Presidential Debate

[tennesseeboy]

Of course. (And thanks for the "partly". That's more nuance than most people I discuss it with understand.) I wasn't suggesting it was a good solution...merely suggesting that it's an objective measure that allows us to declare victory and get out leaving a vague approximation of "stable" behind us (forget democracy. Can't "Export Democracy". It's a contradiction in terms, forcing free choice on people.)

 

The reality is that the moment we're completely disengaged (at the latest), Turkey invades the Kurdish north, Iran starts exercising their influence in the Shi'ia regions, the Arab states counter with support to the Sunnis, and the country probably falls apart. The entire Iraqi misadventure is rooted in no small part in the complete misunderstanding of the tribal nature of the region and the stupid American belief that everyone else in the world is just a misguided American who needs to be shown The Way. By our national attitude, "success" (free, stable democracy with whom were bestest friends forever) is completely unattainable. I'm perfectly satisfied with "There, you have law and order, and basic services. You figure out the rest."

I was arguing that before this frigging war began. This administration is great for failing to look to the inevitable results of their actions before they act, whether it be the war in Iraq, regulation of Wall Street, or this silly bailout. Now we can either get out now and the inevitable will happen, or we can wait, spend a lot more money and lose a lot more lives (and continue to arm the various participants.) and then pull out...at which time the inevitable will happen.

[DC Tom]

I'd agree. It's not black and white; and therein lies the problem. By stating we won't sit down and talk - period, then you're trying to make it black and white - do what we want or we won't play.

 

 

 

Either way, I guess I'd rather have someone try to talk out the problems before they go in guns blazing; rather than shoot first and ask questions later. But that's just me.

 

And it's only rhetoric. Not even the Bush administration is that black and white on the issue. McCain's no more going to arbitrarily refuse to talk to Iran or North Korea any more than Obama's going to unreservedly talk with them.

 

Like I said, both these guys do understand the nuances of diplomacy. They just don't campaign on it, because shades of grey don't sell, and because the idiot extremists set the tone of the political debate in this country.

[Acantha]

Actually, I think Obama did a decent job citing the difference between "preparations" and "preconditions". The USA hasn't had talks with, or recognized Cuba for years (and China before them)...yet the rest of the world does (did). This kind of attitude is no longer useful in the modern world, IMO.

Exactly. After the mess between the Iraq wars, we really should have learned our lesson. We cut off ties, sanctioned them, basically destroyed them economically all in the hopes the people would have no choice but to overthrow the government. In the end, all it did was kill hundreds of thousands (some say in to the millions, but I think the better estimates are in the 350,000 range) of civilians. That type of thing doesn't work anymore. As you pointed out, Cuba is another great example, and so is N. Korea (although in those cases it's even worse because we're the only ones). Yet we're heading the same way in Iran.

[DC Tom]

I was arguing that before this frigging war began. This administration is great for failing to look to the inevitable results of their actions before they act, whether it be the war in Iraq, regulation of Wall Street, or this silly bailout. Now we can either get out now and the inevitable will happen, or we can wait, spend a lot more money and lose a lot more lives (and continue to arm the various participants.) and then pull out...at which time the inevitable will happen.

 

Really? I must have missed it in all your "FLIGHTSUIT! HALLIBURTON! NOSE PICK! GOAT STORY!" horseshit.

[tennesseeboy]

I see you have managed to keep that cheerful collegial attitude. However we can agree or not. see?

[The Dean]

And it's only rhetoric. Not even the Bush administration is that black and white on the issue. McCain's no more going to arbitrarily refuse to talk to Iran or North Korea any more than Obama's going to unreservedly talk with them.

 

Like I said, both these guys do understand the nuances of diplomacy. They just don't campaign on it, because shades of grey don't sell, and because the idiot extremists set the tone of the political debate in this country.

 

 

And, there you have it.

 

And, now we return to the "all sound bite" coverage of the election...

[CTBillsGuy]

Here's the thing. If you like paying taxes, vote for Obamaa. 95% of us will get atax break and all of this good stuff he proposes will happen? 2+2=22

[Dibs]

I think the bolded portion is perhaps the most important question. Is that where her country needs her? Do we still need to be in Iraq? If yes, when do we no longer need to be there?......

I think you may have taken what she said out of context. I read it that she has made a commitment to the armed forces & would honour that commitment by going and doing what is asked of her by her superiors.

 

I often feel that people misunderstand what a democracy is. It is not a system designed for the masses to vote on every decision.....it is a system that allows the masses to periodically chose the decision makers.

[The Dean]

I think you may have taken what she said out of context. I read it that she has made a commitment to the armed forces & would honour that commitment by going and doing what is asked of her by her superiors.

 

I often feel that people misunderstand what a democracy is. It is not a system designed for the massesto vote on every decision.....it is a system that allows the masses to periodically chose the decision makers.

 

 

Well, that is certainly what Representative Democracy is, and the USA is a Republic based on the ideas of representative democracy.

[The Dean]

Here's the thing. If you like paying taxes, vote for Obamaa. 95% of us will get atax break and all of this good stuff he proposes will happen? 2+2=22

 

 

 

Here's the thing. If you like having our children dying in another country for war monger-leaders who lie to their constituents about the reasons for the conflicts, want to destroy the current system of many employers paying for the health insurance for their employees and can't wait to drive the country even further into debt, vote for McCain. Those are the likely outcomes of all the bad stuff he is proposing, and the continuation of the current policies he supports. McCain = War = Dead Americans and Massive Debt

 

 

Wow. That's fun! Let's all just make sweeping generalizations, based on the sound-bites we hear from our favorite media pundits.

[X. Benedict]

The problem with sitting down with someone is you almost give credence to their beliefs and their actions when you do so, I'm not sure why folks have such a hard time understanding this line of reasoning.

 

Shall we sit down with Osama Bin Laden and discuss peace?

 

Diplomacy is a means of getting what you want.

 

If Osama Bin Laden is willing to sit down to discuss how he should be killed and his organization dismantled, we should do it.

 

And all this nonsense aside, Iran and the US potentially have huge areas of mutual interest as it pertains to theater politics, Iraqi border issues and potentially trade......remember all those years of talks with the Soviet Union when we still had missiles pointed at each other.

 

Good diplomacy isn't about giving away, it is about getting more.

[Guest dog14787]

 

Here's the thing. If you like having our children dying in another country for war monger-leaders who lie to their constituents about the reasons for the conflicts, want to destroy the current system of many employers paying for the health insurance for their employees and can't wait to drive the country even further into debt, vote for McCain. Those are the likely outcomes of all the bad stuff he is proposing, and the continuation of the current policies he supports. McCain = War = Dead Americans and Massive Debt

 

Wow. That's fun! Let's all just make sweeping generalizations, based on the sound-bites we hear from our favorite media pundits.

 

 

Lets forget politics for today, ITS GAMEDAY

[Jdorn]

I turned off the spin doctors right after the debate and went to the BBC site. It was interesting to see what the other nations of the world thought of the debate. They mostly favored Obama and the main issue of concern was the US rebuilding credibility in the world. We are widely viewed as the bully forcing our will on other nations.

[tennesseeboy]

Boils down to this. McCain is a Republican running on a Republican platform with Republican lobbyists and advisors and if elected will keep most of the executive branch in place replacing some with his own people (like Phil Gramm, for instance.). Obama is a democrat running on a democrat platform with dem lobbyists and advisors and will clean house putting in democrats (people like Rubin, Clinton etc.) I kind of liked the economy when the dems ran it. I kind of liked our foreign policy when the dems ran it. I kind of liked the centrist Supreme Court justices appointed when the dems ran it. It really isn't all THAT much about McCain or Obama. If it were I'd think twice about a guy who managed to destroy five airplanes and whose claim to fame is crashing and getting captured and who graduated at the bottom of his class versus a guy who was editor of the Harvard Law Review, teaches at Chicago Law and earned his chops as a community activist. I think Biden is fine but worry about Palin as I have not been impressed with the last governor of an extremely large state and no real foreign policy experience who tried to run the country.

[erynthered]

Since last Jan I've stayed away from the board on weekends. Now I remember why. I thought I'd peek in here after the debate, if you'd call it that.

 

You lemmings are amazing. They're both a waste of a vote. Drink up idiots!!

[Acantha]

Since last Jan I've stayed away from the board on weekends. Now I remember why. I thought I'd peek in here after the debate, if you'd call it that.

 

You lemmings are amazing. They're both a waste of a vote. Drink up idiots!!

So you stay away from the board on weekends so that you don't post pointless things in threads you don't like?

 

Seems like a good rule.

[Guest dog14787]

So you stay away from the board on weekends so that you don't post pointless things in threads you don't like?

 

Seems like a good rule.

 

 

 

Enjoy the game fellas

[Johnny Coli]

Since last Jan I've stayed away from the board on weekends. Now I remember why. I thought I'd peek in here after the debate, if you'd call it that.

 

You lemmings are amazing. They're both a waste of a vote. Drink up idiots!!

Then don't vote. That'll show us lemmings that we're the idiots.

[tennesseeboy]

Since last Jan I've stayed away from the board on weekends. Now I remember why. I thought I'd peek in here after the debate, if you'd call it that.

 

You lemmings are amazing. They're both a waste of a vote. Drink up idiots!!

I would drink up, but your pinhead president just gave all my beer money for the next five generations to AIG and Lehman Bros!

[/dev/null]

I would drink up, but your pinhead president just gave all my beer money for the next five generations to AIG and Lehman Bros!

 

While we raise a toast to the pinhead president in honor of this achievement, let's not forget the most ethical congress, the maverick sticking it to the system, and the blessing of the messiah