Like A Mofo Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 First off, to the Red Sox fans here that actually have some class, I sent my congrats, its been a longtime coming for some Red Sox fans that’s for sure. Last night around 12:30am, I had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that I have only felt as a sports fan on very few occasions, such as after one of the four Bills Super Bowl losses, and the 1999 SC Finals. Even though the Yankees have had immense success, this was painful because as a Yankees fan since 1982, Ive never experienced that feeling. Even after Game 4, I was getting uneasy about this series, thinking they better close this out in 5 because Moose is on the mound, and Leiber for Game 6 and a very unreliable Brown for Game 7, Yankees left themselves open for this to happen. I give the Sox credit, they keep coming after you over and over, they work the counts very well, and they foul a lot of pitches off which juices up the opposing pitchers pitch counts. Also I believe if you had to pick a 'sleeper MVP' for this series, it is Dave Roberts. He disrupted the Yankees pitchers, especially Gordon, and Im not even sure the Sox get back to NY without a guy like that on the bench. Yankees have no one to blame but themselves. Torre IMO was outmanaged, and sometimes I believe he walks on water and he shouldn’t, and as crazy as it sounds, I wouldn’t mind seeing a managerial change. Something tells me that will happen because George is gonna look for someone to take the fall, and the Yankees have a few immovable contracts, most logical choice is to remove Torre. I think George has been itching to do it since last year. As a result of this collapse by the Yankees, here are 2 things that IMO that I hear over and over here that should just stop: 1. Complaining over and over about the Yankees payroll- Listen of course money helps I will never deny that, but the last four years have CLEARLY shown money doesn’t buy everything (Marlins, Angels, D-Backs). You still have to play the games, and the Yankees have bigger stars now but arent nealry the team they once were. The Yankees recent failures in the playoffs IMO makes me appreciate the 96, 98,99, and 2000 Yanks that much more. 2. "How can a Bills fan be a Yankees fan??"- Im sorry but I just do not understand this comment at all, what does that mean??? I would never question a Bills fan being a Red Sox fan etc, that I don’t understand at all What happened yesterday will bother me forever, so all Yankees fans have officially suffered at one time or another. As for the World Series, I could give a stevestojan about it. And if Red Sox fans didn’t watch it last year, I understand that too. And there are no curses, to me that is all a bunch of stevestojan too. Ive said my peace on baseball. Now, back to the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CircleTheWagons Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Not to kick you when you're down, but I don't get how you don't get the money issue It's not that the Yankees can buy the Series but they simply pay for the right to be in the playoffs every year. After that anything can happen. Fans almost everywhere else in the majors understand that when their team's best player's contract is up, he's moving on, probably to the Yankees. Yankee fans always talk about their "home-grown" talent and I admit they have a lot. They are also one of the select few that get to keep their own players that turn out and get rid of the mistakes. Other teams have to live with their mistakes, George pays to eliminate them. I'm not anti-Yankees - I would do exactly what they are doing if I could, but over the last decade I've become far less interested in baseball because they allow the Yanks to continue to dominate year after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like A Mofo Posted October 21, 2004 Author Share Posted October 21, 2004 Not to kick you when you're down, but I don't get how you don't get the money issue It's not that the Yankees can buy the Series but they simply pay for the right to be in the playoffs every year. After that anything can happen. Fans almost everywhere else in the majors understand that when their team's best player's contract is up, he's moving on, probably to the Yankees. Yankee fans always talk about their "home-grown" talent and I admit they have a lot. They are also one of the select few that get to keep their own players that turn out and get rid of the mistakes. Other teams have to live with their mistakes, George pays to eliminate them. I'm not anti-Yankees - I would do exactly what they are doing if I could, but over the last decade I've become far less interested in baseball because they allow the Yanks to continue to dominate year after year. 79763[/snapback] Good post, and whats funny about their home grown talent is that there isnt much left now, and yet they have been throwing more $ around, and yet this team isnt nearly as good as the ones in the late 90's....which is kind of what I was trying to explain. Throwing money at FA all the time will eventually catch up to you in the end. if the Yankees dont start building from within, itll be the 80's all over again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Like CircleTheWagons said, of course anything can happen on any given day, but the ONLY people that don't have a problem with the Yankees payroll are Yankees fans. Sure, other teams have huge payrolls too, but historically, and in all the years of The Steinbrenner, they spend more money. My question is, if Mr Steinbrenner had decided to buy the Montreal Expos instead of the NY Yankees, would you think the idea of "spend as much as the owner has" would be fair? Of COURSE bigger cities are going to do better. PLEASE don't give me the few exceptions that are out there. Anyone using exceptions (ie the Marlins) is really reaching. You KNOW your team spends more, which in Professional Sports means you get better talent. Sometimes they don't gel together, and you lose in the first round of the playoffs. My question is, how many teams have less playoff series wins than the Yankees have World series wins? I bet (and I dont know) that its alot. Plain and simple. Pro Athletes make more money the better they are. If teams are allowed to spend as much as they want, the team with the biggest checking account will get the best talent. And rare exceptions aside, they will win more. I have asked this questions at least a dozen times to Yankees fans I have met, and can't get a good answer: What would be wrong with an $80 million salary cap? Don't you enjoy the parity of football? Isn't it cool to see SanFran isn't unbeatable like they used to be, only to know that in a couple years, if they use good strategy, they CAN (not will) be at the top again? Imagine if football had the same pay structure as baseball! The Giants and/or Jets would make the playoffs EVERY YEAR. That would suck, and it sucks in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux of Borg Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 The two teams with highest payroll met in the ALCS. Big surprise... i'm all for a salery cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 1. Complaining over and over about the Yankees payroll- Listen of course money helps I will never deny that, but the last four years have CLEARLY shown money doesn’t buy everything (Marlins, Angels, D-Backs). You still have to play the games, and the Yankees have bigger stars now but arent nealry the team they once were. The Yankees recent failures in the playoffs IMO makes me appreciate the 96, 98,99, and 2000 Yanks that much more. I disagree. It makes the money issue even worse when the Yankees take this "our season was a failure because we lost in Game 7 of the ALCS, so let's go sign Carlos Beltran" attitude, when 90% of the teams out there would be thrilled to ever make it that far in the first place. The fact that teams like the Diamondbacks and Marlins had ONE season where it all came together proves how hard it is to win a championship or even compete for one, thus highlighting how unfair it is to have the Yankees get an automatic playoff berth every year because of their checkbook. IMO, it hurts the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Like CircleTheWagons said, of course anything can happen on any given day, but the ONLY people that don't have a problem with the Yankees payroll are Yankees fans. Sure, other teams have huge payrolls too, but historically, and in all the years of The Steinbrenner, they spend more money. My question is, if Mr Steinbrenner had decided to buy the Montreal Expos instead of the NY Yankees, would you think the idea of "spend as much as the owner has" would be fair? Of COURSE bigger cities are going to do better. PLEASE don't give me the few exceptions that are out there. Anyone using exceptions (ie the Marlins) is really reaching. You KNOW your team spends more, which in Professional Sports means you get better talent. Sometimes they don't gel together, and you lose in the first round of the playoffs. My question is, how many teams have less playoff series wins than the Yankees have World series wins? I bet (and I dont know) that its alot. Plain and simple. Pro Athletes make more money the better they are. If teams are allowed to spend as much as they want, the team with the biggest checking account will get the best talent. And rare exceptions aside, they will win more. I have asked this questions at least a dozen times to Yankees fans I have met, and can't get a good answer: What would be wrong with an $80 million salary cap? Don't you enjoy the parity of football? Isn't it cool to see SanFran isn't unbeatable like they used to be, only to know that in a couple years, if they use good strategy, they CAN (not will) be at the top again? Imagine if football had the same pay structure as baseball! The Giants and/or Jets would make the playoffs EVERY YEAR. That would suck, and it sucks in baseball. I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Good posts Clements. The Sox deserve this and it has been a long time coming so congrats to those fans. The idea of Sox fans complaining about the Yanks spending a lot of money though is somewhat preposterous. Guess who spends the second most? The Red Sox do! They spend about 120-130M on payroll and have Manny making 20M/year. Minnesota, Detroit, Milwaukee can all complain because they will never have the revenue to sign big name players, but the BoSox are being a bit disingenuous by complaining. Here in Boston we have the highest tickets in the nation for baseball so don't feel sorry for the BoSox not being able to spend money because they do, and a lot of it. And like Clements says, it does not ensure a thing as proven for the past 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Good posts Clements. The Sox deserve this and it has been a long time coming so congrats to those fans. The idea of Sox fans complaining about the Yanks spending a lot of money though is somewhat preposterous. Guess who spends the second most? The Red Sox do! They spend about 120-130M on payroll and have Manny making 20M/year. Minnesota, Detroit, Milwaukee can all complain because they will never have the revenue to sign big name players, but the BoSox are being a bit disingenuous by complaining. Here in Boston we have the highest tickets in the nation for baseball so don't feel sorry for the BoSox not being able to spend money because they do, and a lot of it. And like Clements says, it does not ensure a thing as proven for the past 4 years. 79811[/snapback] hankees spent $194M last year.... That's A LOT higher than the RedSox! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwovince Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Nice post Clements and thank you for your class. I agree with everything you said except the money part. Yes Red Sox spend money also i understand that but they only do it to compete with the Spankees. I do think there should be a salary cap and thats coming from a fan of the red sox who spent to get to world series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 1 New York Yankees $184,193,950 2 Boston Red Sox $127,298,500 3 Anaheim Angels $100,534,667 4 New York Mets $96,660,970 5 Philadelphia Phillies $93,219,167 6 Los Angeles Dodgers $92,902,001 7 Chicago Cubs $90,560,000 8 Atlanta Braves $90,182,500 9 St. Louis Cardinals $83,228,333 10 San Francisco Giants $82,019,166 21 Toronto Blue Jays $50,017,000 22 Kansas City Royals $47,609,000 23 Detroit Tigers $46,832,000 24 Cincinnati Reds $46,615,250 25 Florida Marlins $42,143,042 26 Montreal Expos $41,197,500 27 Cleveland Indians $34,319,300 28 Pittsburgh Pirates $32,227,929 29 Tampa Bay Devil Rays $29,556,667 30 Milwaukee Brewers $27,528,500 Top 10 Payroll Teams Wins: 101, 98, 92, 71, 86, 93, 89, 96, 105, 91 AVERAGE WINS FOR THE TOP TEN PAYROLL TEAMS: 92.2 Bottom 5 Payroll Teams Wins: 67, 58, 72, 76, 83, 67, 80, 72, 70, 67 AVERAGE WINS FOR THE BOTTOM TEN PAYROLL TEAMS: 71.2 Difference? 21 GAMES ON AVERAGE!!! Now tell me money doesn't buy you wins.. PLEASE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Henry Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 The two teams with highest payroll met in the ALCS. Big surprise... i'm all for a salery cap. 79802[/snapback] A salary cap wouldn’t be fair and would cause the league as a whole to lose money if it were implemented in baseball. Too much of the revenue is earned by individual ballclubs directly from the fans to make this reasonable. Pretend you’re me for a second DTS. I paid $70 x 2 x 14 for my Sox tickets this year. $2000. Some guy in Kansas City sitting in equivalent seats as I am probably pays closer to $12 per ticket. So why shouldn’t I get a better team when I’m bankrolling them at 6x a higher rate than the guy in KC? Lord knows I and many others in the bigger markets would think twice about taking such a bath on seats if there were a salary cap. MLB knows this. I totally agree the NFL is better suited for having a competitive league in the long term, but these fundamental economic differences (most NFL revenue derived from TV/merch for 8 games vs. most MLB revenue derived at the ballpark gate over 81 games) aren’t ever changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 A salary cap wouldn’t be fair and would cause the league as a whole to lose money if it were implemented in baseball. Too much of the revenue is earned by individual ballclubs directly from the fans to make this reasonable. Pretend you’re me for a second DTS. I paid $70 x 2 x 14 for my Sox tickets this year. $2000. Some guy in Kansas City sitting in equivalent seats as I am probably pays closer to $12 per ticket. So why shouldn’t I get a better team when I’m bankrolling them at 6x a higher rate than the guy in KC? Lord knows I and many others in the bigger markets would think twice about taking such a bath on seats if there were a salary cap. MLB knows this. I totally agree the NFL is better suited for having a competitive league in the long term, but these fundamental economic differences (most NFL revenue derived from TV/merch for 8 games vs. most MLB revenue derived at the ballpark gate over 81 games) aren’t ever changing. 79844[/snapback] But you're argument is the old chicken-and-the-egg. The reason the guy in KC is only paying $12 for a ticket is because he isnt seeing an all star team like you are. But for the owner of the Royals to get that much talent, he would need to raise ticket prices. If he did that, no one would come, and he couldnt pay a top name player. And the cycle continues. The way for ANY other team to get good is to have a Billionaire like Steinbrenner buy them. Then, throw hundreds of millions at the best talent, and then you can raise ticket prices. And then you can pay the players even more. And then other players WANT to come there because you win. Then, you get MORE money, and MORE expensive tickets. See, that's linear. Your argument is circular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Henry Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 But you're argument is the old chicken-and-the-egg. The reason the guy in KC is only paying $12 for a ticket is because he isnt seeing an all star team like you are. But for the owner of the Royals to get that much talent, he would need to raise ticket prices. If he did that, no one would come, and he couldnt pay a top name player. And the cycle continues. The way for ANY other team to get good is to have a Billionaire like Steinbrenner buy them. Then, throw hundreds of millions at the best talent, and then you can raise ticket prices. And then you can pay the players even more. And then other players WANT to come there because you win. Then, you get MORE money, and MORE expensive tickets. See, that's linear. Your argument is circular. 79850[/snapback] Your scenario is a tad unrealistic. Mark Cubans don’t grow on trees, and if they did, they might doubt the fiscal sanity of making a profit with the Milwaukee Brewers under the current conditions and look to a different investment opportunity. I don’t think that I am even making a circular or linear argument for the system – just stating what is realistic and how I would behave as a consumer. If you’re MLB , you’re not going to risk alienating your premium customers in Boston, New York and San Francisco for potential customers in Kansas City, Tampa Bay and Cincinnati because the potential downside in terms of lost revenue exceeds the potential upside. That’s why there is no salary cap. I can’t imagine anyone would argue that this system is good from a sports purity perspective. This is why they latch onto any national story (HR Derby, Sox/Yankees) and promote the everloving stevestojan out of it. They know they risk losing the next generation of fans in a lot of places because their teams will only be tepidly competitive throughout their formative years. (I love the fact that I can argue with you and use your name as a noun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CircleTheWagons Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 I have asked this questions at least a dozen times to Yankees fans I have met, and can't get a good answer: What would be wrong with an $80 million salary cap? 79791[/snapback] That's kind of funny because I ask other fans the opposite question (making the same point) -Why do you watch baseball when the Yankees have 4 times your payroll? I refuse to blame a team for working within the existing system to try and win. Good for the Yanks, fugg the Broncos for messing with the cap in the NFL. I was a huge baseball fan in the 70s and early 80s. Then I started to watch my team lose all its best players every year and I started losing interest. This year, I lost my baseball team and I don't even care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2004 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Bottom line is this. The Yankees couldn't have had a better chance than game 5. Joe Torre after the marathon game came on the podium and said that his team's attitude and focus wasn't affected by the losses they suffered in Boston. I still don't believe that. The following 2 games (6 and 7), they never had the lead once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 (edited) an article defending georgie boy As well as the Orioles, the Dodgers, the Red Sox and a few other teams, not to mention the fact that George Steinbrenner is paying the other owners a hell of alot of money so they can also field a team. What do those owners do? Sure as stevestojan don't re-invest it, they buy themselves pretty things. Does NY have an advantage because of thier location, probably, but steinbrenner has the money, likes to spend it on HIS team so that the fans of NY can enjoy a quality product. Could be an idea some other owners should try once in a while. Hell I would love it if Ralphie boy put an all-star team out there for us to enjoy, but the nfl has a salary cap, until mlb institutes a salary cap, then i am all for steinbrenner throwing money after players that his "experts" consider worthy of the salaries. Not to kick you when you're down, but I don't get how you don't get the money issue It's not that the Yankees can buy the Series but they simply pay for the right to be in the playoffs every year. After that anything can happen. Fans almost everywhere else in the majors understand that when their team's best player's contract is up, he's moving on, probably to the Yankees. Yankee fans always talk about their "home-grown" talent and I admit they have a lot. They are also one of the select few that get to keep their own players that turn out and get rid of the mistakes. Other teams have to live with their mistakes, George pays to eliminate them. I'm not anti-Yankees - I would do exactly what they are doing if I could, but over the last decade I've become far less interested in baseball because they allow the Yanks to continue to dominate year after year. 79763[/snapback] Edited October 21, 2004 by POOJER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 That's kind of funny because I ask other fans the opposite question (making the same point) -Why do you watch baseball when the Yankees have 4 times your payroll? I refuse to blame a team for working within the existing system to try and win. Good for the Yanks, fugg the Broncos for messing with the cap in the NFL. I was a huge baseball fan in the 70s and early 80s. Then I started to watch my team lose all its best players every year and I started losing interest. This year, I lost my baseball team and I don't even care 79906[/snapback] Good post, Circle - that's why I don't watch that much MLB any more. It's gotta drive you nuts to watch old 'Spos like Pedro, Vlad, and Larry Walker in the playoffs with other teams and think about what could have been. Now, no baseball, and no Habs for the foreseeable future. Ugh. Long, cold winter in Quebec..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 an article defending georgie boy As well as the Orioles, the Dodgers, the Red Sox and a few other teams, not to mention the fact that George Steinbrenner is paying the other owners a hell of alot of money so they can also field a team. What do those owners do? Sure as stevestojan don't re-invest it, they buy themselves pretty things. Does NY have an advantage because of thier location, probably, but steinbrenner has the money, likes to spend it on HIS team so that the fans of NY can enjoy a quality product. Could be an idea some other owners should try once in a while. Hell I would love it if Ralphie boy put an all-star team out there for us to enjoy, but the nfl has a salary cap, until mlb institutes a salary cap, then i am all for steinbrenner throwing money after players that his "experts" consider worthy of the salaries. 79932[/snapback] KD & poojer nice posts........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 it may not be a popular post, but frankly i am sick of parity, i want my favorite teams to dominate the others, i want the owner of my favorite team to bring in the "best" players available, I am not stupid enough to ignore the fact that the game is decided on the field not at the bank. But to be honest I love having A-rod on my team and I would love to have schilling and pedro in pinstripes next year. hell if i can welcome wade boggs and roger clemons, i can accept anyone if they are in pin stripes KD & poojer nice posts........................ 79952[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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