Historical Game of the Week

[rockpile]

The number is a little low. I remember a $100 fee that nobody paid. It was not until later in the decade before the league really started requiring franchises to pay their fee, in order to eliminate the weaker clubs.

 

Ooops!

 

I never heard that story. The timing does not seem correct for that to happen. (I am talking about Halas, not the Staleys to Bears stuff). Ironically, it was the Staleys who defeated Buffalo for the 1921 APFA championship.

 

I read the Lyons/Halas story in a book from the library. Low print and rare - could not check it out. A guy I know with a card shop called the Hot Stove League also had a copy but it was not for sale. Halas definitely did not make the Jeffersons and did go to Decatur. It was a few years before the Syrup company sold him the team.

 

Picky...picky... Of course, you would be incorrect to call the Tonawanda Kardex an NFL team if you followed that logic, since Tonawanda only had a team in 1921 (and earlier, but that does not help your argument, either).

 

I am drawing from memory here and do not have the depth of research you have on football history, no argument!

[KRC]

I read the Lyons/Halas story in a book from the library. Low print and rare - could not check it out. A guy I know with a card shop called the Hot Stove League also had a copy but it was not for sale. Halas definitely did not make the Jeffersons and did go to Decatur. It was a few years before the Syrup company sold him the team.

 

If it was this book, then you should not believe the story about Halas. Dr. March had a habit of creating stories in order to make football history sound better. If someone had this book, I can imagine that it was not for sale, since it is a rare book. Leo also had a habit of creating stories, so you could not always believe everything that he said.

 

I know that he was not on the Jeffersons and that he signed with Decatur. The problem I have with the story is that the Jeffersons did not have a lot of talent. If Halas tried out for the team, he would have definitely made it. He also would have been a good promotional tool for Leo, so there is no way that Leo would have let him leave.

 

Now, I know that Halas and Lyons were good friends, but I am not sure when they met. I will try to do some digging to see how valid the story is about Halas and the Jeffersons. I have semi-regular contact with Leo's family, so I will ask them.

[JinWPB]

Stuff like this is another reason why the "Wall" ROCKS and other teams fan boards are just WEAK!

[Taro T]

Great stuff Ken. Keep it coming.

[rockpile]

If it was this book, then you should not believe the story about Halas. Dr. March had a habit of creating stories in order to make football history sound better. If someone had this book, I can imagine that it was not for sale, since it is a rare book. Leo also had a habit of creating stories, so you could not always believe everything that he said.

 

I know that he was not on the Jeffersons and that he signed with Decatur. The problem I have with the story is that the Jeffersons did not have a lot of talent. If Halas tried out for the team, he would have definitely made it. He also would have been a good promotional tool for Leo, so there is no way that Leo would have let him leave.

 

Now, I know that Halas and Lyons were good friends, but I am not sure when they met. I will try to do some digging to see how valid the story is about Halas and the Jeffersons. I have semi-regular contact with Leo's family, so I will ask them.

 

It was definitely not that book. It was a small hardcover that centered on early football history with an emphasis on western NY, especially Rochester.

 

I will dig through my "stuff" and see if I can come up with a name. I did most of my research in the late 1980's - early 90's, and the internet was not an available tool for me. Most of what I have was from legwork: library copies, microfiche print, old magazines, etc.

[rockpile]

Great stuff, Ken!

 

I am still pissed at you are not running for President again.

 

I thought I would try something new. Each week, I thought I would dig into the archives to talk about a game involving the Bills' next opponent. Since the Bills are playing the Cardinals this week, I thought I would go WAAAAY back to the early days of the NFL and talk about the first game played between the Cardinals and a Buffalo professional football team. On November 5, 1922 the Buffalo All-Americans traveled to Chicago to play the Cardinals.

 

Here is the link to where I will be archiving these games:

Historical Game of the Week

 

The actual game write-up is here: Buffalo All-Americans vs Chicago Cardinals (PDF)

 

In the coming weeks, I will gauge the reaction to see if this should be a regular feature. Feedback is welcome. If people like this feature, I will do it every week. For the bye week, I will focus on other teams in Western and Central New York. With next week's bye, I will talk about the Syracuse Athletic Association of the 1890s.

[KRC]

It was definitely not that book. It was a small hardcover that centered on early football history with an emphasis on western NY, especially Rochester.

 

I will dig through my "stuff" and see if I can come up with a name. I did most of my research in the late 1980's - early 90's, and the internet was not an available tool for me. Most of what I have was from legwork: library copies, microfiche print, old magazines, etc.

 

Then, you are probably talking about this book. I have a copy at home, so I can look it up in that book.

[KRC]

I am still pissed at you are not running for President again.

 

Hey, everyone had their chance in 2004, but the election was stolen from me. I'm still bitter.

[Beerball]

Hey, everyone had their chance in 2004, but the election was stolen from me. I'm still bitter.

Iffin you had listened to your champaign manager..."a six in every fridge" you woulda been a shoe in. But you had to take the 'high' road.

[NicholasCal1]

two thums up for sure

[rockpile]

Then, you are probably talking about this book. I have a copy at home, so I can look it up in that book.

 

I would love a description of the book. I remember it was a fairly small (9" x 6" maybe) cloth hard cover with a tan or faded orange color. Some chapter titles were"

 

The Grown-up Game

Bulldogs, Tigers and Boilermakers

One Game, One Football

 

I have a photocopy of an article from the Rochester D&C stamped "Jan 22 1960" with an interview with Leo Lyons. It says Lyons was at the organization meeting of the American Professional Football Association in 1919 in Canton Ohio (Rochester, Akron, Dayton, Columbus, and Canton). Franchise fee was $25 ! It became the NFL in 1921.

 

Lyons also said he turned down George Halas, who applied for a job as an end for $75 a game. He said he had two good ends already and did not know anything about Halas at the time.

 

Another article I copied (someone wrote RVF - Sports - History on it) says that his franchise fee, in 1921 when he joined the NFL, was $75. It also quotes Lyons as turning Halas down in 1923 and that he still had the "wire" from Halas. This was also around 1960.

 

THIS is a better copy than what I have of the Jefferson's 1923 franchise document.

 

Enough archives for tonight!

 

[KRC]

I would love a description of the book. I remember it was a fairly small (9" x 6" maybe) cloth hard cover with a tan or faded orange color. Some chapter titles were"

 

The Grown-up Game

Bulldogs, Tigers and Boilermakers

One Game, One Football

 

It is a small book that covers football in Rochester from the beginnings to 1929. The final chapter is an overview of football in Rochester from 1930 to 1949. The book was small (slightly smaller than 6x9), with a blue cloth hardcover with yellow/gold lettering. Lots of information crammed into a small book (less than 100 pages).

 

 

 

I have a photocopy of an article from the Rochester D&C stamped "Jan 22 1960" with an interview with Leo Lyons. It says Lyons was at the organization meeting of the American Professional Football Association in 1919 in Canton Ohio (Rochester, Akron, Dayton, Columbus, and Canton). Franchise fee was $25 ! It became the NFL in 1921.

 

One thing to keep in mind about Leo is that he had an affinity for embellishing the truth. Here is what happened. It is an excerpt from my upcoming book on the Jeffersons. Please excuse the bad writing as I have not edited it yet.

 

Even though it had been attempted previously, 1920 saw yet another push to form a professional football league. Teams in the mythical “Ohio League” saw clubs from other parts of the country draw more fans to the games, which obviously translates to increased attendance and increased revenue for the teams participating. The fear was that more talented players would be drawn away from the smaller Ohio towns to other cities in search of larger salaries. Something needed to be done to keep the Ohio teams on a competitive level with organizations from outside of the Buckeye state.

 

The first step was taken on August 20, 1920, when four of the Ohio League teams met at Ralph Hay’s Hupmobile dealership in Canton, Ohio. Hay owned the Canton Bulldogs and was joined by his star player Jim Thorpe. Also at the meeting were Frank Nied and Art Ranney of Akron¹, Jimmy O’Donnell and Stanley Cofall of the Cleveland Tigers, and Carl Storck of the Dayton Triangles. Since no minutes were recorded for this meeting, the final outcome is a bit of a mystery, but a few things could be ascertained from media accounts of the event. First, the name of their new “league” was to be called the American Professional Football Conference and Hay was elected Secretary. Now, the focus could shift to the major issues facing these teams. Players were running from team to team to collect a paycheck. The members wanted this to stop and agreed to refrain from enticing players to leave their current club. Next, they needed to get player salaries under control, so they introduced a salary cap. Finally, they needed to address the increasing row between colleges and professional clubs with respect to undergraduate players. Colleges increasingly frowned on their players involving themselves in professional contests. The members of the league agreed to not allow these undergraduates to play on their squads. Now that all of the major issues were addressed, they needed to get outside clubs to join and agree to the aforementioned stipulations.

 

All of the work that came out of the meeting would be for naught if only the four attending clubs were members of the league. They needed to bring in the organizations they most feared would induce their players to leave. Hay was responsible for contacting top-notch professional clubs in the surrounding states to have them attend the next meeting. Before that, however, the league received letters from three clubs, expressing interest in joining. The first was from Leo Lyons of the Jeffersons. Actually, it is not absolutely certain that the letter was from the Jeffersons, but since they were by far the strongest Rochester team, it can be assumed that it was from the Jeffersons. Couple this with the fact that Leo Lyons attended the follow-up meeting to the August 20th affair; it is safe to say that the letter was from the Jeffersons. Leo had always pushed for a league and when he heard that there was the possibility of one forming, it is assumed that he jumped at the chance to participate and sent the letter. The second letter was from Buffalo. Again, since no meeting minutes were recorded, there is no way to be absolutely certain who wrote the letter, but it is assumed that it was the Buffalo All-Americans, who were essentially the 1919 Buffalo Prospects under new management. The third letter was from Hammond, but it is unclear as to which Hammond team sent the letter. The Hammond Pros attended the second league meeting, but the Hammond Bobcats were a strong contender in the area. The question remains open at this time.

 

The second league meeting was held September 17, 1920 in Canton. Hay and Thorpe were there, along with previous attendees Nied, Ranney, Storck, Cofall and O’Donnell. New to the meeting was Leo Lyons, Doc Young of the Hammond Pros, Walter Flanigan of the Rock Island Independents, Earl Ball of the Muncie Flyers, George Halas and Morgan O’Brien of the Decatur Staleys and Chris O’Brien of the Chicago Cardinals. One of the first items to come out of this meeting was to change the name of the league to the American Professional Football Association. Next up was to choose the leadership. Jim Thorpe was elected as president, Stanley Cofall was elected vice-president and Art Ranney took the secretary-treasurer position. With the leadership in place, they could now get down to the details. Young, Flanigan, Storck and Cofall were responsible for drawing up a constitution and bylaws. It was also decided that each team would provide a list of all players used during the 1920 season and that this list was to be provided to Art Ranney (Association secretary) by January 1, 1921. This was in reference to teams enticing players to jump teams, the only of the three items that actually address the reasons why the league was formed. The league shaped up as follows: Akron Pros, Buffalo All-Americans², Canton Bulldogs, Chicago Cardinals, Chicago Tigers, Cleveland Tigers, Columbus Panhandles, Dayton Triangles, Decatur Staleys, Detroit Heralds, Hammond Pros, Muncie Flyers, Rochester Jeffersons and Rock Island Independents. All that is left is to play the games.

 

¹ Nied and Ranney were forming a team to replace the 1919 Akron Indians, who disbanded.

² There is no proof that Buffalo was an official member until 1921, but they are listed in the official NFL standings for 1920, so they are included.

 

 

 

 

Lyons also said he turned down George Halas, who applied for a job as an end for $75 a game. He said he had two good ends already and did not know anything about Halas at the time.

 

Did he say what year this was?

 

 

 

Another article I copied (someone wrote RVF - Sports - History on it) says that his franchise fee, in 1921 when he joined the NFL, was $75. It also quotes Lyons as turning Halas down in 1923 and that he still had the "wire" from Halas. This was also around 1960.

 

Does this answer my question from above? If so, how the hell could he not know who Halas was in 1923? Is there any way you could get me copies of those articles?

 

 

 

THIS is a better copy than what I have of the Jefferson's 1923 franchise document.

 

That original copy is in the possession of Leo's grandson. He supplied it to me for the Jeffs website, as well as the other photos and memorabilia for the site.

[KRC]

I would like to thank everyone for the positive comments. I will continue this feature for the rest of the season.

[rockpile]

It is a small book that covers football in Rochester from the beginnings to 1929. The final chapter is an overview of football in Rochester from 1930 to 1949. The book was small (slightly smaller than 6x9), with a blue cloth hardcover with yellow/gold lettering. Lots of information crammed into a small book (less than 100 pages).

 

That sounds like the book. I could easily mistake the color. If you could check it in your spare time to see if it has these chapters, I would be sure.

The Grown-up Game

Bulldogs, Tigers and Boilermakers

One Game, One Football

 

Good luck finding another copy!

 

One thing to keep in mind about Leo is that he had an affinity for embellishing the truth.

 

I am also keeping in mind that we was in his early 80's when they spoke with him. I think he founded the Jeffersons in 1908, and the article was from 1960.

 

Here is what happened. It is an excerpt from my upcoming book on the Jeffersons. Please excuse the bad writing as I have not edited it yet.

 

It reads well and matches much of what I have read. I want an autographed copy when it comes out!

 

Would you like an article I wrote for TBD on Henry "Motorcycle" McDonald?

 

I will scan my news articles and see how they come out. I should be abe to e-mail them.

[KRC]

That sounds like the book. I could easily mistake the color. If you could check it in your spare time to see if it has these chapters, I would be sure.

The Grown-up Game

Bulldogs, Tigers and Boilermakers

One Game, One Football

 

I will check when I get home.

 

Good luck finding another copy!

 

Good thing I already have a copy. Mine is also autographed by the author.

 

 

 

It reads well and matches much of what I have read. I want an autographed copy when it comes out!

 

No problem. It will be a few years, since I have to finish by book on the original Buffalo Bills first. Then, Zeke O'Connor (48 Bills) asked me to write his biography, so I will be doing that next. The Jeffs will probably be after that.

 

 

 

Would you like an article I wrote for TBD on Henry "Motorcycle" McDonald?

 

Of course!! Thank you.

 

I will scan my news articles and see how they come out. I should be abe to e-mail them.

 

 

Thank you.

[KRC]

That sounds like the book. I could easily mistake the color. If you could check it in your spare time to see if it has these chapters, I would be sure.

The Grown-up Game

Bulldogs, Tigers and Boilermakers

One Game, One Football

 

It's not the same book.