Why does everyone think...

[ExiledInIllinois]

Pass Catching TE should be the highest priority

OL and LBs

 

 

Coulda, woulda, shoulda been Dallas Clark instead of Willis McGaDouchebag!

 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

i'm going to paint the same picture as the DE position:

 

stroud - signed through 2010

williams - signed through 2012

johnson - signed through 2012

mccargo - signed through 2010

 

so who goes if they add another DT? mccargo? are we really ready to just chuck him to the wayside? he's signed at reasonable terms for the next two seasons, so i don't see the urgency

 

i think we could obviously improve the talent on the DL (hell, any team could) but realistically i think the bills have locked up players they are very happy with and i don't see big changes happening here because there isn't the "fodder" to replace as in prior years

 

like DE, i wouldn't have DT as a priority going into the '09 off-season

There isn't "fodder" to replace ANYWHERE on this roster. The reality is that management is going to add a playmaker wherever they can...if that means taking a DE or a DT, so be it. If thats whats available, thats fine. Its not like Ryan Denney and John McCargo are completely untouchable.

 

Simply being under contract is not going to guarantee anyone a roster spot anymore. This team is too good, and too deep for that. We'll add a playmaker wherever we can, and let the incumbents fight to make the team. Competition and depth can only be a good thing.

[JStranger76]

I'm hoping we are picking pretty low in the draft year which IS usually a great spot for TE's, LB's and centers. But should a highly rated DT or DE the Bills love fall to our spot.......why not turn the heat up even hotter!!???!!!???!???

[d_wag]

There isn't "fodder" to replace ANYWHERE on this roster. The reality is that management is going to add a playmaker wherever they can...if that means taking a DE or a DT, so be it. If thats whats available, thats fine. Its not like Ryan Denney and John McCargo are completely untouchable.

 

Simply being under contract is not going to guarantee anyone a roster spot anymore. This team is too good, and too deep for that. We'll add a playmaker wherever we can, and let the incumbents fight to make the team. Competition and depth can only be a good thing.

 

i respectively disagree - letting go of denney or mccargo when they are under contract and adequately filling their role doesn't make a lot of sense to me........while the roster is deep right now, there are impending free agents (i.e. fowler, greer, chambers, preston, losman, wilson) that will require replacements if these guys aren't retained.......... those are the areas you concentrate your resources on (i.e. free agent dollars and draft picks), along with areas in which you have more flexibility cap wise and roster wise (i.e. TE and OLB)

 

i think it's fair to say the bills brass have targeted areas of true need in the early rounds the past 3 years, and i don't expect that to change now

 

in short, burning a valuable resource (high draft pick) to upgrade your #4 DE and/or your #4 DT isn't the most efficient use of resources

[Typical TBD Guy]

i'm going to paint the same picture as the DE position:

 

stroud - signed through 2010

williams - signed through 2012

johnson - signed through 2012

mccargo - signed through 2010

 

so who goes if they add another DT? mccargo? are we really ready to just chuck him to the wayside? he's signed at reasonable terms for the next two seasons, so i don't see the urgency

 

i think we could obviously improve the talent on the DL (hell, any team could) but realistically i think the bills have locked up players they are very happy with and i don't see big changes happening here because there isn't the "fodder" to replace as in prior years

 

like DE, i wouldn't have DT as a priority going into the '09 off-season

 

Um, I've actually been one of the very few vocal supporters around here of giving McCargo more time to develop. How about keeping 5 DT's on the roster? It would require cutting such stellar depth players as Justin Jenkins or Matt Murphy or Bryan Scott, but I think we can manage.

 

Like I said, lose Stroud and we're back down to being unable to stop the run or free up our DE's for a decent pass rush. If another high draft pick presents us with the opportunity of taking a DT who can do more damage than Williams or Johnson, you go for it.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

i respectively disagree - letting go of denney or mccargo when they are under contract and adequately filling their role doesn't make a lot of sense to me........while the roster is deep right now, there are impending free agents (i.e. fowler, greer, chambers, preston, losman, wilson) that will require replacements if these guys aren't retained.......... those are the areas you concentrate your resources on (i.e. free agent dollars and draft picks), along with areas in which you have more flexibility cap wise and roster wise (i.e. TE and OLB)

 

i think it's fair to say the bills brass have targeted areas of true need in the early rounds the past 3 years, and i don't expect that to change now

 

in short, burning a valuable resource (high draft pick) to upgrade your #4 DE and/or your #4 DT isn't the most efficient use of resources

I think you're sort of missing the point here.

 

The idea is that the roster overall is strong enough that there aren't many positions that are screaming for attention anymore. Once center and outside 'backer are addressed, there's really no direction where we just have to go. That means there's two roster spots that we must fill, even though we (along with every other team) will be in a position to acquire far more than two new players over the course of the offseason. So what do we do with that surplus?

 

This is still a team with plenty of cap room, and a full arsenal of draft picks.

 

You say it doesn't make sense to look at Denney and McCargo's spots when they are "adequately filling their roles." And I ask you, why should we settle for adequacy? If there's a player who will be so good we'll have no choice but to dress him and play him on Sundays, unlike McCargo, why wouldn't we go after him?

 

As it is, we get merely "adequate" play from the left end spot. If there's a player in the draft they feel has a real chance to give us outstanding play from that spot, I don't see anything that should stop us from pulling the trigger.

 

When you have a solid base to work from, you can pick the best players out there almost regardless of position. Thats why I expect a bit of a change in philosophy. This offseason we'll be in a position this administration hasn't been in yet: a position of strength. We should use the fact that we don't have many positions we MUST fill to put the best possible team out there. That may mean upgrading spots filled by "adequate" players.

[d_wag]

I think you're sort of missing the point here.

 

The idea is that the roster overall is strong enough that there aren't many positions that are screaming for attention anymore. Once center and outside 'backer are addressed, there's really no direction where we just have to go. That means there's two roster spots that we must fill, even though we (along with every other team) will be in a position to acquire far more than two new players over the course of the offseason. So what do we do with that surplus?

 

This is still a team with plenty of cap room, and a full arsenal of draft picks.

 

You say it doesn't make sense to look at Denney and McCargo's spots when they are "adequately filling their roles." And I ask you, why should we settle for adequacy? If there's a player who will be so good we'll have no choice but to dress him and play him on Sundays, unlike McCargo, why wouldn't we go after him?

 

As it is, we get merely "adequate" play from the left end spot. If there's a player in the draft they feel has a real chance to give us outstanding play from that spot, I don't see anything that should stop us from pulling the trigger.

 

When you have a solid base to work from, you can pick the best players out there almost regardless of position. Thats why I expect a bit of a change in philosophy. This offseason we'll be in a position this administration hasn't been in yet: a position of strength. We should use the fact that we don't have many positions we MUST fill to put the best possible team out there. That may mean upgrading spots filled by "adequate" players.

 

i get the point here - i think we just have different points of view on how the bills management operate......at the end of the day, i think the bills are happy with their current group of DE's and DT's and i don't see anyone getting cut there (barring injury of course)..........i defiantly don't think upgrading this area is a priority for them and i think they'd be perfectly content to return the same exact group next season........i think they will focus on replacing departing free agents and upgrading the TE and possibly the OLB position and will use their resources in those areas........whether that philosophy is the correct way to build a football team can be debated, but i believe that is the way the bills will look at the off-season

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

i get the point here - i think we just have different points of view on how the bills management operate......at the end of the day, i think the bills are happy with their current group of DE's and DT's and i don't see anyone getting cut there (barring injury of course)..........i defiantly don't think upgrading this area is a priority for them and i think they'd be perfectly content to return the same exact group next season........i think they will focus on replacing departing free agents and upgrading the TE and possibly the OLB position and will use their resources in those areas........whether that philosophy is the correct way to build a football team can be debated, but i believe that is the way the bills will look at the off-season

I don't really disagree with alot of what you say here. I just think to myself, "Okay, after we replace Crowell and Fowler...then what?"

[d_wag]

I don't really disagree with alot of what you say here. I just think to myself, "Okay, after we replace Crowell and Fowler...then what?"

 

from another thread, this is how i think the bills will approach the off-season in terms of priorities:

1) TE (i'm also hoping to see this finally addressed in the 1st) - schouman's roster spot

2) OC (fowler will be a UFA and an upgrade is required) - fowler's roster spot

3) OLB (ellison could be upgraded, but at worst an upgrade over costanzo would help) - costanzo's roster spot

4) OT (need to find a #3) - chambers' roster spot

5) OG (need to find an adequate backup who can also cover at OC) - preston's roster spot

6) QB (losman will be gone, so need to find a #3, assuming a vet fills #2 role, although hamden could step up to that spot) - JP's roster spot

7) S (someone to push wilson and scott on ST's would be useful) - wilson/scott's roster spot

8) CB (depth player, mostly ST's) - greer's roster spot

 

ideally, a couple of these needs will be sorted in FA (would be good to find a starting C/top interior backup and a #2 QB in free agency) and/or simply resigning some of these impending free agents will negate the need to fill the position

 

and after all that, the bills will probably turn their attention to contract extensions (peters, stroud, whitner, etc.) before they would even look at the DL........so i think they have plenty to keep them busy.......i just don't think they will even look at the DL considering the contracts there with so many other areas to focus on......i defiantly believe that OL will be the focus of the off-season, although TE is more of a hope

[DIE HARD 1967]

Its a mistake to believe "EVERYBODY" on this board means more then a handful

 

For example, A DE is not on MY list at all

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

from another thread, this is how i think the bills will approach the off-season in terms of priorities:

1) TE (i'm also hoping to see this finally addressed in the 1st) - schouman's roster spot

2) OC (fowler will be a UFA and an upgrade is required) - fowler's roster spot

3) OLB (ellison could be upgraded, but at worst an upgrade over costanzo would help) - costanzo's roster spot

4) OT (need to find a #3) - chambers' roster spot

5) OG (need to find an adequate backup who can also cover at OC) - preston's roster spot

6) QB (losman will be gone, so need to find a #3, assuming a vet fills #2 role, although hamden could step up to that spot) - JP's roster spot

7) S (someone to push wilson and scott on ST's would be useful) - wilson/scott's roster spot

8) CB (depth player, mostly ST's) - greer's roster spot

 

ideally, a couple of these needs will be sorted in FA (would be good to find a starting C/top interior backup and a #2 QB in free agency) and/or simply resigning some of these impending free agents will negate the need to fill the position

 

and after all that, the bills will probably turn their attention to contract extensions (peters, stroud, whitner, etc.) before they would even look at the DL........so i think they have plenty to keep them busy.......i just don't think they will even look at the DL considering the contracts there with so many other areas to focus on......i defiantly believe that OL will be the focus of the off-season, although TE is more of a hope

See this is what I don't understand. You say tight end should be our number one priority, but we can't even think about defensive line.

 

How is tight end a dire need, while defensive line can't even be considered? I'd label our play at TE, LDE, and every DT other than Stroud the same way: solid. Adequate. Passable.

 

Royal really is a solid all-around player. We know he's a decent outlet/checkdown, he's an exceptional blocker in both the running and passing games, and - judging by the home game against Miami last year, this year's preseason, and week 1 - he's even become capable of stretching the field vertically.

 

Robert Royal is every bit the adequate starter Chris Kelsay and Kyle Williams are.

 

I still only see two spots (LB and C) that need to be addressed with quality players. After that, we have free reign to pick up whatever playmakers are available to us, almost regardless of position. Defensive line seems like as good a spot as any to look at.

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

See this is what I don't understand. You say tight end should be our number one priority, but we can't even think about defensive line.

 

How is tight end a dire need, while defensive line can't even be considered? I'd label our play at TE, LDE, and every DT other than Stroud the same way: solid. Adequate. Passable.

 

Royal really is a solid all-around player. We know he's a decent outlet/checkdown, he's an exceptional blocker in both the running and passing games, and - judging by the home game against Miami last year, this year's preseason, and week 1 - he's even become capable of stretching the field vertically.

 

Robert Royal is every bit the adequate starter Chris Kelsay and Kyle Williams are.

 

I still only see two spots (LB and C) that need to be addressed with quality players. After that, we have free reign to pick up whatever playmakers are available to us, almost regardless of position. Defensive line seems like as good a spot as any to look at.

 

I see what you're saying, but I think DE and DT can be addressed in the 2010 draft. Yes, the talent level seems to take a nose dive after Stroud, but here's the thing. WE HAVE STROUD. We don't have someone to create mismatches at the TE spot. We need a C and an OLB to replace Crowell. THat's the first 3 rounds IMHO.

 

I think, barring injury, you look at DE and DT in the first 2 rounds of 2010.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I see what you're saying, but I think DE and DT can be addressed in the 2010 draft. Yes, the talent level seems to take a nose dive after Stroud, but here's the thing. WE HAVE STROUD. We don't have someone to create mismatches at the TE spot. We need a C and an OLB to replace Crowell. THat's the first 3 rounds IMHO.

Saying we're okay with adequate play from one DT spot because Stroud is at the other spot, is the same as saying we're okay with adequate TE play because we already have Lee Evans.

 

Still don't understand why TE is more of a need than defensive line.

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

Saying we're okay with adequate play from one DT spot because Stroud is at the other spot, is the same as saying we're okay with adequate TE play because we already have Lee Evans.

 

Still don't understand why TE is more of a need than defensive line.

 

First, this is all opinion.

 

Second, no difference maker/game breaker in the TE spot. We already have one on the DL. We need one at the TE spot.

 

And I think your Lee Evans analogy is way off too.

[d_wag]

See this is what I don't understand. You say tight end should be our number one priority, but we can't even think about defensive line.

 

How is tight end a dire need, while defensive line can't even be considered? I'd label our play at TE, LDE, and every DT other than Stroud the same way: solid. Adequate. Passable.

 

Royal really is a solid all-around player. We know he's a decent outlet/checkdown, he's an exceptional blocker in both the running and passing games, and - judging by the home game against Miami last year, this year's preseason, and week 1 - he's even become capable of stretching the field vertically.

 

Robert Royal is every bit the adequate starter Chris Kelsay and Kyle Williams are.

 

I still only see two spots (LB and C) that need to be addressed with quality players. After that, we have free reign to pick up whatever playmakers are available to us, almost regardless of position. Defensive line seems like as good a spot as any to look at.

 

well as i've mentioned numerous times, i think the contract situations and locker room presence are the two biggest reasons.........i'm not going to repeat myself in detail, but i'll again say that i think they are comfortable with the current DL and i don't expect them to cut anyone there (as they would have to if they wanted to add another player at the position)..........so for that reason, it's not an area of focus for them and dictates they turn to other areas to use their resources

 

TE is a position where they have more roster flexibility..........in my opinion, royal is going to be on the team next season regardless of what else they bring in, and may even be the starter on opening day.........he is a decent player and brings a lot to the locker room.......so it's not about comparing royal to kelsay or williams - it's about comparing schouman and fine to spencer johnson, john mccargo, chris ellis, and ryan denney.........no doubt in my mind that i like the DL backups a hell of a lot more then the TE backups.......and given that schouman/fine are on cheap contracts, don't bring a ton to the locker room at the stage, and were low draft picks they are expendable........considering royal's age, his knee concerns, and the backups, i think it's a no-brainer that the bills look to address this area with a frontline player who can push him in '09 and eventually establish himself as the #1 guy (making royal an excellent #2)

 

roster decisions for the bills work a bit different then "madden"......i believe they take the locker room aspect into consideration much more then other teams, and lock up the players they want around accordingly, not based just on what they bring to the field but also on what they bring off it.........that is why guys like kelsay, williams, denney, and royal are around for the long-term, and i just don't expect that to change.........to bring in highly regarded players on the DL would force the bills to make a tough cut there to a vet they like, and i just don't see it happening......on the other side of the coin, a cut of schouman or fine is a lot easier to swallow and understandable to the rest of the squad

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

We can cut Copeland Bryan to make room for a new d-lineman. That really isn't an issue. I don't think his locker room presence is any greater than Schouman or Fine.

[d_wag]

We can cut Copeland Bryan to make room for a new d-lineman. That really isn't an issue. I don't think his his locker room presence is any greater than Schouman or Fine.

 

sure, he's expendable - but i don't think upgrading the #5 DE position (which he would be next season, if ellis progresses as expected) is as much a priority as upgrading the #1 TE position.........and if this new player passes guys on the depth chart it means sitting down one of denney, ellis, or kelsey (perhaps 2 if they only dress 3 DE's for a game) - that doesn't strike me as ideal and what the bills want to accomplish, given denney's special team work, kelsey's leadership as a captain, and ellis' strong upside which the bills obviously thought a lot of to pick him where they did

[BuffOrange]

There isn't "fodder" to replace ANYWHERE on this roster. The reality is that management is going to add a playmaker wherever they can...if that means taking a DE or a DT, so be it. If thats whats available, thats fine. Its not like Ryan Denney and John McCargo are completely untouchable.

 

This.

 

Who knows if we had taken the Florida DE this year if Jax didn't trade up for him. My guess is probably yes. Since he was gone, the worst thing we could've done was reach for another one, or Malcolm Kelly as many suggested.

Denney & Kelsay are not good starters - it's strange how this is universally agreed upon after every loss, but now "zomg 5 sacks!"? It is one game - you don't draft based on opening day stats from the previous year.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

sure, he's expendable - but i don't think upgrading the #5 DE position (which he would be next season, if ellis progresses as expected) is as much a priority as upgrading the #1 TE position.........and if this new player passes guys on the depth chart it means sitting down one of denney, ellis, or kelsey (perhaps 2 if they only dress 3 DE's for a game) - that doesn't strike me as ideal and what the bills want to accomplish, given denney's special team work, kelsey's leadership as a captain, and ellis' strong upside which the bills obviously thought a lot of to pick him where they did

Again, the idea isn't to "upgrade the #5 DE position." Thats like saying that we don't need to draft a tight end because we "don't need to upgrade the #3 TE position." If you want to use what an incoming draftee would be on DAY ONE at DE, you have to do the same with TE.

 

The idea no matter what position you draft in the first two rounds is that, within a few years, they'll represent an upgrade to the previous STARTER at that position. This is no more likely at tight end than it is at LDE, or 'DT2,' for lack of a better term.

 

Kelsay and Denney can continue to offer locker room leadership and special teams play while filling only rotational roles on the defensive line. Thats already their role anyway.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

This.

 

Who knows if we had taken the Florida DE this year if Jax didn't trade up for him. My guess is probably yes. Since he was gone, the worst thing we could've done was reach for another one, or Malcolm Kelly as many suggested.

Denney & Kelsay are not good starters - it's strange how this is universally agreed upon after every loss, but now "zomg 5 sacks!"? It is one game - you don't draft based on opening day stats from the previous year.

 

 

I believe we would've as well. I also think there was a strong chance had olb Keith Rivers been there he could've been the pick. I think it was Mort during the draft who said something to effect of Jauron loving what Keith Rivers can do, and had he been around he would've been the pick. With that said the bills clearly felt that an athletic pass rusher was a must grabbing Ellis in the 3rd rd. I'm sure the front office/coaching staff will view it objectively, and realize the collective age, and presence each of the dends bring to the field. Should Kelsay have another underwhelming year he could get the hook. Kelsay may be a vocal leader, but at the end of the day, it's production over noise.

 

You have to look at it from the sense of. Do we start planning for the future of the position now, or down the line. Many would agree Schobel is not gonna get better as he continues to climb into his 30's, or that Kelsay/Denney are putting fear into opposing quarterbacks. I take issue with the the stance of Dwag

 

"We don't need to upgrade 5th de"

 

On paper it may seem like a 5th de. You get a premiere talent at end in this draft, and it's not upgrading 5th de, it's upgrading one of the most important aspects of football. A guy who down the line can be an impactful pass rusher, and make the transition from Schobel that much smoother. Just look at what the Bills want to do defensively. Attacking by flying to the ball. Speed Kills, and what better position to get speed from. Then a position that can impact the entire pass defense other then end. Leading to turnovers, hurried throws, and better production on 3rd down defense. We also need interior dt help. Stroud is great, but like Schobel you don't sacrifice the group, for the sum of the parts. You look to improve with competition.

 

Yes we need a center. Yes we need a olb. You hardly ever should take either of those positions over a defensive end. The Bills could afford to grab a pass catching te as well. They could've afforded to do that for the last 15 years. They seem to love what Royal brings to the team, and may be high on Schouman, and Fine. While there's some quality at the position in the draft, a te does not have the impact on the game the way a dend does. Yeah we can get by with Schobel/Kelsay/Denney. We won't see this defense take that next step until a pass rusher is present.