I'd like your opinion

[Lori]

Pretty shocked on this end, even on NFL.com when the game ended old stories were piled up above the "Bills spoil home opener" story. My uncle is in the newspaper business and said that sports writers are becoming too numerous and too biased, therefore causing as you said huge layoffs in editorial positions and moreover just bland AP approaches giving details, but no in depth studies of the game or thoughts.

 

Any column or press coverage the Bills can get raises my spirits and I'm pretty sure everyone's on this board. If you ever need someone to make a cheap blog, I'm your man

Sports writers too numerous? Not very many places hiring these days. Layoffs in editorial positions? I suspect you mean the people actually writing the copy, not the editors. You're getting the AP feed because there isn't anyone left to do a sidebar.

[DC Tom]

I really have nothing to add here that hasn't already been said (if I did, I'd repeat the observation about judging coverage from the Monday morning articles after a Sunday night preseason game). Just wanted to thank you for stopping by and starting an enlightening and informative thread.

[KnightRider]

Whoever told them that was the way to go doesn't know the job. You don't expand your market by limiting content, you do the exact opposite, unless your market won't expand further. It's like being happy getting a nickel-->Insider, when you could get a dollar-->WebMd.

 

I remember 10 years ago telling them in a survey that I wasn't going to pay for additional content.

[Tim Anderson's Lunch Pail]

Tim,

 

I am really curious for an honest answer. I should preface it by saying I was a large fan of yours covering the Sabres, but was disappointed when you left for the Dolphins (I understand it was a positive career move going from covering the NHL to the NFL).

 

But I have noticed in reading your blog that you consistently push the idea of the Bills moving. I don't feel like you have any belief the Bills will remain in Buffalo. And I guess that's fine, it's a personal opinion you've developed. I don't think you've been fair - I feel like other AFC East fans reading the blog would get the impression that it's hopeless - but that is my opinion.

 

My question is, are you thinking in the back of your mind that the Bills moving to Toronto is something that will help you professionally? I don't think you would admit it, but I get the impression based on your blogs that it might be something you'd prefer. I'm sure you have some allegiances here to Buffalo, but I am just telling you how I have perceived some of the blogs.

[nobody]

As others have said; I look for my Bills News right here at TBD. We all know that the newspaper industry is in a bad state these days.

 

As for posters comments; the vast majority of people who make comments at national websites tend to do so just to think they are important. Where you find more meaningful comments tend to be at sites like this where the people are there because they care about the subject.

[Rubes]

Examples: if there is a new offensive set or package, then those of us who know the game discuss it in detail, if there is an injury we have 10 physicians telling us what it means.

 

Damn, there's nine other docs on here? Crap, I'd better get me a new byline.

[OCinBuffalo]

Damn, there's nine other docs on here? Crap, I'd better get me a new byline.

Figure of speech... but there have been some thread where you guys come out in full force. Cripes, we had a lawyer contest last week, and that was fun.

[Lori]

Thank you Lori, for proving my earlier point. I guarantee we would never know that, especially not in the detail you have laid out. Just one more example of the "big team" that is TSW. Still not sure how ESPN's online presence competes with this kind of post, or the other stuff people routinely do here.

 

I don't claim to be a media expert, but I am re: Internet business models. I don't see how ESPN isn't trying to move everything they have into content(as they seem to be, based on what you posted), the $$$ is there all day. Insider is a stupid, flailing attempt, and has already been eclipsed by sites like this one, Football Outsiders, etc. Traffic is king, followed by targeted marketing campaigns. If they did a simple login with some basic demographics, they could triple their ad revenue by targeting ads and tailoring campaigns. Perhaps they thought that's what they were getting with Insider? Whoever told them that was the way to go doesn't know the job. You don't expand your market by limiting content, you do the exact opposite, unless your market won't expand further. It's like being happy getting a nickel-->Insider, when you could get a dollar-->WebMd.

 

In all cases, content = traffic. And posting nonsense content just kills you/puts you in ad contract hell. So yeah, based on what I have seen from them, they better invest in some content people. Perhaps our new friend Tim here is an example of that effort.

For all the cumulative knowledge among the TSW collective, as far as I know, there is only one person here with credentialed access to NFL players, agents, and management (and the ESPN brand name to back him up) -- the guy who started this thread. The rest of us may be expert in law, finance, whatever ... but he's an expert in covering professional sports teams. And on a deeply personal level, realizing what it's taking for me to do the same at the small-town preps level, I know that job isn't nearly as easy as Oscar Madison or Ray Barone made it look on TV. (They were both columnists, not beat writers. There's probably a good reason for that.)

 

We can discuss/analyze/embellish whatever info he comes up with, but without Graham and people like him to report the stories, this board would be a much quieter place. Seriously -- look at the threads on the front page of the Wall right now, then add up how many of them begin with a link to a story.

 

And that goes back to his original point, I think. Nothing wrong with Mark Gaughan's gamer, but would Allen or Sal have seen something he didn't? I'm guessing Chuck was at the first Bills-Colts game in Indy, back in 1984. Would he have compared the gameday atmospheres of the two stadiums, places most of us have never been?

 

I still believe this is just a one-game aberration, not a worrisome trend, but the fact remains: There were other stories to be written. (Yes, even in a meaningless preseason game.) Too bad there wasn't anyone else there to write them.

[Rubes]

Figure of speech... but there have been some thread where you guys come out in full force. Cripes, we had a lawyer contest last week, and that was fun.

 

Ah, I must have missed that one. Of course, the only way a contest like that would really be fun is if it was to see which one of them could get all of the others to jump off a cliff with him.

[robkmil]

Hello, everybody. Tim Graham from ESPN.com here. I hope you don't view this as self promotion by posting a link to one of my blogs, but the comment section has totally floored me and I'd like your opinion.

 

When I covered the Sabres I became a member of the SabresFans message boards and got quite familiar with the general displeasure diehards have when it comes to local media coverage of the Bills and Sabres. And I don't disagree in general (although I did find the Buffalo News bashing sometimes unfair because it's the only outlet that spends money to cover every game home and road).

 

So I was troubled that when I made my usual rounds of newspaper sites for my daily AFC East roundup, the WNY papers had a grand total of one story from Indianapolis on the game. It was a comprehensive story by Mark Gaughan, but as somebody who follows NFL coverage at dozens upon dozens of newspaper sites, one story was shocking to me. This is, after all, the NFL. And coverage from local media plays a role in how the league views a market.

 

I also have to say that there were zero blogs on the game as of 11 a.m. this morning. The Rochester D&C used an Associated Press report, which remains the lead story on the D&C site as I write this early Tuesday.

 

I must point out this is not a reflection of the reporters, who are disgusted at the constant layoffs and belt-tightening, particularly with travel. They want to be at the games and reporting the news for their readers. They take immense pride in their jobs. It's more a testament to the sad state of the newspaper industry and mismangement. The Buffalo News just offered 108 buyouts. The Palm Beach Post, where I most recently worked before joining ESPN.com, cut 135 of 299 editorial jobs a couple weeks ago.

 

The way I view it, the reader is getting screwed.

 

So I made a comment on my AFC East roundup today that it was disconcerting to see such a lack of coverage on the most important preseason game of the year (and the scariest injury of preseason).

 

And the response pretty much was to go screw myself.

 

Please tell me I haven't totally misread Buffalo after spending eight years there. You really do want more coverage, right?

 

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast/0-2-133....html?post=true

 

Thanks for posting here and being concerned about how the Bills are covered locally. However, any mention of Toronto is a B word slap to Bills fans. The one thing we don't want to hear is how they are better than us. Being that you covered the bills for a short while you should know that we are a proud bunch and we are proud of where we come from.

[OCinBuffalo]

For all the cumulative knowledge among the TSW collective, as far as I know, there is only one person here with credentialed access to NFL players, agents, and management (and the ESPN brand name to back him up) -- the guy who started this thread. The rest of us may be expert in law, finance, whatever ... but he's an expert in covering professional sports teams. And on a deeply personal level, realizing what it's taking for me to do the same at the small-town preps level, I know that job isn't nearly as easy as Oscar Madison or Ray Barone made it look on TV. (They were both columnists, not beat writers. There's probably a good reason for that.)

 

We can discuss/analyze/embellish whatever info he comes up with, but without Graham and people like him to report the stories, this board would be a much quieter place. Seriously -- look at the threads on the front page of the Wall right now, then add up how many of them begin with a link to a story.

 

And that goes back to his original point, I think. Nothing wrong with Mark Gaughan's gamer, but would Allen or Sal have seen something he didn't? I'm guessing Chuck was at the first Bills-Colts game in Indy, back in 1984. Would he have compared the gameday atmospheres of the two stadiums, places most of us have never been?

 

I still believe this is just a one-game aberration, not a worrisome trend, but the fact remains: There were other stories to be written. (Yes, even in a meaningless preseason game.) Too bad there wasn't anyone else there to write them.

You are right about the news we get. But I think we can both agree that analysis is sorely lacking out there, unless perhaps you like KC Joyner's struggling?

 

There was an interesting HBO Sports special a few months back regarding all of this. One segment in particular focused on bloggers vs. journalists. The journalist made the point that blogging was killing the profession of writing, because anybody can do it. He also said that it would lower the standards of good writing. The journalist then publicly abused the blogger they had on, and with good reason. His blog was ridiculous, but, after a while you got the sense that he wanted the J-school guy to come at him. Why? Because it's still all about the traffic, and now he gets a new stream to his site. I came away from it thinking what I did before I saw it, bloggers tend to be wise-asses and know a little about the game, journalists tend to be serious and know much more about the game, but both have a place somewhere on the internet. I'm just not certain where, and I don't think many others are either. The discussion didn't resolve how quality sports writers make the transition to the reality that is the internet.

 

The point everyone missed is the blogger wins by showing up. He got on HBO, sitting on the same stage with the journalist, getting abused but still getting equal status. Does he belong there? Perhaps not, but the fact that he was there says all we need to know. The journalist can yell all he wants, but somebody paid to know what the blogger had to say, however silly. People are supposed to want to know what journalists have to say, but somehow bloggers are gaining that status as well. Why? Possibly because Bloggers are in charge of their own business, and if they don't respond to the market, it will punish them immediately? The same cannot be said about journalists, who can only be fired by their bosses, not us. People don't like it when somebody gets a free pass on sucking, because their boss has an agenda--->NY Times, and why their stock has gone into the toilet. Lame example for sure, but not too far off the mark in terms of the public's perception of the media right now.

[Kelly the Dog]

There was an interesting HBO Sports special a few months back regarding all of this. One segment in particular focused on bloggers vs. journalists. The journalist made the point that blogging was killing the profession of writing, because anybody can do it. He also said that it would lower the standards of good writing. The journalist then publicly abused the blogger they had on, and with good reason. His blog was ridiculous, but, after a while you got the sense that he wanted the J-school guy to come at him. Why? Because it's still all about the traffic, and now he gets a new stream to his site. I came away from it thinking what I did before I saw it, bloggers tend to be wise-asses and know a little about the game, journalists tend to be serious and know much more about the game, but both have a place somewhere on the internet. I'm just not certain where, and I don't think many others are either.

 

The point everyone missed is the blogger wins by showing up. He got on HBO, sitting on the same stage with the journalist, getting abused but still getting equal status. Does he belong there? Perhaps not, but the fact that he was there says all we need to know. The journalist can yell all he wants, but somebody paid to know what the blogger had to say, however silly. People are supposed to want to know what journalists have to say, but somehow bloggers are gaining that status as well. Why? Possibly because Bloggers are in charge of their own business, and if they don't respond to the market, it will punish them immediately? The same cannot be said about journalists, who can only be fired by their bosses, not us. People don't like it when somebody gets a free pass on sucking, because their boss has an agenda--->NY Times, and why their stock has gone into the toilet.

The main problem with that segment and argument, of course, was that Bissinger came across as the whiny, unprofessional, adolescent. Not the blogger.

 

Journalists and their employers just have to accept the new paradigm, and try to find a way to do what they do much better, which is pretty obvious, within that new paradigm. And not complain or become bitter because they can no longer be the big man on the block. It's no different than serious newswriters losing popularity to more photogenic or personable or controversial writers who become talk show hosts or cable/network news pundits. IMO, it's new, and it's better, because it's got both the new and the old.

[OCinBuffalo]

The main problem with that segment and argument, of course, was that Bissinger came across as the whiny, unprofessional, adolescent. Not the blogger.

 

Journalists and their employers just have to accept the new paradigm, and try to find a way to do what they do much better, which is pretty obvious, within that new paradigm. And not complain or become bitter because they can no longer be the big man on the block. It's no different than serious newswriters losing popularity to more photogenic or personable or controversial writers who become talk show hosts or cable/network news pundits. IMO, it's new, and it's better, because it's got both the new and the old.

Cool, now I get to drop the other .5 of my original post, and this way I don't get crap for being too long. Edit: you are right about the messenger, but his message: bad writing, salacious BS, no editor, etc. I saw as likely correct. However, as I said, the market punishes the weak, so who knows, perhaps bloggers will eventually have to include all of those things, bloggers will combine their efforts, and we will have a newspaper all over again. Stranger things have happened.

 

It's not as simple as the NY Times fiasco parade, but, that's generally what I see happening. It's also interesting to me that no one takes a look at the recent quality of journalism for answers in all this--->CBS News and the NY Times certainly aren't helping. Without quality, why should I concern myself with whether newsrooms have 20 or 200 people in them? Certainly the legions of people at both those organizations haven't prevented the massive failures they have exhibited lately, and we're talking the front page here. The fact is that bloggers are the ones who did the real journalism to uncover the facts about all of the faulty stories produced by the "journalists" at these organizations. Why should we feel bad for a profession/business model that can't live by its own standards, yet purports to be the "protector of the people" and claims to force everyone else to live up to theirs? What happened to the professional sports writers with the Duke lacrosse case, did they get crowded out by Nancy Grace?

 

If I was a journalist, I'd want to get ahead of this trend, start my own site, and provide in depth content to whoever wanted to buy it, similar to what Scouts Inc. or Fanation did. Every other profession has gone through this already, now it's journalism's turn.

 

I dunno, but something like this is where this is going, and nobody knows better than the journalists themselves how to deal with it. If blogging is where things are headed, why don't the best journalists simply become the best bloggers and charge other websites for their content? It shouldn't be hard. After all, if we accept their schooling, training and writing ability as absolute, it should be relatively easy for them to rise to the top.

[The Tomcat]

I will echo the response that I get my Bills news right here at twobillsdrive.com.

 

For the most part its like having a collection of perspectives from ALL the sports cities in America as well as abroad.

 

Collectively, we here at TBD don't miss much. To gage our interest in the Bills from a meaningless (by EVERYONES account whether from print, tv, radio, local or national) road game is a mistake.

 

They need to come to a Bills game and EXPERIENCE it. Compared to other games I've attended on the road, our interest is second to none.

 

Thanks for asking and GO BILLS!!!

[34-78-83]

Actually the game was in Indy, so it was NFL Network and their contract with the NFL that screwed 50% of the regional fans by defining Channel 7 in Buffalo as the entire local market.

 

Bingo!

[Beerball]

Hello, everybody. Tim Graham from ESPN.com here. I hope you don't view this as self promotion by posting a link to one of my blogs, but the comment section has totally floored me and I'd like your opinion.

You really do want more coverage, right?

 

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast/0-2-133....html?post=true

There was a thread in the middle of training camp about this. The Bills had a day off and the next day the D&C had nothing. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. During training camp they can't find someone/something to write about? So, I'm not surprised that there was little after a 'meaningful' preseason game.

 

Could it be that we 'out of towners' don't matter because we aren't buying papers?

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

To get back to Tim's original question, this isn't just a Buffalo problem. Remember how Hartford was going to be the Patriots*' new home? Can you imagine how many season-ticket holders live there? Well, from the looks of their Web site, the Courant isn't even staffing the team any more. It's all about UConn and preps, and picking up Pats* stuff off the wire. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution -- once one of the best sports sections in the country, with Van McKenzie running the show and guys like Chris Mortensen kicking ass on their beats -- just gutted the sports department. Steve Wyche was the only full-timer on the Falcons, and he ***BREAKING NEWS*** reportedly just bailed out to go to the NFL Network. Will the last guy out of the newsroom please turn off the lights?

 

And if sports journalism ever becomes the sole provenance of broadcast media and team-supplied information, fans everywhere will be poorer for it.

 

Late add: LongLiveRalph, great post.

 

 

A Bakersfield, CA paper is going to dump its AP feed in two year's time. There will only be local coverage.

[Beerball]

Tim,

 

I was very surprised and disappointed when I went to TBD earlier today expecting to find an update on L. Walker's injury. Nothing. I had to hunt through the Bills official site to find any information at all.

And, while it might not be as important as Walker, not a single solitary written word to be found about JPs thumb injury.

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

There was a thread in the middle of training camp about this. The Bills had a day off and the next day the D&C had nothing. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. During training camp they can't find someone/something to write about? So, I'm not surprised that there was little after a 'meaningful' preseason game.

 

Could it be that we 'out of towners' don't matter because we aren't buying papers?

 

 

Only if the D&C were to budget for an off-day of training camp story.

[Lori]

There was a thread in the middle of training camp about this. The Bills had a day off and the next day the D&C had nothing. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. During training camp they can't find someone/something to write about? So, I'm not surprised that there was little after a 'meaningful' preseason game.

In his blog (linked under resources on the TBD home page), Sal mentioned sneaking in his last couple of vacation days during camp. That won't be an option after this weekend, and it's a long grind between now and January. I wonder if Allen Wilson was doing the same? (He's back, on today's BillBoard ...)

 

Could it be that we 'out of towners' don't matter because we aren't buying papers?

Far as I know, both the News and D&C post 100 percent of their print edition on their Web sites. (The mind boggles at the thought of giving all that away for free, but I digress.) The locals weren't getting any more coverage than you were, unless you count WKBW-TV's brutal postgame show.

 

If'n you want that, I can probably burn you a DVD ...

 

A Bakersfield, CA paper is going to dump its AP feed in two year's time. There will only be local coverage.

Spokane wants to do it without waiting. Don't blame them, if AP is going to start charging extra for 'premium' services ... in other words, everything that isn't breaking news. And although AP is the 800-pound gorilla, there are other wire services out there.

 

[/threadjack, before this turns into an APSE conference]