molson_golden2002 Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Great, I'm sure none of us can wait. I wish my brother was awake because I would have bet him all the money in his wallet that you would "start another thread". You are the one that brought up Iraq in an abortion thread, just thought it was good "board etiquette" to discuss it in its proper place. Here I'm trying to be good and you are making fun of me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 You are the one that brought up Iraq in an abortion thread, just thought it was good "board etiquette" to discuss it in its proper place. Here I'm trying to be good and you are making fun of me! Molson, I resist making fun of you 9 out of ten times. Yeah, it's really that bad. And I haven't seen you around for so long, I had to ask.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 The smart Republicans. This is probably going to happen because Roe vs. Wade doesn't do a very good job of setting a legal precedent for things like cloning or stem cell research. It's really a lawyer thing. Ask any objective lawyer and they will tell you it's simply bad law in terms of its functional capability to tell people what's cool and what isn't. It was a bad case to set a precedent on to begin with, and it's so old and goofy that nobody(legislatures) can use it to make good laws today. It's exactly like needing an "upgrade" for your software, because it's not compatible with new things. Now, I will grant you that the Republicans will try to get things like late-term abortions and ice-picking live babies in the neck out of what's "legal", but, the Democrats will probably take that in trade for keeping the birth control, morning after pill, and about 5 billion in sex ed and condoms. Well, that's how I would do it. Everybody gets something, we get a good law we can actually use, and we put this thing to bed forever and get on to the important stuff. Of course, politicians will probably do the opposite and find a way to f it up. I give my plan about one chance in 4 of actually happening. I don't mean to be rude, but what are you talking about? Simple fact is: the court can take about any case it wants on abortion and overturn Roe v. Wade. Republicans can make all the excuses it wants about how poorly its written, etc, etc. but its only an excuse. Legally, the other issues like cloning and stem cell are completely different and have nothing to do with Roe v. Wade. Likewise, "late term abortions" (however that's defined) skirt around R v W but do not take it head on. On the other hand, about any abortion issue can trigger the court to reverse R v W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Molson, I resist making fun of you 9 out of ten times. Yeah, it's really that bad. And I haven't seen you around for so long, I had to ask.... Its cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 I don't mean to be rude, but what are you talking about? Simple fact is: the court can take about any case it wants on abortion and overturn Roe v. Wade. Republicans can make all the excuses it wants about how poorly its written, etc, etc. but its only an excuse. Legally, the other issues like cloning and stem cell are completely different and have nothing to do with Roe v. Wade. Likewise, "late term abortions" (however that's defined) skirt around R v W but do not take it head on. On the other hand, about any abortion issue can trigger the court to reverse R v W. Dude, are you a lawyer? I'm not, and I am merely telling you what I have heard multiple lawyers, my friends and family, on both sides of the issue say. WTF do you want? Take it up with them, and leave me out of it. Isn't this why we pay these people? To figure out schit like this? Bad law that nobody can base new laws on is the exact same as bad foundation that you can do framing on. It's as simple as that. I don't make excuses, and I don't tolerate those who do, so cut the crap. You're inserting your opinion and I'm just talking about the facts. As I said, I don't agree with the pro-life position, so WTF do I possibly stand to gain here by saying the law sucks and needs to be upgraded? How in the hell do you figure that cloning and stem cells don't have everything in the world to do with the same legal concepts as abortion? This should be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Dude, are you a lawyer? I'm not, and I am merely telling you what I have heard multiple lawyers, my friends and family, on both sides of the issue say. WTF do you want? Take it up with them, and leave me out of it. Isn't this why we pay these people? To figure out schit like this? Bad law that nobody can base new laws on is the exact same as bad foundation that you can do framing on. It's as simple as that. I don't make excuses, and I don't tolerate those who do, so cut the crap. You're inserting your opinion and I'm just talking about the facts. As I said, I don't agree with the pro-life position, so WTF do I possibly stand to gain here by saying the law sucks and needs to be upgraded? How in the hell do you figure that cloning and stem cells don't have everything in the world to do with the same legal concepts as abortion? This should be good. First, legally those issue don't have anything to do with abortion and the Roe case. Second, "leave you out of it?" Does someone have a gun to your head and forced you bring this up and state your "facts?" If you don't know what you're saying then it's not a respondents fault for debating topics you don't have a working knowledge. We can't tell if you did poorly in law school or simply mimic what other people tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNYC Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 My wife and I were talking about this last night. She's pro choice but is voting for McCain/Palin. She's for first trimester abortion only, in cases of rape, for parents being present with a minor, and for medical treatment for a baby when an abortion fails. Basically, she's for it but with very strict guidelines. Although she's starting to now educate herself on Row vs Wade and abortion in general since she's pro choice but willing to vote for a pro-life ticket. Me, I don't know where the hell I stand. I think it's a woman's choice and me being a man can't give a fair opinion. I was probably leaning towards pro choice, but after unexpectedly having a kid, I know I would never want my wife to have an abortion unless there was a major life threatening health risk. I can understand the crazy right in wanting pro life, as I personally feel life begins at conception. Although I can see many cases where its just not a good situation for the mother or baby (rape, young age, health risks, etc) and understand the pro choice folks. What really bothers me about the crazy left are a couple things 1) Going to the extremes, like not wanting a law where the parents would have to be notified in the case of a minor, partial birth abortions, not treating a baby who survives an abortion, being against the 24 hour waiting period, etc. I am against making it being a simple procedure to have an abortion. Which brings me to 2) Liberals take the humanity out of it. I hate how they remove the human element from the fetus and the seriousness of the choice of an abortion. They want to remove all human elements of the entire procedure. My wife asked me to look up the abortion rate while we were talking last night and I checked out prolife.com and the pictures on there made me sick. I think if mothers were educated on what abortion really is, some may not go through with it. Liberals are against that and want to make abortion as easy as possible and make it out to be like going to the dentist. I think that's morally wrong. In the end, this issue is way too complicated and neither side is totally right or wrong, I just think the human element of it needs to be kept in the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 My wife and I were talking about this last night. She's pro choice but is voting for McCain/Palin. She's for first trimester abortion only, in cases of rape, for parents being present with a minor, and for medical treatment for a baby when an abortion fails. Basically, she's for it but with very strict guidelines. Although she's starting to now educate herself on Row vs Wade and abortion in general since she's pro choice but willing to vote for a pro-life ticket. Me, I don't know where the hell I stand. I think it's a woman's choice and me being a man can't give a fair opinion. I was probably leaning towards pro choice, but after unexpectedly having a kid, I know I would never want my wife to have an abortion unless there was a major life threatening health risk. I can understand the crazy right in wanting pro life, as I personally feel life begins at conception. Although I can see many cases where its just not a good situation for the mother or baby (rape, young age, health risks, etc) and understand the pro choice folks. What really bothers me about the crazy left are a couple things 1) Going to the extremes, like not wanting a law where the parents would have to be notified in the case of a minor, partial birth abortions, not treating a baby who survives an abortion, being against the 24 hour waiting period, etc. I am against making it being a simple procedure to have an abortion. Which brings me to 2) Liberals take the humanity out of it. I hate how they remove the human element from the fetus and the seriousness of the choice of an abortion. They want to remove all human elements of the entire procedure. My wife asked me to look up the abortion rate while we were talking last night and I checked out prolife.com and the pictures on there made me sick. I think if mothers were educated on what abortion really is, some may not go through with it. Liberals are against that and want to make abortion as easy as possible and make it out to be like going to the dentist. I think that's morally wrong. In the end, this issue is way too complicated and neither side is totally right or wrong, I just think the human element of it needs to be kept in the conversation. The human element is also the rights of the woman. And what she and likely her family and friends go through. Your well thought out post is tattered when your quick to paint well over half this nation as extremists who don't have deep, personal feelings about the human side and would never personally make such a choice. It's not that people want to have an abortion its that they want to maintain the right to choose to have one. Yes, there are extremists on both sides who are borderline sociopathic but you don't need to make broad assertions to strengthen your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 The human element is also the rights of the woman. And what she and likely her family and friends go through. Your well thought out post is tattered when your quick to paint well over half this nation as extremists who don't have deep, personal feelings about the human side and would never personally make such a choice. It's not that people want to have an abortion its that they want to maintain the right to choose to have one. Yes, there are extremists on both sides who are borderline sociopathic but you don't need to make broad assertions to strengthen your case. All I know is, if men were the ones that got pregnant, and women were the vast majority of players in politics, there very likely wouldn't be a great call by men to have women deciding what they can and can't do with their bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Complete crap. Perhaps you aren't familiar with this little document-->Contract with America Which was specifically predicated on NOT being about dumbass issues like abortion and school prayer. Buddy, do me a favor, before your next post, go to google, type in anything you are about to say, and read the first three links. This is like Molson_Retard version 3 Contract on American, yeh, I was there when it happened. It was an incredible p.r. piece. which predicated on conservative issues such as abortion couched as states' rights and took advantage of all the mistakes Dems had made after being in power for 40 years. The Dems got arrogant and caught with their pants down. Take a compliment when you can get it. Still with the angst thing. Down boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Why are Liberals for abortion (killing an unborn baby), but against the death penalty? I really do not understand this at all. Please enlighten me. I'm not a liberal and I don't like either thing. Abortion isn't even an issue to me. I really couldn't care less about it. When those on the right decide to take on the issue of unwanted children the same way they fund the military/industrial complex I'll believe that they actually care about abortion. Until then, they can kiss my ass, as well as the asses of the million or so kids that go to bed in government "homes" every night. That said, I really don't understand why anyone would have an abortion (outside rape/incest). That also sickens me. I don't like the death penalty because I don't like the idea of giving such a corrupt entity that much control over a process. I friggin' hate violent criminals and it pisses me off that we have to pay to house them and make people "take care" of them but the alternative is to run them through a "system" that is wholly unfair and completely rigged to the Prosecution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Here is something to shock the conservatives. Why are liberals for abortion and against the death penalty? Because one is a self-sustaining life, the other is not. Read that carefully... Notice I didn't put a timeline in there. And because of that, I am for the most part against abortion after a certain time. Let the debate rage! That's completely unspecified as to what constitutes value. Does life have value because it's sustainable, or because of the life itself. If because life itself always has value then who are we to say that someone has a choice as to whether one can kill life that will always be human? If it's because life is sustainable when do we advocate euthanasia, or even the value of the handicap? I don't see the distinction clearly in your argument, so clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 All I know is, if men were the ones that got pregnant, and women were the vast majority of players in politics, there very likely wouldn't be a great call by men to have women deciding what they can and can't do with their bodies. If the question were about what to do with a women's body you would be correct, but the issue is what to do with someone else's body in the body of women. You cannot equate the right of a women's body with the rights of someone else. The argument is does that life have rights, and if so when? Again, it's one of the liberal paradoxes that astound me as they are so much at war with protecting the lives of fetuses in the animal as a right to exist, but not to human life. Somehow the rights of eagle eggs, and lamb abortions are more important than human life. It's simply an eclipse of reason, a term I stole from Dr. Bernard Nathanson, leading abortionist in the 70's who became staunchly pro-life. The video is on youtube with scientific facts if you care to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Why are Liberals for abortion (killing an unborn baby), but against the death penalty? I really do not understand this at all. Please enlighten me. Why are right wingers for death penalty but against abortion. If life is sacred isnt all life sacred??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I'm not a liberal and I don't like either thing. Abortion isn't even an issue to me. I really couldn't care less about it. When those on the right decide to take on the issue of unwanted children the same way they fund the military/industrial complex I'll believe that they actually care about abortion. Until then, they can kiss my ass, as well as the asses of the million or so kids that go to bed in government "homes" every night. That said, I really don't understand why anyone would have an abortion (outside rape/incest). That also sickens me. I don't like the death penalty because I don't like the idea of giving such a corrupt entity that much control over a process. I friggin' hate violent criminals and it pisses me off that we have to pay to house them and make people "take care" of them but the alternative is to run them through a "system" that is wholly unfair and completely rigged to the Prosecution. [this is me having nothing to add] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 [this is me having nothing to add] What else is new Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 What else is new Go start another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Why are right wingers for death penalty but against abortion. If life is sacred isnt all life sacred??? This is easy. Abortion is the killing of innocent life, the death penalty is an act of justice against a criminal who merited to be taken from the world. Did you really have to conjure this one up as it's so basic? Each action is determined by its intent, and the action of both abortion and the death penalty are both the taking of life: one is for convenience and the taking of innocent life, the other is out of justice. It's like asking the same question about someone who is against abortion, but will fight in war and kill someone. The intent is radically different and a dumb-ass question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 This is easy. Abortion is the killing of innocent life, the death penalty is an act of justice against a criminal who merited to be taken from the world. Did you really have to conjure this one up as it's so basic? Each action is determined by its intent, and the action of both abortion and the death penalty are both the taking of life: one is for convenience and the taking of innocent life, the other is out of justice. It's like asking the same question about someone who is against abortion, but will fight in war and kill someone. The intent is radically different and a dumb-ass question. Did you get you anti-Abortion super hero doll yet? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...rity-soars.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 This is easy. Abortion is the killing of innocent life, the death penalty is an act of justice against a criminal who merited to be taken from the world. Did you really have to conjure this one up as it's so basic? Each action is determined by its intent, and the action of both abortion and the death penalty are both the taking of life: one is for convenience and the taking of innocent life, the other is out of justice. It's like asking the same question about someone who is against abortion, but will fight in war and kill someone. The intent is radically different and a dumb-ass question. convenience?!! justice?!! give me a break (actually two!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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