Boohoo...this bailout failed...

[TPS]

Lots of wrenching fists and gnashing of teeth about the failed bailout vote. And wow, the markets lost over $1 trillion in equity; so where'd it go?

 

This was not the best package that could be put together, and Paulson should take the blame for the way he (initially) presented it: "Give me $700 billion, no questions asked; else we're doomed! We're doomed, I tell ya..."

That pissed a lot of people off and congress heard from "the poor ignorant masses." It's about damned time the American public got pissed off about something and moved the congress!

 

That said, there will be a bailout bill, and hopefully it won't be so wall street-centric. And the markets will rally.

 

The process of cleansing the system will take some time, and we will probably experience more crises. But we will survive this week, so enjoy a cocktail or two as the Bills get to 5 and 0....

[pBills]

Lots of wrenching fists and gnashing of teeth about the failed bailout vote. And wow, the markets lost over $1 trillion in equity; so where'd it go?

 

This was not the best package that could be put together, and Paulson should take the blame for the way he (initially) presented it: "Give me $700 billion, no questions asked; else we're doomed! We're doomed, I tell ya..."

That pissed a lot of people off and congress heard from "the poor ignorant masses." It's about damned time the American public got pissed off about something and moved the congress!

 

That said, there will be a bailout bill, and hopefully it won't be so wall street-centric. And the markets will rally.

 

The process of cleansing the system will take some time, and we will probably experience more crises. But we will survive this week, so enjoy a cocktail or two as the Bills get to 5 and 0....

 

 

I agree with this 100%

[UConn James]

And wow, the markets lost over $1 trillion in equity; so where'd it go?

 

Did someone check under the couch?

 

This is the sh-- that really gets me shaking my head. Friggin' Wall Street is like Monopoly money. One day it's there and then wup! you just lose a trillion dollars. Gone. Just disappeared like a fart in the wind. But, who knows, maybe it'll be back tomorrow.

 

Wall Street is to economics what astrology is to science.

[finknottle]

Did someone check under the couch?

 

This is the sh-- that really gets me shaking my head. Friggin' Wall Street is like Monopoly money. One day it's there and then wup! you just lose a trillion dollars. Gone. Just disappeared like a fart in the wind. But, who knows, maybe it'll be back tomorrow.

 

Wall Street is to economics what astrology is to science.

 

On the other hand, maybe it was never really there - in terms of actual value, whatever that it - and that the bailout bill (followed by others) would only temporarily keep inflated an overvalued balloon.

 

Maybe we simply have to recognize that property values are 25% overpriced, a game of musical chairs gone awry, end of story.

 

While the ramifications of the cash fluidity crisis are real, failure to accept losses stemming from overvaluation puts us at risk of imitating the disasterous decade-long failure of Japan to clean up its books after the 1990 real estate collapse.

[Max Fischer]

On the other hand, maybe it was never really there - in terms of actual value, whatever that it - and that the bailout bill (followed by others) would only temporarily keep inflated an overvalued balloon.

 

Maybe we simply have to recognize that property values are 25% overpriced, a game of musical chairs gone awry, end of story.

 

While the ramifications of the cash fluidity crisis are real, failure to accept losses stemming from overvaluation puts us at risk of imitating the disasterous decade-long failure of Japan to clean up its books after the 1990 real estate collapse.

 

You either don't own property or assets or you don't get it. Go explain this to your neighbors who are losing a huge chunk of their nest egg, to those who will not be able to buy a home, get an affordable college loan, get credit extensions -- or to the people who work in retail who will get laid off because of the credit crunch, and . . . well, nevermind if you don't get it, you don't get it. Go ahead, keep thinking this is about rich guys on Wall Street. "Remain calm!!!! Nothing to see here!!!!!"

[GG]

This was not the best package that could be put together, and Paulson should take the blame for the way he (initially) presented it: "Give me $700 billion, no questions asked; else we're doomed! We're doomed, I tell ya..."

That pissed a lot of people off and congress heard from "the poor ignorant masses." It's about damned time the American public got pissed off about something and moved the congress!

 

I didn't know it was Paulson's job to draft legislation. I guess he he should be faulted for not doing Congress's job.

 

I also get a laugh at the notion that Paulson needed to dumb down his explanation of how the US financial system works to members of the finance committee of both chambers. If you watched the congressional testimony, the line of pandering questions was ridiculous.

 

BTW, who was the poster who started a thread about Sarah Palin's inexperience? Using that standard, she may be totally unqualified to be Veep, yet be perfectly capable of serving in Congress where she could actually do real damage to America.

[ieatcrayonz]

Did someone check under the couch?

 

This is the sh-- that really gets me shaking my head. Friggin' Wall Street is like Monopoly money. One day it's there and then wup! you just lose a trillion dollars. Gone. Just disappeared like a fart in the wind. But, who knows, maybe it'll be back tomorrow.

 

Wall Street is to economics what astrology is to science.

It's pretty hard to understand for college kids but take my word for it, once you get out in the real world, it gets easier to figure out. Most people never understand 100% of it, but pretty much everyone benefits from actual life experience. You'll get there.

 

Avtually, your aqnalogy isn't half bad. Not great, but not bad. We can learn a lot of science from knowing about Mars and Jupiter and comets and stuff, but we can't get it all from there. Also, we can learn a lot about economics from Wall Street, but not everything. Good job.

[finknottle]

You either don't own property or assets or you don't get it. Go explain this to your neighbors who are losing a huge chunk of their nest egg, to those who will not be able to buy a home, get an affordable college loan, get credit extensions -- or to the people who work in retail who will get laid off because of the credit crunch, and . . . well, nevermind if you don't get it, you don't get it. Go ahead, keep thinking this is about rich guys on Wall Street. "Remain calm!!!! Nothing to see here!!!!!"

 

I bought a house 18 months ago - now down 25% - and (having no pension) had my entire retirement take a hit on the market yesterday. By my estimate, my retirement date was just pushed back four years if the market doesn't recover.

 

I can either join your pity party and demand that the taxpayers pony up to replace mine and everybody elses losses (me being the disporportionate taxpayer) and keep funneling money to prop up market values, or I can face the fact that my property was over-priced and it will take a decade or more to get back to what I paid for it.

 

So forgive me if I'd rather just swim to shore than sit in your leakey ship bailing water.

[finknottle]

BTW, who was the poster who started a thread about Sarah Palin's inexperience? Using that standard, she may be totally unqualified to be Veep, yet be perfectly capable of serving in Congress where she could actually do real damage to America.

 

That's why the issue of Obama's inexperience never came up until now.

 

(A first-term community organizer from Chicago is *just* what we need to chair the Afghanistan committee!)

[TPS]

I didn't know it was Paulson's job to draft legislation. I guess he he should be faulted for not doing Congress's job.

 

I also get a laugh at the notion that Paulson needed to dumb down his explanation of how the US financial system works to members of the finance committee of both chambers. If you watched the congressional testimony, the line of pandering questions was ridiculous.

 

BTW, who was the poster who started a thread about Sarah Palin's inexperience? Using that standard, she may be totally unqualified to be Veep, yet be perfectly capable of serving in Congress where she could actually do real damage to America.

It's Paulson's job to let Congress know the extent of the crisis, and work with them to craft a solution, but he did not present it that way. He, bush and bernanke essentially "threatened congress" to accept his three-page proposal last week, else all hell would break loose. Fortunately they weren't able pull a "patriot act" on congress this time.

 

Not sure who started a thread about her inexerience. I started one though about what a complete idiot she is...

[erynthered]

Fortunately they weren't able pull a "patriot act" on congress this time.

 

Didnt that take 18 or 19 months to complete?

[Max Fischer]

I bought a house 18 months ago - now down 25% - and (having no pension) had my entire retirement take a hit on the market yesterday. By my estimate, my retirement date was just pushed back four years if the market doesn't recover.

 

I can either join your pity party and demand that the taxpayers pony up to replace mine and everybody elses losses (me being the disporportionate taxpayer) and keep funneling money to prop up market values, or I can face the fact that my property was over-priced and it will take a decade or more to get back to what I paid for it.

 

So forgive me if I'd rather just swim to shore than sit in your leakey ship bailing water.

 

 

Typical response - "this is someone else's problem." Explain that to your neighbors who don't have time to make it up. Don't you get that we on the ship TOGETHER and were miles from shore in rough seas? Either we all start bailing or we kiss our collective butts good bye. BTW, you and other still don't get that this a "loan" and not a give-away, right? And if we don't do something to shore up the credit markets a devalued house could be the least of your worries.

[Lurker]

BTW, who was the poster who started a thread about Sarah Palin's inexperience? Using that standard, she may be totally unqualified to be Veep, yet be perfectly capable of serving in Congress where she could actually do real damage to America.

Gotta agree with you there...

[Mike in Syracuse]

It needed to fail. Putting the cost of corporate greed on the backs of the taxpayers is wrong regardless of your party affiliation.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

Lots of wrenching fists and gnashing of teeth about the failed bailout vote. And wow, the markets lost over $1 trillion in equity; so where'd it go?

 

This was not the best package that could be put together, and Paulson should take the blame for the way he (initially) presented it: "Give me $700 billion, no questions asked; else we're doomed! We're doomed, I tell ya..."

That pissed a lot of people off and congress heard from "the poor ignorant masses." It's about damned time the American public got pissed off about something and moved the congress!

 

That said, there will be a bailout bill, and hopefully it won't be so wall street-centric. And the markets will rally.

 

The process of cleansing the system will take some time, and we will probably experience more crises. But we will survive this week, so enjoy a cocktail or two as the Bills get to 5 and 0....

 

This begs one those... at the end of the day... it will all come out in the wash... if we just take it one "game"... at a time...

[finknottle]

Typical response - "this is someone else's problem." Explain that to your neighbors who don't have time to make it up. Don't you get that we on the ship TOGETHER and were miles from shore in rough seas? Either we all start bailing or we kiss our collective butts good bye. BTW, you and other still don't get that this a "loan" and not a give-away, right? And if we don't do something to shore up the credit markets a devalued house could be the least of your worries.

 

Talk to me after they start bailing too - I'd be more sympathetic, but I'm sick of carrying the load. Where do you think the money will come from? The pockets of those responsible enough forgo living beyond their means and not to extend themselves. You would have me fund my neighbors so that they can continue to live as I do, but on handouts.

 

38% of households pay no income tax or receive a net credit. I'd be willing to bet that most of the forclosures fall within that grouping. I want to see them pay for their mistakes before I am forced to kick in for them too.

 

There are two arguments for the bailout. The macro implications of the liquidity problem in the financial community are serious, and might be enough to make me grimace and pay. But the argument that the money should go to prevent forclosures and inherently insolvant companies, because people are hurting as a result of their own financial choices, only makes me defiant.

[Max Fischer]

Talk to me after they start bailing too - I'd be more sympathetic, but I'm sick of carrying the load. Where do you think the money will come from? The pockets of those responsible enough forgo living beyond their means and not to extend themselves. You would have me fund my neighbors so that they can continue to live as I do, but on handouts.

 

I hear ya, but you (America) needs to get over the idea that your side of the ship won't sink, too.

 

38% of households pay no income tax or receive a net credit. I'd be willing to bet that most of the forclosures fall within that grouping. I want to see them pay for their mistakes before I am forced to kick in for them too.

 

Actually, most of the problem doesn't fall in that group. Close but not quite. Mostly middle-class who bought way too much house. But it's not just housing alone -- it's credit in general, and about a dozen other factors. In reality, it's hard to find many Americans who haven't contributed to the crisis one way or the other.

 

There are two arguments for the bailout. The macro implications of the liquidity problem in the financial community are serious, and might be enough to make me grimace and pay. But the argument that the money should go to prevent forclosures and inherently insolvant companies, because people are hurting as a result of their own financial choices, only makes me defiant.

 

Problem is you can't segregate the two. Your neighbor may have over extended himself but his problems will be your problem soon. There was a good analogy on CNBC: just because your neighbor's carelessness contributed to his house catching on fire doesn't mean you can ignore it since it may burn yours down as well.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

Talk to me after they start bailing too - I'd be more sympathetic, but I'm sick of carrying the load. Where do you think the money will come from? The pockets of those responsible enough forgo living beyond their means and not to extend themselves. You would have me fund my neighbors so that they can continue to live as I do, but on handouts.

 

38% of households pay no income tax or receive a net credit. I'd be willing to bet that most of the forclosures fall within that grouping. I want to see them pay for their mistakes before I am forced to kick in for them too.

 

There are two arguments for the bailout. The macro implications of the liquidity problem in the financial community are serious, and might be enough to make me grimace and pay. But the argument that the money should go to prevent forclosures and inherently insolvant companies, because people are hurting as a result of their own financial choices, only makes me defiant.

 

You sound like one of those guys crying about welfare cheats, they aren't getting rich by their behavior. I don't approve of it, but dude those folks in financial distress over this hardly had any money to begin with and because these home prices were being bid up irrationally by everyone else making a buck off their hard earned wages, the least you could do is provide some assistance to their desire to own their own little dump.

 

Please, get off your high horse. Unless you love in the mid-west, and then you truly don't understand.

 

So let me educate you. Home prices skyrocketed within about 50 miles of the coast making it impossible for many low income folks to buy a home and when they tried they got stuck with a high interest loan in a low interest market on a house that wasn't worth it, but they were told this was their nest egg. So when the housing market really crashed and their loans went up because there were things like a 3 year no-interest loan.

 

Now I am not saying there aren't plenty of people who got in over their heads and should deal with the consequences, but it will be hard to differentiate and heck it won't hurt the economy to stabilize the housing industry...You can't eat self-righteousness, but you can get drunk off it.

[finknottle]

You sound like one of those guys crying about welfare cheats, they aren't getting rich by their behavior...

 

So let me educate you. Home prices skyrocketed within about 50 miles of the coast making it impossible for many high income folks to buy a home and when they tried they got stuck with a high interest loan in a low interest market on a house that wasn't worth it, but they were told this was their nest egg. So when the housing market really crashed and their loans went up because there were things like a 3 year no-interest loan.

 

Are you as sympathetic to that narrative? It's true too. High income people also rely on their house and their portfolio as their nest egg, even more so than the poor - they are less likely to have pensions. Or are the missteps of the poor inherently more acceptable than the missteps of the rich?

[finknottle]

I hear ya, but you (America) needs to get over the idea that your side of the ship won't sink, too.

 

What exactly is the message for those who live simply, within their means, and avoid debt? That they should sacrifice further to ensure that everybody but them can continue to live in a house bigger than their means warrants? Is this the whole Biden 'patriotism' thing?

 

When you are punished for being financially responsible, maybe it is time to simply abandon the ship. How are the tax-heavy states like NY doing, by the way?