StupidNation Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Can it be good to raise tariffs, drop all managed trade that we call "free-trade", and almost go into isolationism without totally blocking off all trade, but limiting it without high tariffs to protect American jobs and factories? Seriously, I would like an answer on this because I really don't see the down-side to this except... The economy is becoming global, like it or not it's coming. People can outsource all office work from phone calls to bookkeeping, and even paralegal work. How do you really police that except by way of threat and fines? I don't know. I also could see the big backlash in quality of manufacturing, although it didn't bother us before when that was the policy that kept us wealthy as a nation until recently and the quality of US made goods were above world average on most items. Well, what say you? Bring back strong manufacturing and strong jobs again? Is it possible philosophically with our role of the economy changing with technology, and secondly what is the best implementation? I just see the death of the middle-class and it's horrible. Just looking for answers. Disclaimer: I didn't start this to begin partisan hijacking of individuals politicians, but ideologically. With that said let the hijacking begin!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Can it be good to raise tariffs, drop all managed trade that we call "free-trade", and almost go into isolationism without totally blocking off all trade, but limiting it without high tariffs to protect American jobs and factories? Seriously, I would like an answer on this because I really don't see the down-side to this except... The economy is becoming global, like it or not it's coming. People can outsource all office work from phone calls to bookkeeping, and even paralegal work. How do you really police that except by way of threat and fines? I don't know. I also could see the big backlash in quality of manufacturing, although it didn't bother us before when that was the policy that kept us wealthy as a nation until recently and the quality of US made goods were above world average on most items. Well, what say you? Bring back strong manufacturing and strong jobs again? Is it possible philosophically with our role of the economy changing with technology, and secondly what is the best implementation? I just see the death of the middle-class and it's horrible. Just looking for answers. Disclaimer: I didn't start this to begin partisan hijacking of individuals politicians, but ideologically. With that said let the hijacking begin!!! Open an history book and check what happened to all countries who have tried isolationism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 Open an history book and check what happened to all countries who have tried isolationism... Most of them prospered, most especially China of recent. While China doesn't have a middle-class to re-route the money back into the military system, they certainly are doing well with high import tariffs and becoming strong with a big manufacturing base. Their middle class problem is more a problem with Communism, not their economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Most of them prospered, most especially China of recent. While China doesn't have a middle-class to re-route the money back into the military system, they certainly are doing well with high import tariffs and becoming strong with a big manufacturing base. Their middle class problem is more a problem with Communism, not their economy. China isolationist?? an isolationist economy does not import NOR export. The success of China is based on occidental stupidity that has accepted china imports without the lowering of china import tariffs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 China isolationist?? an isolationist economy does not import NOR export. The success of China is based on occidental stupidity that has accepted china imports without the lowering of china import tariffs... Notice I said semi-isolationist, not total isolationist. I've clarified what I meant but if you want to believe I said that you can. What I mean is strong import tariffs while trying to export as much as possible, much like America circa 1955, and currently China. The success of China has more to do with deregulation than stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 I don't think isolation is possible any more. Maybe for aboriginal societies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Notice I said semi-isolationist, not total isolationist. I've clarified what I meant but if you want to believe I said that you can. What I mean is strong import tariffs while trying to export as much as possible, much like America circa 1955, and currently China. And what kind of trade partners are you gonna find who will accept to buy your goods without you buying their? While the US industry is yet not very efficient for exporting goods (even with the current low dollar), i can not imagine how bad it 'd become if you raised imports tariffs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Notice I said semi-isolationist, not total isolationist. I've clarified what I meant but if you want to believe I said that you can. What I mean is strong import tariffs while trying to export as much as possible, much like America circa 1955, and currently China. The success of China has more to do with deregulation than stupidity. the success of china has more to do with their ridiculously low labor rate, that allows an obscene amount of exports vs imports. I am not passing judgment here, just that the USA could never compete on that basis and American companies will continue to outsource manufacturing to countries like China because of the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 the success of china has more to do with their ridiculously low labor rate, that allows an obscene amount of exports vs imports. I am not passing judgment here, just that the USA could never compete on that basis and American companies will continue to outsource manufacturing to countries like China because of the bottom line. Well that's my overall point... we can't compete with them at all and we trade with them increasing our balance deficit while simultaneously wiping out the middle class. How do you fix that without raising tariffs and stopping the illusion of free trade under managed trade agreements. Just looking for views... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Well that's my overall point... we can't compete with them at all and we trade with them increasing our balance deficit while simultaneously wiping out the middle class. How do you fix that without raising tariffs and stopping the illusion of free trade under managed trade agreements. Just looking for views... if we think that America can be successful in the 21st century by becoming even somewhat isolationist or protectionist, we will self-destruct. We cannot expect to return to the past where manufacturing is our strength, because we cannot compete with third world countries, and depending on you define them, places like China or India. We need to invest and innovate, and be willing to export the production and outsource some other functions as necessary. Computer software is a good example. Japan or China can put 100s or 1000s of developers to work, and still not be able to build world class products, because you have to innovate and create something, not just make it cheaper, faster, or smaller. Even countries like India are not leaders in software, we merely outsource certain activities that more cost effective to produce outside the US. We might not like it, but companies make decisions that improve their balance sheet, and the cost of development and production are a huge factor. Tariffs and protectionist policies simply don't work in the global economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 4, 2008 Author Share Posted September 4, 2008 if we think that America can be successful in the 21st century by becoming even somewhat isolationist or protectionist, we will self-destruct. We cannot expect to return to the past where manufacturing is our strength, because we cannot compete with third world countries, and depending on you define them, places like China or India. We need to invest and innovate, and be willing to export the production and outsource some other functions as necessary. Computer software is a good example. Japan or China can put 100s or 1000s of developers to work, and still not be able to build world class products, because you have to innovate and create something, not just make it cheaper, faster, or smaller. Even countries like India are not leaders in software, we merely outsource certain activities that more cost effective to produce outside the US. We might not like it, but companies make decisions that improve their balance sheet, and the cost of development and production are a huge factor. Tariffs and protectionist policies simply don't work in the global economy. I'm not disagreeing with you one bit. My question is knowing this how do you protect the middle class long-term? I know what will probably happen, but how can the middle class be protected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 I'm not disagreeing with you one bit. My question is knowing this how do you protect the middle class long-term? I know what will probably happen, but how can the middle class be protected? "protection"? you start to sound like a frenchman! not a good sign!! It's when you start to want to "protect" what you are that you start to decline. What about trying to success, to win, to create, to gain market shares?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted September 4, 2008 Author Share Posted September 4, 2008 "protection"? you start to sound like a frenchman! not a good sign!! It's when you start to want to "protect" what you are that you start to decline. What about trying to success, to win, to create, to gain market shares?!! Well they explain what you would do to succeed? France isn't protecting anything by the way, they are self-destructing. Tell me the French prognostications for citizens in 20 years? If you want to throw stones you're being idiotic. Tell me how you succeed in today's market place. I'm interested to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Well they explain what you would do to succeed? France isn't protecting anything by the way, they are self-destructing. Tell me the French prognostications for citizens in 20 years? If you want to throw stones you're being idiotic. Tell me how you succeed in today's market place. I'm interested to know. can you read my last post again, please? i think you may have LIGHTLY misunderstood it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 can you read my last post again, please? i think you may have LIGHTLY misunderstood it!!! Nice. Punked him with your own country and in another language. I got your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passepartout Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 For some countries it is good And for some others, it ain't so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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