Stolen Honor -by Carlton Sherwood

[Alaska Darin]

Yes, my allegience is to the United States. Yours is to the United Nations. Also, nothing in this answer is related to my point. You guys just can not answer the question.

 

"Is it acceptable to you, that J. Kerry's testimony was used as a tool by N. Vietnamese interrogators to help extract confessions from American POW's?"

 

Yes or no?

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Flightsuit! Halliburton!

[VabeachBledsoefan]

I almost can't believe you wrote that, then I considered the source. You really DON'T have a clue, do you? Somehow, because you "like" Kerry or don't "like" Bush, or something in between, you can rationalize a guy being hauled out of his tiger cage and getting beaten because he won't agree to what Mr. Kerry was saying about the war.

 

And you think Kerry is the hero here. There's a thing within the military known as the Code of Conduct. It's a formal thing, you get refreshed on it annually. You don't capitulate. It's not about John Wayne stuff, it's because it's been a time honed technique that if you can break a few people, you have leverage on the rest. There is unity in strength. Nothing like having videos of Mr. Three Purple Hearts  telling Congress about war crimes, playing in front of an emaciated, physically injured A-6 pilot being beaten because he won't sign a "confession".

 

You, and people like you just-don't-get-it. And you want him as Commander in Chief. He was aware of the implications to those held captive when he did his grandstanding, as he received the training. He didn't care. Those in the Hanoi Hilton were expendable to him in his interests of running for public office in Mass.

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BiB...a great post...but please share your experience in a war zone as compared to John Kerry. I'm sorry....you make think there is some holy than thou code of conduct, but in my 20 years of Navy experience, it was more like the codeof "lets see how little we can do and get paid for it". Be honest the majority of enlisted military members are uneducated and robots to superiors. I saw many sailors that did the minimum in their jobs, sorry, the code of conduct must have been on a break during my 20 years.

[_BiB_]

BiB...a great post...but please share your experience in a war zone as compared to John Kerry.  I'm sorry....you make think there is some holy than thou code of conduct, but in my 20 years of Navy experience, it was more like the codeof "lets see how little we can do and get paid for it".  Be honest the majority of enlisted military members are uneducated and robots to superiors.  I saw many sailors that did the minimum in their jobs, sorry, the code of conduct must have been on a break during my 20 years.

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I'd love to take the bait, but I can't compare my experiences to Kerrys. Apples and oranges. They are also somewhat private.

[Alaska Darin]

BiB...a great post...but please share your experience in a war zone as compared to John Kerry.  I'm sorry....you make think there is some holy than thou code of conduct, but in my 20 years of Navy experience, it was more like the codeof "lets see how little we can do and get paid for it".  Be honest the majority of enlisted military members are uneducated and robots to superiors.  I saw many sailors that did the minimum in their jobs, sorry, the code of conduct must have been on a break during my 20 years.

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I'm sorry your service was that way. It has much to do with actual leadership, instead of lip service to same.

 

I can't compare my service to John Kerry's because I didn't serve with him. I know there aren't ANY circumstances that would've made me come back and discredit every other soldier, sailor, airmen, and marine with propaganda and lies.

[RCow]

I almost can't believe you wrote that, then I considered the source. You really DON'T have a clue, do you? Somehow, because you "like" Kerry or don't "like" Bush, or something in between, you can rationalize a guy being hauled out of his tiger cage and getting beaten because he won't agree to what Mr. Kerry was saying about the war.

 

And you think Kerry is the hero here. There's a thing within the military known as the Code of Conduct. It's a formal thing, you get refreshed on it annually. You don't capitulate. It's not about John Wayne stuff, it's because it's been a time honed technique that if you can break a few people, you have leverage on the rest. There is unity in strength. Nothing like having videos of Mr. Three Purple Hearts  telling Congress about war crimes, playing in front of an emaciated, physically injured A-6 pilot being beaten because he won't sign a "confession".

 

You, and people like you just-don't-get-it. And you want him as Commander in Chief. He was aware of the implications to those held captive when he did his grandstanding, as he received the training. He didn't care. Those in the Hanoi Hilton were expendable to him in his interests of running for public office in Mass.

83976[/snapback]

 

Gee, nothing like a straw man to fight, eh BiB? That was pretty easy considering it was nothing, zero, nada to do with what I said. You can go ahead and pretend in your head that I meant or said or implied anything you wrote but it's either a lie or a hallucination.

 

If you really think Kerry didn't care about the POWs then there is nothing to discuss.

[RCow]

There's a little more history at work than that.

 

Richie likes to pretend he's part of the solution and that he can hold something over me because I refuse to discuss my vote, though I have stated numerous times in the past that I no longer vote for Democrats or Republicans because the two parties are so corrupt that the country they supposedly care about is 2nd fiddle to winning partisan battles.

 

He pansies away from the board after getting swatted around for being a hypocrite. 

 

He likes to pretend that backing a traitorous scumbag because he has a chance to win is good for the country.  Thankfully our Founding Fathers had some sack.

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You see AD, you are coward. Plain and simple. You play the coward's game of criticizing everyone and everything (yes, both sides) yet in 10,000 posts have done nothing, absolutely nothing to explain or offer an alternative. You whine about how the country is going into the crapper yet you commit the greatest sin in American politics -- complain and do nothing. You can go on and on about everyone being a part of the problem but one thing is for sure, you are definately not part of the solution.

 

Post after post, nothing but ramblings of a coward; and all we can expect is you'll continue to B word and offer nothing constructive. Fact is, you're afraid because by offering a solution or even a candidate to back that puts you on a level playing field and your whole M.O. is out the window.

[RCow]

The moral of the message here, to me at least, is that if something is said by the people who were actually there that doesn't reflect kindly and heroically on John Kerry, they are considered bought and paid for liars.

 

That, to me, is kind of-well, real sad. Instead of thinking, "well, if this is true, that's pretty bad" or even "if it's true, it doesn't matter" some of you will immediately leap to the "they are lying because Kerry has three purple hearts and Bush was AWOL from the guard".

 

It doesn't matter now anyway. We're a week or so out. Everyone knows what they are going to do. We'll all have to live with our choices.

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Ah, another straw man. I wasn't attacking the POWs just the whole concept.

[_BiB_]

Gee, nothing like a straw man to fight, eh BiB?  That was pretty easy considering it was nothing, zero, nada to do with what I said.  You can go ahead and pretend in your head that I meant or said or implied anything you wrote but it's either a lie or a hallucination. 

 

If you really think Kerry didn't care about the POWs then there is nothing to discuss.

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Yeah, that's a credibile "documentary." Imagine that, finding a handful of POWs who would do anything to help GWB.

 

Then what do you mean to imply by this statement?

 

Remember now, you consider M. Moore a credible documentary film maker. Read my other posts in context as well. The assertion is, what these folks have to say should be ignored because it doesn't support John Kerry. These guys, and many more were the ones in the cells. You dismiss them out of hand.

 

Where is there any evidence in Mr. Kerry's testimony that he gave one hoot about the POW's? His concerns came much later.

[Alaska Darin]

You see AD, you are coward.  Plain and simple.  You play the coward's game of criticizing everyone and everything (yes, both sides) yet in 10,000 posts have done nothing, absolutely nothing to explain or offer an alternative.  You whine about how the country is going into the crapper yet you commit the greatest sin in American politics -- complain and do nothing.  You can go on and on about everyone being a part of the problem but one thing is for sure, you are definately not part of the solution.

 

Post after post, nothing but ramblings of a coward; and all we can expect is you'll continue to B word and offer nothing constructive.  Fact is, you're afraid because by offering a solution or even a candidate to back that puts you on a level playing field and your whole M.O. is out the window.

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You're absolutely right. My entire contribution to the political climate in this country is limited to discourse here at PPP.

[RCow]

Then what do you mean to imply by this statement?

 

Remember now, you consider M. Moore a credible documentary film maker. Read my other posts in context as well. The assertion is, what these folks have to say should be ignored because it doesn't support John Kerry. These guys, and many more were the ones in the cells. You dismiss them out of hand.

 

Where is there any evidence in Mr. Kerry's testimony that he gave one hoot about the POW's? His concerns came much later.

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Do you have no shame? The third straw man this thread. Where did I EVER say Moore was a credible documentary film maker? Please, show me an instance where I said anything remotely like that. I haven't even SEEN F-9/11.

 

Oh, please. You WANT to believe Kerry didn't care -- if he indeed cared and was a war hero that just wouldn't work for you.

[RCow]

You're absolutely right.  My entire contribution to the political climate in this country is limited to discourse here at PPP.   

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Hope not, because it's sure ain't much here.

[KRC]

Hope not, because it's sure ain't much here.

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You get out of it, what you put into it.

[Alaska Darin]

Hope not, because it's sure ain't much here.

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Is that fact or your OPINION, which so many here (including me) hold in such high regard?

 

You can PRETEND that YOUR contribution to the process is positive because YOUR candidate has a chance to win, but reality is that we will continue down the path towards imperialistic socialism BECAUSE people like you refuse to hold your own party accountable and have for longer than I have been alive.

[RCow]

Is that fact or your OPINION, which so many here (including me) hold in such high regard?

 

You can PRETEND that YOUR contribution to the process is positive because YOUR candidate has a chance to win, but reality is that we will continue down the path towards imperialistic socialism BECAUSE people like you refuse to hold your own party accountable and have for longer than I have been alive.

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OK, give us an alternative. Just this once stop the insults and offer one. Stop telling me how dumb we all are and give us another choice. Who should we vote for? What should we do to make things better?

 

We're all ears (or in this case, eyes). Come on, this is your chance. No joke, I promise I will change my signature for the whole week whatever you seriously suggest. "Vote for _______ " or whatever. There has to be someone or something that you can back.

[Alaska Darin]

OK, give us an alternative.  Just this once stop the insults and offer one.  Stop telling me how dumb we all are and give us another choice.  Who should we vote for?  What should we do to make things better? 

 

We're all ears (or in this case, eyes).  Come on, this is your chance.  No joke, I promise I will change my signature for the whole week whatever you seriously suggest.  "Vote for _______ " or whatever.  There has to be someone or something that you can back.

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Why do you care so much about the candidate I choose? There are a litany of other candidates out there and KRC has posted the website they are listed at. Surely your lack of respect for me and my afformentioned cowardice would preclude you from paying any mind to my recommendation anyway.

 

Did you miss the 100 or so instances of me NOT CARING about your opinion? Why would it matter at all that you are willing to change your signature? You don't blow me, you ain't watching my six, and you ain't signing my paycheck, hence you just don't matter all that much.

 

I've backed plenty of things and given my position on numerous topics on this board over the years. You can continue to say otherwise but that just makes you a liar. No surprise there, given the political ideology you identify with.

[_BiB_]

Do you have no shame?  The third straw man this thread.  Where did I EVER say Moore was a credible documentary film maker?  Please, show me an instance where I said anything remotely like that.  I haven't even SEEN F-9/11. 

 

Oh, please.  You WANT to believe Kerry didn't care -- if he indeed cared and was a war hero that just wouldn't work for you.

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Do you, or do you not consider it an issue that statements made by John Kerry were used as leverage by NVA interrogators to force Americans to sign war crimes confessions?

[VabeachBledsoefan]

I'm sorry your service was that way.  It has much to do with actual leadership, instead of lip service to same. 

 

I can't compare my service to John Kerry's because I didn't serve with him.  I know there aren't ANY circumstances that would've made me come back and discredit every other soldier, sailor, airmen, and marine with propaganda and lies.

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Well unless we all have Vietnam experience, its difficult to undestand what they went through..My military time was generally peaceful, but who is to take away Kerry's first amendment of expressing his feelings and what he saw over there. Do we hold other Vietnam vets accountable for what happen then. It can be said that George Bush was a spoiled coward to not go fight in Vietnam...never here many comments like that.

[Alaska Darin]

Well unless we all have Vietnam experience, its difficult to undestand what they went through..My military time was generally peaceful, but who is to take away Kerry's first amendment of expressing his feelings and what he saw over there.  Do we hold other Vietnam vets accountable for what happen then.  It can be said that George Bush was a spoiled coward to not go fight in Vietnam...never here many comments like that.

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I'm not advocating removing Mr. Kerry's free speech rights. That's not a valid argument here.

 

I'm not sure the relevance of bring up George Bush's service in the thread. If you say it hasn't been commented on here, you ain't been around long. It's been bantered since before the 2000 election, ad nauseum.

 

What Mr. Kerry did was wrong and treasonous. His meeting with the enemy in France and subsequent inclusion in the Vietnam HOF tells me alot about the man.

 

I'll take the word of POWs over a politician any day.

[RCow]

I am quite certain his statements were used. But wouldn't you agree that the North Vietnamese torturers may have exaggerated and take nearly every word extremely out of context. Do you really think they would not have signed them regardless? ("I know you've tortured me for months and years but, gee, if Kerry said that I MUST be a war criminal").

 

Do you really think his statements taken in context made the POWs captivity any worse and don't you think that it's just possible the stand that Kerry and tens of thousands of Vets took against the war ended it sooner that led to their release? Isn't it possible thousands of additional lives were not wasted in a hopeless war?

 

When the President sees another American on TV held hostage by terrorists his heart must bleed for their fate but we cannot give in to their demands. It's not that he doesn't care about them and their families he must do the right thing. However, in Kerry's case to do nothing and stay silent would do nothing to improve the POWs chances of survival. The POWs were being tortured long before Kerry and other spoke up.

 

Which takes more courage: to know your comments could lead to more harm of POWs or stay silent while POWs rot in imprisonment anyway and tens of thousands of more US troops are killed and wounded year after year with no end and no clear path to victory in sight?

[Alaska Darin]

I am quite certain his statements were used.  But wouldn't you agree that the North Vietnamese torturers may have exaggerated and take nearly every word extremely out of context.  Do you really think they would not have signed them regardless?  ("I know you've tortured me for months and years but, gee, if Kerry said that I MUST be a war criminal").

 

Do you really think his statements taken in context made the POWs captivity any worse and don't you think that it's just possible the stand that Kerry and tens of thousands of Vets took against the war ended it sooner that led to their release?  Isn't it possible thousands of additional lives were not wasted in a hopeless war? 

 

When the President sees another American on TV held hostage by terrorists his heart must bleed for their fate but we cannot give in to their demands.  It's not that he doesn't care about them and their families he must do the right thing.  However, in Kerry's case to do nothing and stay silent would do nothing to improve the POWs chances of survival.  The POWs were being tortured long before Kerry and other spoke up.

 

Which takes more courage: to know your comments could lead to more harm of POWs or stay silent while POWs rot in imprisonment anyway and tens of thousands of more US troops are killed and wounded year after year with no end and no clear path to victory in sight?

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Thankfully since then he has been a champion of veteran's issues, showing that he did in fact care about those he pretty much screwed over when he was advancing his political career. [/sarcasm]