Kelly the Dog Posted August 26, 2008 Posted August 26, 2008 To be fair and balanced, Kelly, my point is that no one knows exactly what will happen if/when Peters shows up, no matter what anyone says, and even looking at what Graham has reported, one can just as easily see that negotiations could begin right away, perhaps aiming at starting the new money in 2009, but perhaps coming earlier if both sides agree. I am not shilling for either side here, but am amazed at how one line from Brandon is being taken as a fixed reality when we all know that everything is negotiable. We have been through this before, but we do know, with 99.9% certainty, because if both sides wanted it done, and (basically) agreed on the amount, it would be done. There is no question it would be done if the Bills were willing to go that high. Sure, you would be technically right to say no one knows what would happen, but it totally defies all logic that the Bills will give them what they want, which would make Peters happy and the agent happy and the management happy and the teammates happy and the fans happy, but the Bills are just not telling Parker they will go that high.
Max997 Posted August 26, 2008 Posted August 26, 2008 Someone posted this on BZ, so I figured I would post it here. There are quite a few interesting things in here and the writer basically says that Jason Peters is by himself in all this. I think personally it's bad advice from his agent, who wants to get paid i think his agent is doing just fine without Peters getting a new deal so saying thats why he is holding out is weak Peters is as much to blame here as his agent. I was concerned about this last year when Peters starting getting more and more hype from media about how good he was. The fact that he or his agent havent called the Bills is pathetic. The Bills have a history of extending their good players that want to be in Buffalo
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 We have been through this before, but we do know, with 99.9% certainty, because if both sides wanted it done, and (basically) agreed on the amount, it would be done. There is no question it would be done if the Bills were willing to go that high. Sure, you would be technically right to say no one knows what would happen, but it totally defies all logic that the Bills will give them what they want, which would make Peters happy and the agent happy and the management happy and the teammates happy and the fans happy, but the Bills are just not telling Parker they will go that high. I must say I'm not sure what you want to argue, Kelly... In other threads you say that you do not think the Bills will give Peters everything he wants, and that you agree with that, and that you think it likely that the holdout will end and then talks will begin. I find that position to be eminently sensible, and that was the basis of my comments. Of course the Bills will not just give him that. There is no logic to defy. We both agree that there will need to be negotiations. We both know that there will be none if he does not come to camp. We also both know that once those negotiations get going there are many possible outcomes. Yet when I make that point, especially in response to those who want to place all blame solely on the Bills, you now imply that the only reason for this impasse is the Bills' refusal to give in. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but that opinion appears to shift depending on how close someone comes to agreeing with you. The closer they get, the more you run away, claiming distinctions invisible to the naked eye.
Trader Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 The spin is absolutely dizzying. The agents who criticize Parker's tactics are doing so only because they want to see him fired and then snatch up Peters. The Bills "threw money" at players who showed a commitment to the team yet are "making an example" of poor Jason. Your getting close to the truth here. Most of the reporters and agents who comment on this matter have some kind of an agenda. Reporters and GM's need friends in the press. They leak their friends information. The press people need scoops they scoop up the sh-- they are fed and report it to us. Who knows what is for real and what is planted for effect. Unfortunately if Peters does not get to camp prior to the season he is done here. Even if he comes in it may be several weeks before he sees the field. He probably has done damage to the Bills and his career. The only way to know how much damage to each will only be revealed with the passing of time. Greed is an dangerous thing. Pigs always get slaughtered in the end.
Trader Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Did anyone do the math? If Peters sit out the whole year, how much money will he be paid? If I was the Bills, I let him sit out the whole year. Then I will find a sucker to trade up for a 1st rounder pick in 2009 draft. If no such sucker can be found, I will let him sit out for the second year. This may not make sense money wise, but is a good way to build a reputation. Very soon, other teams will copy them and we will finally be able take these greed sport agents under control. Ralph wants to leave a legacy when he goes. He is just may be more interested in teaching this group of younger owners and agents how to run a professional sports league as a business than he is in winning a super bowl.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 I must say I'm not sure what you want to argue, Kelly... In other threads you say that you do not think the Bills will give Peters everything he wants, and that you agree with that, and that you think it likely that the holdout will end and then talks will begin. I find that position to be eminently sensible, and that was the basis of my comments. Of course the Bills will not just give him that. There is no logic to defy. We both agree that there will need to be negotiations. We both know that there will be none if he does not come to camp. We also both know that once those negotiations get going there are many possible outcomes. Yet when I make that point, especially in response to those who want to place all blame solely on the Bills, you now imply that the only reason for this impasse is the Bills' refusal to give in. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but that opinion appears to shift depending on how close someone comes to agreeing with you. The closer they get, the more you run away, claiming distinctions invisible to the naked eye. No, I am just trying to explain what I see as happening, from both sides, meaning the Bills perspective, and the Peters/Parker perspective. I have been very consistent on all of it. (BTW, I never said talks would begin when he comes in, I don't believe they will. Not meaningful talks, until next year) The confusion comes from perhaps you thinking that because I have been saying that the Bills won't negotiate with Parker, that I believe they are wrong, and I'm not saying that at all. I am on the Bills side, completely, on the contract. I think the Bills are doing the right thing. And I think that Parker and Peters have been just seeing how far they can take it, see if the Bills crack, see if injuries force the Bills hand, see if terrible play and getting their QB killed makes the team change their mind, and laying the groundwork for next years holdout and real negotiation. None of that stuff happened (except laying the groundwork). The Bills didn't cave, and now I think he will show up soon and play. But that doesn't mean that I believe the Bills have any intention whatsoever of paying Peters what he is asking for right now. And that is why there is an impasse and a holdout. The Bills not negotiating is why he is not in camp, not the other way around. I don't think it has anything to do at all with the fact he isn't in camp. Because if he was, they still would have the exact same position: He is not going to get paid anything more in 2008, and he is not going to get what he wants, right now, in 2009 either (meaning 10+ mil). That is why he is holding out, IMO. He wants it now, or he wants 10+ mil a year, and they are not willing to give him either of that now. They may very well be willing to give it to him after this season. The Bills, IMO, don't want to give it to him now for several very good reasons: he already renegotiated, they have him for 3-5 years anyway, they already spent 100 mil on the OL last year, and they want to extend Evans first (not because he is in camp but because he is voiding his last year and will be a FA next year if they don't). Then I said the reason I believe this, or know this, is because if they WERE willing to do it, willing to pay him now, even for 2009, it would be done already. So it's very reasonable to assume they are not willing.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Because it was in the Bill's best interest at the time to re-do the contract, particually I recall for Schobel. The Bill's wanted cap relief so they re-did the contract to push $$ out. Peter's on the other hand has a very manageable cap amount, so no need to re-write the deal. And again neither of those two guys held out with three years left on their contract. In regards to the Bills not willing to re-do the contract in 2008, I don't recall the Bill's stating that until recently. Maybe if he had come to mini camp back in May/June and all of training camp it would have already been re-done. But now as this article points out, it likely will take him some time to get up to pro bowl shape again. So why pay a guy pro-bowl money until he can play like a pro bowler which may take half the year. On top of that throw in the fact that the last thing he did was get injured and the Bills have little knowledge of his recovery, thye'd be nuts to re-do the contract now. They could re-do the contract late in the year too, like around December particually if they have some injuries and need to sign some players and need money. If they already decided they were going to re-do it by March and maybe have had discussions to at least know what the likely number will be, they could move it up a couple of months, again more likely to happen if it benefits the Bills. The one point I really like about this article is how it pointed out that at the time the contract he signed wasa good deal. The Bills took a chance as they had no idea if he even would become a good right tackle. But they paid him the $$ then anyway. I'm feeling it too. Think of all the late round project guys we wasted time with hoping to find a diamond in the rough in the past. Remember the norwegian weight lifter? We finally get one and bam, holdout city. I just don't get it. We paid Schobel and Kelsay like sailors drunk on shore leave trying to secure the last two prostitutes left in port. Peters is the guy they decide to make an example of? We will know soon enough if this is going to end or be a season long issue.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 No, I am just trying to explain what I see as happening, from both sides, meaning the Bills perspective, and the Peters/Parker perspective. I have been very consistent on all of it. (BTW, I never said talks would begin when he comes in, I don't believe they will. Not meaningful talks, until next year) The confusion comes from perhaps you thinking that because I have been saying that the Bills won't negotiate with Parker, that I believe they are wrong, and I'm not saying that at all. I am on the Bills side, completely, on the contract. I think the Bills are doing the right thing. And I think that Parker and Peters have been just seeing how far they can take it, see if the Bills crack, see if injuries force the Bills hand, see if terrible play and getting their QB killed makes the team change their mind, and laying the groundwork for next years holdout and real negotiation. None of that stuff happened (except laying the groundwork). The Bills didn't cave, and now I think he will show up soon and play. But that doesn't mean that I believe the Bills have any intention whatsoever of paying Peters what he is asking for right now. And that is why there is an impasse and a holdout. The Bills not negotiating is why he is not in camp, not the other way around. I don't think it has anything to do at all with the fact he isn't in camp. Because if he was, they still would have the exact same position: He is not going to get paid anything more in 2008, and he is not going to get what he wants, right now, in 2009 either (meaning 10+ mil). That is why he is holding out, IMO. He wants it now, or he wants 10+ mil a year, and they are not willing to give him either of that now. They may very well be willing to give it to him after this season. The Bills, IMO, don't want to give it to him now for several very good reasons: he already renegotiated, they have him for 3-5 years anyway, they already spent 100 mil on the OL last year, and they want to extend Evans first (not because he is in camp but because he is voiding his last year and will be a FA next year if they don't). Then I said the reason I believe this, or know this, is because if they WERE willing to do it, willing to pay him now, even for 2009, it would be done already. So it's very reasonable to assume they are not willing. Very nicely argued, Kelly. It is reasonable to assume the Bills are not willing, but it is also reasonable to assume that such unwillingness is not categorical, or that it is hardened by a corresponding unwillingness on the other side. That is my complaint with much of the discussion on this board, which wants to claim one side or the other is being especially intransigent. I do not think, pace Mickey, that the Bills are especially dumb or evil or wrong, nor do I believe that Peters/Parker have done anything they do not have a right to do The very nature of a stalemate is that both sides have good reasons for what they do.
GG Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Wow, over 100 posts and no one has surmised that perhaps Walker's injury has turned the players' opinion against Peters and made the FO dig in their heels a bit more. Of course injuries are part of the game, but don't tell me that there isn't grumbling inside the organization that now they need to try a patchwork on the line, there's a greater chance of someone getting hurt. But, but, but, "GG," you say, "Isn't that Peters' & Parker's grand plan - to show how indispensable Peters is?" Sure, if his job was flipping burgers. But when there are 10 other guys on O that rely on him, or if I'm the guy who spent the day in the hospital writhing in pain, somehow the sympathy for Peters' contract demands go out the window. He's not the only one with an ego in that locker room. Especially the guy who has the checkbook. With each passing day, P&P are whittling any goodwill that Peters has, and he better perform like he's the next coming of Orlando Pace.
BillsWatch Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 So how long do the boos/jibes last from Bills fans at the stadium if/when Jason suits up? Depends on what side of field he plays for. I think next time he is uniform on field he will not even be playing. Oh yeah, Eugene Parker can blow me. Boy you have low standards!
eball Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Wow, over 100 posts and no one has surmised that perhaps Walker's injury has turned the players' opinion against Peters and made the FO dig in their heels a bit more. Of course injuries are part of the game, but don't tell me that there isn't grumbling inside the organization that now they need to try a patchwork on the line, there's a greater chance of someone getting hurt. I raised the point in the game thread Sunday night, and was immediately chastised by Bill for not being a fan.
The Senator Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 I raised the point in the game thread Sunday night, and was immediately chastised by Bill for not being a fan. Were you called a fanboy?
Dan Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 ... The one point I really like about this article is how it pointed out that at the time the contract he signed wasa good deal. The Bills took a chance as they had no idea if he even would become a good right tackle. But they paid him the $$ then anyway. This point is what makes me lose respect for Peters the most. The Bills went out on a limb and gave the guy a roster spot, they then went out on a bigger limb and gave him a nice new deal when he really didn't completely deserve it yet - all on the promise that he would develop into a good offensive lineman. Then, as soon as he does become pretty good.... the Bills ask him to play one more year on the promise that they'll pay him then. And what does he do.... say F you and walk out on the team. So as long as the Bills are giving to Jason he wants to be a Bill, but as soon as the team asks him to give a little something; he says screw you? Sorry, but sometimes its a 2 way street.
The Senator Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Coming soon, to a theater near you... From Pro Bowler to Pinboy The Sad Saga of Jason Peters
cody Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Ralph wants to leave a legacy when he goes. He is just may be more interested in teaching this group of younger owners and agents how to run a professional sports league as a business than he is in winning a super bowl. Ralph has always been more interested in the 'business' than a super bowl. He got lucky when he hired Polian. Aside from the AFL years and the team Polian built, the Bills have been mediocre. Ralph's legacy will be a team that wins almost as many games as it loses, but can turn a profit in a small market. Maybe the Bills should turn the seats in sections 132-135 around so we can watch Ralph and Russ teach the next generation how to run an NFL franchise.
The Senator Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Maybe the Bills should turn the seats in sections 132-135 around so we can watch Ralph and Russ teach the next generation how to run an NFL franchise. Or, those who don't agree with Ralph can simply "vote with their feet". Plenty of fans in those sections will have their eyes glued to the field watching the Bills march to the playoffs this season. GO BILLSSS!!!! 19 and 0 baby!!!!
Bill from NYC Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Plenty of fans in those sections prefer to watch the Bills march to the playoffs this season. A Left Tackle is one of, if not the most important positions on a football team. As Bills Fans, we haven't been doing too much marching for the last 10 years now have we? Who will lead the march? Brandon? Does he know what a Left Tackle is?
The Senator Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 A Left Tackle is one of, if not the most important positions on a football team. As Bills Fans, we haven't been doing too much marching for the last 10 years now have we? Who will lead the march? Brandon? Does he know what a Left Tackle is? But didn't we have that pro bowler/left tackle last season? What of it? And what good is he now, groin all torn and 50 pounds overweight? And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. Matthew 8:26 Have faith, Bill.
KOKBILLS Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Wow, over 100 posts and no one has surmised that perhaps Walker's injury has turned the players' opinion against Peters and made the FO dig in their heels a bit more. Of course injuries are part of the game, but don't tell me that there isn't grumbling inside the organization that now they need to try a patchwork on the line, there's a greater chance of someone getting hurt. But, but, but, "GG," you say, "Isn't that Peters' & Parker's grand plan - to show how indispensable Peters is?" Sure, if his job was flipping burgers. But when there are 10 other guys on O that rely on him, or if I'm the guy who spent the day in the hospital writhing in pain, somehow the sympathy for Peters' contract demands go out the window. He's not the only one with an ego in that locker room. Especially the guy who has the checkbook. With each passing day, P&P are whittling any goodwill that Peters has, and he better perform like he's the next coming of Orlando Pace. I think You hit the nail directly on the head here GG...I thought the exact same thing after reading the article ("Peters holdout lacks a cheering section")...And it makes sense...Players seem to be all for another Player getting what they can get...to a point...And it's pretty obvious that point has been passed in the Bills Locker Room...I think the Walker injury was the breaking point (no pun intended)...Suddenly a good portion of the Bills Roster was forced to imagine going into the Season without their 2 Starting OT's...And I figure that has quite a few Team Leaders on edge right about now...This is a decent Team with a ton of potential...But it's also pretty obvious the Bills are going to need each and every good Player they have, including JP, to reach that potential...There is a VERY good chance Peters is losing any support He had from His Teammates at this point...It's getting down to crunch time and every single Player in the Organization knows they are a better Team with JP than without Him...And that fact may very well be rubbing a collective nerve right about now...
cody Posted August 27, 2008 Posted August 27, 2008 Have faith, This will be 10 years without making the playoffs. Usually, in August, I am convinced the Bills have made the right moves and are going to end the drought. Peters’ absence has replaced that confidence with trepidation. I think the Bills need to start this year with wins. If we are 0-2 on September 15, I do not think the Bills will make the playoffs, with or without Peters. If they miss the playoffs, then it’s likely back to re-building. I’ll admit it. I am loosing my faith. I am glad that you and others still have it.
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