Thoughts and concerns

[1billsfan]

I've heard many here say not to worry, that Evans will be signed to a long term extension of his current contract which is in its last year. Well the season starts this Sunday and he's still not signed. This after the Bills spent money like drunken sailors on above average to below average players in '07. What gives here? The Bills supposedly made themselves a sweetheart deal with Toronto, moved home games out of Wilson Stadium and fans like me feel like they are not 100% committed to winning. Allow me to also bring Peters into the conversation. This is another player that I would call a "star" player. I think he's on the level of an offensive version of a young Bruce Smith. Yet the Bills can't seem to get the ball rolling and are holding firm in their beliefs that all players on their roster should be dealt with as equals. I know that the agent and Peters have also been at fault, but I still think the Bills are not sending a very good message with their lack of reaching out. The fact is that Peters has outplayed his current contract by a whole lot. The Bills have a boatload of newly found money and are acting as if they would rather save money by letting a player leave via free agency or sit on the sidelines, than pay a top dollar contract for any player regardless of how good they are or what they've done for this team. Ralph isn't poor. He has the money, his team is supposedly on the cusp of of the next great era of Bills football, yet he's acting like a small minded skinflint with their best players on the team. I just don't get it. I'm disheartened by the lack of any movement on either front. I should be filled with hope for the long term future success of the Buffalo Bills, but this is not the case heading into this season. I know that we're all excited about the new season, I just wanted to share my concerns about this organization here and see if anyone else felt the same way.

[DrDawkinstein]

so you are concluding that the entire thing can be explained by the Bills lack of effort in signing Evans, and Ralph's cheapness...

 

with no regard to the notion that it MIGHT JUST BE Evans and his agent who want to see how (at least) the beginning of the season goes. if he has an amazing year, he may not WANT to sign with us considering it was just proven this past off-season that you can find an owner desperate enough to make an inflated, bonehead offer.

 

the fact is, you (nor any of us) have ANY IDEA where talks with the Evans camp are. Lee seems like a happy team player right now, so why isnt that good enough for right now?

 

furthermore, the Peters situation has nothing to do with this. and your comparison to an "offensive Bruce Smith" is absolutely ridiculous overkill.

 

do i agree that the Bills have enough money to sign both of these players to FAIR (that means FOR BOTH SIDES) contracts? yes

do i think that Ralph should just throw big contracts at these guys at the sacrifice of any and all future contract negotiations? hells no

 

if you can say "Ralph has the money, he should spend it" then "these players are already millionaires, they should play for less" is a completely reasonable argument too...

[PromoTheRobot]

I've heard many here say not to worry, that Evans will be signed to a long term extension of his current contract which is in its last year. Well the season starts this Sunday and he's still not signed. This after the Bills spent money like drunken sailors on above average to below average players in '07. What gives here? The Bills supposedly made themselves a sweetheart deal with Toronto, moved home games out of Wilson Stadium and fans like me feel like they are not 100% committed to winning. Allow me to also bring Peters into the conversation. This is another player that I would call a "star" player. I think he's on the level of an offensive version of a young Bruce Smith. Yet the Bills can't seem to get the ball rolling and are holding firm in their beliefs that all players on their roster should be dealt with as equals. I know that the agent and Peters have also been at fault, but I still think the Bills are not sending a very good message with their lack of reaching out. The fact is that Peters has outplayed his current contract by a whole lot. The Bills have a boatload of newly found money and are acting as if they would rather save money by letting a player leave via free agency or sit on the sidelines, than pay a top dollar contract for any player regardless of how good they are or what they've done for this team. Ralph isn't poor. He has the money, his team is supposedly on the cusp of of the next great era of Bills football, yet he's acting like a small minded skinflint with their best players on the team. I just don't get it. I'm disheartened by the lack of any movement on either front. I should be filled with hope for the long term future success of the Buffalo Bills, but this is not the case heading into this season. I know that we're all excited about the new season, I just wanted to share my concerns about this organization here and see if anyone else felt the same way.

You do realize that when you negotiate a contract, you aren't just paying someone X dollars, you are establishing a benchmark that ripples throughout the league. Lee Evans is a good WR. Is he the best WR in the NFL? What if you pay him like he is? Then every WR who thinks he's better than Evans will want his deal plus X. And of course the ripples come back to Buffalo when Hardy wants his new deal.

 

So please don't oversimplify the process.

 

PTR

[DrDawkinstein]

i can only imagine how ridiculous this board is going to be in a few years when it is time to re-sign Lynch, Hardy, Whitner, Poz, McKelvin and (hopefully) Edwards...

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

so you are concluding that the entire thing can be explained by the Bills lack of effort in signing Evans, and Ralph's cheapness...

 

with no regard to the notion that it MIGHT JUST BE Evans and his agent who want to see how (at least) the beginning of the season goes. if he has an amazing year, he may not WANT to sign with us considering it was just proven this past off-season that you can find an owner desperate enough to make an inflated, bonehead offer.

 

the fact is, you (nor any of us) have ANY IDEA where talks with the Evans camp are. Lee seems like a happy team player right now, so why isnt that good enough for right now?

 

furthermore, the Peters situation has nothing to do with this. and your comparison to an "offensive Bruce Smith" is absolutely ridiculous overkill.

 

do i agree that the Bills have enough money to sign both of these players to FAIR (that means FOR BOTH SIDES) contracts? yes

do i think that Ralph should just throw big contracts at these guys at the sacrifice of any and all future contract negotiations? hells no

 

if you can say "Ralph has the money, he should spend it" then "these players are already millionaires, they should play for less" is a completely reasonable argument too...

good post Dr

[1billsfan]

so you are concluding that the entire thing can be explained by the Bills lack of effort in signing Evans, and Ralph's cheapness...

 

with no regard to the notion that it MIGHT JUST BE Evans and his agent who want to see how (at least) the beginning of the season goes. if he has an amazing year, he may not WANT to sign with us considering it was just proven this past off-season that you can find an owner desperate enough to make an inflated, bonehead offer.

 

the fact is, you (nor any of us) have ANY IDEA where talks with the Evans camp are. Lee seems like a happy team player right now, so why isnt that good enough for right now?

 

furthermore, the Peters situation has nothing to do with this. and your comparison to an "offensive Bruce Smith" is absolutely ridiculous overkill.

 

do i agree that the Bills have enough money to sign both of these players to FAIR (that means FOR BOTH SIDES) contracts? yes

do i think that Ralph should just throw big contracts at these guys at the sacrifice of any and all future contract negotiations? hells no

 

if you can say "Ralph has the money, he should spend it" then "these players are already millionaires, they should play for less" is a completely reasonable argument too...

 

These NFL teams get players coming and going. They get them on the cheap with their rookie deals (not count top five draft picks of course), and they get them on the back end of their careers when they tell older players to take a pay cut or get released. I'm not the bleeding heart for ownership that some here clearly are. These players have a VERY small window to "cash in" and I'm very concerned that the Bills have jumped off the "big contract" train till Ralph dies and a new owner takes his place. We're all trying to read the tea leaves here and I frankly just don't understand the Bills dealings with their best players. When you play above and beyond what was expected, you SHOULD be rewarded with something more than an atta-boy and a pat on the back. These guys are exceptional and should be dealt with as exceptions. I didn't want to get into the same debate, I just wanted to see if others have a weird sense that the Bills will never pay a bigtime contract again until Ralph is gone.

[DrFishfinder]

I've heard many here say not to worry.....I just wanted to share my concerns about this organization here and see if anyone else felt the same way.

Peters needs to show up TO play and Evans needs to show up AND play. Peters is hurting his stock in the league by acting like such a prima donna. Sure he's a very good player. However, he is not the ONLY very good player. How many other teams would be willing to deal with that kind of attitude? Parcells? Belichick? Coughlin? Dungy? I thinketh not, if thou catcheth my drift, and I thinkest thou doth.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I'm not the bleeding heart for ownership that some here clearly are.

I don't think anyone would make that mistake.

[DrDawkinstein]

These NFL teams get players coming and going. They get them on the cheap with their rookie deals (not count top five draft picks of course), and they get them on the back end of their careers when they tell older players to take a pay cut or get released. I'm not the bleeding heart for ownership that some here clearly are. These players have a VERY small window to "cash in" and I'm very concerned that the Bills have jumped off the "big contract" train till Ralph dies and a new owner takes his place. We're all trying to read the tea leaves here and I frankly just don't understand the Bills dealings with their best players. When you play above and beyond what was expected, you SHOULD be rewarded with something more than an atta-boy and a pat on the back. These guys are exceptional and should be dealt with as exceptions. I didn't want to get into the same debate, I just wanted to see if others have a weird sense that the Bills will never pay a bigtime contract again until Ralph is gone.

 

what exactly DO we know about the FO's dealings with their best players?

 

we know they re-signed Schobel after they paid Kelsay. they rewarded him for his consistent productivity over his many years on the team.

 

we know they extended Peters to a pretty hefty deal after only 1 year at Tackle.

 

we know they went out and got a LOT of veteran FA help on both sides of the line and are paying them nicely.

 

we know they made Clements a reasonable offer that most players would have taken. However, Clements was in the VERY fortunate position of hitting the market at a prime time,and the 49ers threw $100mil at him.

 

we know they already extended Parrish.

 

we know they are at least TRYING to re-sign Evans.

 

 

whats the problem exactly? oh yeah, one whiny LT is sitting home, getting fat on bad advice from his agent and youve lost all faith in our new front office...

[Lurker]

paragraphing

[Flutie Flakes]

I've heard many here say not to worry, that Evans will be signed to a long term extension of his current contract which is in its last year. Well the season starts this Sunday and he's still not signed. This after the Bills spent money like drunken sailors on above average to below average players in '07. What gives here? The Bills supposedly made themselves a sweetheart deal with Toronto, moved home games out of Wilson Stadium and fans like me feel like they are not 100% committed to winning. Allow me to also bring Peters into the conversation. This is another player that I would call a "star" player. I think he's on the level of an offensive version of a young Bruce Smith. Yet the Bills can't seem to get the ball rolling and are holding firm in their beliefs that all players on their roster should be dealt with as equals. I know that the agent and Peters have also been at fault, but I still think the Bills are not sending a very good message with their lack of reaching out. The fact is that Peters has outplayed his current contract by a whole lot. The Bills have a boatload of newly found money and are acting as if they would rather save money by letting a player leave via free agency or sit on the sidelines, than pay a top dollar contract for any player regardless of how good they are or what they've done for this team. Ralph isn't poor. He has the money, his team is supposedly on the cusp of of the next great era of Bills football, yet he's acting like a small minded skinflint with their best players on the team. I just don't get it. I'm disheartened by the lack of any movement on either front. I should be filled with hope for the long term future success of the Buffalo Bills, but this is not the case heading into this season. I know that we're all excited about the new season, I just wanted to share my concerns about this organization here and see if anyone else felt the same way.

 

It certainly is not just about the money. The Bills organization has been more than fair and in my opinion, too generous at times with some of the re-negotiated contracts they have given other players. However, in the Peters situation, he has not so much as made one phone call to the organization (as far as we know) other than to speak with Derrick Dockery. He is coming off groin surgery and I agree with the organizations stance that he shows up, plays and then they will consider re-writing his contract after the season. Yes, he is in my opinion underpaid for his position but nobody put a gun to his head when he signed his last contract. He needs to honor it and show up PERIOD. Also, he owes some loyalty to the organization who gave an unknown TE from U. Arkansas a shot as an undrafted free agent, worked with him refining his skills and saw that he was better suited to play on the o-line.

 

Regarding Lee Evans, I agree that it is critical that they put a deal together but as another person stated, the Bills organization is only one side of the equation. On the advice of his agent, he may waiting to see how the season pans out.

 

It is not about the organization having "deep pockets" as it is about setting precedence with respect to player contracts. Yeah it would suck not to have Peters play this year and to lose Evans would be a major loss for our team. But how the organization handles itself (especially with Peters) certainly will have ramifications for many years to come.

[VOR]

Considering a guy like Bernard Berrian signed a 6-year $42M contract this past off-season and isn't as good as Evans, I can see him asking for 6-years $45M. If that's true, at those numbers, which are close to what the 2009 franchise WR tender will be (~$7.8M), I'd hold-off on re-signing him right now and see how the season plays out.

[Dan]

I've heard many here say not to worry, that Evans will be signed to a long term extension of his current contract which is in its last year. Well the season starts this Sunday and he's still not signed. This after the Bills spent money like drunken sailors on above average to below average players in '07. What gives here? The Bills supposedly made themselves a sweetheart deal with Toronto, moved home games out of Wilson Stadium and fans like me feel like they are not 100% committed to winning. Allow me to also bring Peters into the conversation. This is another player that I would call a "star" player. I think he's on the level of an offensive version of a young Bruce Smith. Yet the Bills can't seem to get the ball rolling and are holding firm in their beliefs that all players on their roster should be dealt with as equals. I know that the agent and Peters have also been at fault, but I still think the Bills are not sending a very good message with their lack of reaching out. The fact is that Peters has outplayed his current contract by a whole lot. The Bills have a boatload of newly found money and are acting as if they would rather save money by letting a player leave via free agency or sit on the sidelines, than pay a top dollar contract for any player regardless of how good they are or what they've done for this team. Ralph isn't poor. He has the money, his team is supposedly on the cusp of of the next great era of Bills football, yet he's acting like a small minded skinflint with their best players on the team. I just don't get it. I'm disheartened by the lack of any movement on either front. I should be filled with hope for the long term future success of the Buffalo Bills, but this is not the case heading into this season. I know that we're all excited about the new season, I just wanted to share my concerns about this organization here and see if anyone else felt the same way.

So now Peters is on his way to the HOF? Peters is in no way comparable to Bruce. Please refrain from such lunacy.

[DrFishfinder]

So now Peters is on his way to the HOF? Peters is in no way comparable to Bruce. Please refrain from such lunacy.

Hell....even Bruce can't compare to Bruce. Wait....Lee or Smith? Sorry.....couldn't 'hep m'sef.

[d_wag]

Considering a guy like Bernard Berrian signed a 6-year $42M contract this past off-season and isn't as good as Evans, I can see him asking for 6-years $45M. If that's true, at those numbers, which are close to what the 2009 franchise WR tender will be (~$7.8M), I'd hold-off on re-signing him right now and see how the season plays out.

 

if he would take that deal i'm sure the bills would have it done in a flash.........he'll easily top that, whether he reups with the bills or signs elsewhere when his F-Tag number gets too high

[Pyrite Gal]

what exactly DO we know about the FO's dealings with their best players?

 

we know they re-signed Schobel after they paid Kelsay. they rewarded him for his consistent productivity over his many years on the team.

 

we know they extended Peters to a pretty hefty deal after only 1 year at Tackle.

 

we know they went out and got a LOT of veteran FA help on both sides of the line and are paying them nicely.

 

we know they made Clements a reasonable offer that most players would have taken. However, Clements was in the VERY fortunate position of hitting the market at a prime time,and the 49ers threw $100mil at him.

 

we know they already extended Parrish.

 

we know they are at least TRYING to re-sign Evans.

 

 

whats the problem exactly? oh yeah, one whiny LT is sitting home, getting fat on bad advice from his agent and youve lost all faith in our new front office...

I think folks have a problem with Peters AND the Bills having not managed their relationship in a manner that seems productive.

 

Is Jason Peters at fault for not living up to his word?

 

YES!

 

Are the Bills at fault for not finding a way with Peters stupid reaction to not finding someway to acknowledge the reality that he would be worth a lot more on the free market today than when he signed his contract IF a free market existed.

 

Yes.

 

The foolish thing here and what has cost this team chemistry building time in pre-season is the complete breakdown of conversation in the partnership between the player and his team.

 

Sure Peters is a fool but does this mean the Bills have not failed completely in establishing a working relationship with this fool.

 

Being a good owner and doing the tough work means dealing with steroid loaded and pampered players.

 

The Bills have proved not be good enough to do this so far.

[BillsVet]

You do realize that when you negotiate a contract, you aren't just paying someone X dollars, you are establishing a benchmark that ripples throughout the league. Lee Evans is a good WR. Is he the best WR in the NFL? What if you pay him like he is? Then every WR who thinks he's better than Evans will want his deal plus X. And of course the ripples come back to Buffalo when Hardy wants his new deal.

 

So please don't oversimplify the process.

 

PTR

 

It's not one or a group of teams responsibility to manage salaries and ensure other teams don't have to spend more. The Vikings have spent a bunch of money this year, and I'm sure their first goal is to get into the playoffs and make some more money, not keep other teams spending down. They also made the Hutchinson deal in 06, and the market has been set. It may not be fair to you, but it's the NFL's economic reality.

 

The truth is, no team can realistically plan 2-3 years into the future. There may be a loose framework established, but ask the Cowboys if they thought Tony Romo would be a franchise QB in 2004. Or how about Willie Parker going from Pittsburgh's 3rd stringer in 04 to being a standout RB by 06? Strange things happen which surprise even the best front offices. Peters is a fine example, and while I'm not going to comment on the current saga, no one in 2004 could have predicted he'd be selected to the Pro Bowl at OLT.

 

Even savvy personnel people can't predict who'll come out of nowhere. And it's certainly not a league wide responsibility to keep spending down. The cap already does that. If there's any question, check the MLB and NBA salaries, where 10M a year is only a decent sized contract, not a giant one.

[nero47]

Peters gets injured at the end of last season. He is voted to the Pro-Bowl. He has a contract which pays 3.5Mil per year (5.0 with incentive of playing half the snaps - Highly probable). Instead of coming in for OTA's or even mandatory Workouts, he cuts off all communication with the team, presumably on the advice of his agent. His agent and the team are no longer talking to one another. Who is at fault? Neither, in the world of negotiation there is an old adage,"Once all the information is on the table, shut up. The first one to speak loses." This is what is happening and both sides are playing it well. The Bills know what JP is worth in terms of going to the playoffs. He is the better player to protect the QB, so they can get there. JP's agent knows this and is hoping for Walker to get seriously injured, to give his client more leverage.

 

On the other hand if the QB's go down, the season is shot and JP may as well sit until next year, as he will not be needed this year.

 

As for the money, I believe JP got a longer contract when he signed, with a bonus and incentives. Does anyone know what that contract was? I've heard 15mil for five years. It must have seemed like an awful lot two years ago. Now it's not about money but the recognition that the money brings

[SwampD]

I've heard many here say not to worry, that Evans will be signed to a long term extension of his current contract which is in its last year. Well the season starts this Sunday and he's still not signed. This after the Bills spent money like drunken sailors on above average to below average players in '07. What gives here? The Bills supposedly made themselves a sweetheart deal with Toronto, moved home games out of Wilson Stadium and fans like me feel like they are not 100% committed to winning. Allow me to also bring Peters into the conversation. This is another player that I would call a "star" player. I think he's on the level of an offensive version of a young Bruce Smith. Yet the Bills can't seem to get the ball rolling and are holding firm in their beliefs that all players on their roster should be dealt with as equals. I know that the agent and Peters have also been at fault, but I still think the Bills are not sending a very good message with their lack of reaching out. The fact is that Peters has outplayed his current contract by a whole lot. The Bills have a boatload of newly found money and are acting as if they would rather save money by letting a player leave via free agency or sit on the sidelines, than pay a top dollar contract for any player regardless of how good they are or what they've done for this team. Ralph isn't poor. He has the money, his team is supposedly on the cusp of of the next great era of Bills football, yet he's acting like a small minded skinflint with their best players on the team. I just don't get it. I'm disheartened by the lack of any movement on either front. I should be filled with hope for the long term future success of the Buffalo Bills, but this is not the case heading into this season. I know that we're all excited about the new season, I just wanted to share my concerns about this organization here and see if anyone else felt the same way.

If you ask me, not signing lee evans yet might actually help him in the long run. I personally don't think he's that great that we have to make sure that we keep him. Don't get me wrong, he's good, I just don't think he's irreplacable. If he has a great year he might even make more than he would have if he signs now.

 

In another scenerio, say we sign him this week to a four year deal...then he has a lights-out, Pro Bowl year..then thinks his contract isn't good and decides to hold out with three years left on his contract. Hey, it's happened before.

 

All that aside, I see a Bills team right now that looks better on both sides of the ball than they did last year. I'm excited for the season to start. Aaahh, "Hope Springs Eternal"

[kota]

People need to attend an economics class someplace.

 

Larger CAP = Larger Contracts = Toronto Games. The Bills are poor and i doubt they made a whole lot of money last year. The Green Bay Packers only made 20 million last year and they went to the NFC Championship game and also have Brent Farve a money making machine.

 

You can't sign anyone and everyone you want. Personally most teams spend money based upon the needs of one year. You say the Bills overpaid for average players last year and i disagree. It isn't overpaying it's paying what the market value is at. The Bills needed a OL upgrade bad last year and they did that. They got to good FA's who have played well for the Bills. They aren't pro bowlers but out of a league of thousands only so many people can go to Pro bowl.

 

People also need to understand that just because there is CAP room doesn't mean the Bills can actually spend to the CAP to stay out of the RED.