Lucas Oil Stadium - More NFL Reality for "poor" Buffalo

[merlin]

Indy Dave, maybe you can refute or corroborate this. I've spent considerable time in Indianapolis. My sense is that it will always be a basketball city. The moment that the Colts suffer any type of lapse in their successful run (likely the day after Manning retires), they will find it impossible to fill that stadium, and, in all likelihood, will be moved to another city.

 

Winning, of course, sells seats anywhere. But the long-term committment to that team by its fans pales in comparison to Pacers/ IU Hoops support.

 

I've lived in Indianapolis since 1978. I think your perception of it being a "basketball state" was probably correct until recent years. It's still crazy about high school basketball, and the IU and Purdue college basketball programs have a lot of support (we'll see what happens at IU now that Kelvin Sampson was fired amid recruiting scandals, and the NCAA may impose more sanctions on top of the self-imposed ones IU is already under). But the Pacers NBA team has had a real falling off in recent years. The incident with the "brawl" in Detroit a few years ago started it, and there have been so many other off-court incidents with other players (fights, guns, DUI, drugs, "bad associates", etc), that they didn't even sell out their home play-off games a couple years ago (and failed to make the playoffs this past season for the first time in about 10 years). That coupled with Colts' amazing and consistent success, and the great "community image" the team has, starting with Manning and Dungy, has really left professional basketball as an "after thought" in this state, and to some extent, college basketball as well. There was lots of angst over the money spent for the new stadium, but when it came down to it, keeping the Colts was seen as a priority. If the Pacers were to face the same sort of public referendum today, I think they'd be headed to Seattle!

 

The Colts also have an owner in Jim Irsay who seems as truly committed to keeping the team here as Ralph does there in Buffalo ... but Jim is considerably younger. Irsay may be trying to "live down" his father's image, but he had many opportunities to either move the team to a larger market, or at least use that possibility as a "threat" to get the city/state to give him the new stadium, but by all public accounts, he never did that.

 

 

GO BILLS!

[JasoninMT]

A couple thoughts...

 

Indianapolis Indiana and the surrounding area, are not part of the top 10 declining areas... So, calling Indy Small Market is an overstatement, to say the least... I bet they are much closer to the top half of the average NFL market.

 

I don't hear any grumbling in Green Bay about needing a "New" Lambeau to compete in the NFL... That facility is ancient...

 

While Winning does in fact change peoples mindset... A valid point was made by one of the commentators last night - Indy is only as good as Peyton Manning... They said, Buffalo is their future - and mentioned the fall of Buffalo after Jim Kelly was gone. We can argue all we want about whose departure marked the end of the era... but it was around the time Kelly retired (and a bit earlier when the gang was pretty much all gone). So, what will the Colts look like sans Manning... it'll be interesting.

[Indy Dave]

Indy Dave, maybe you can refute or corroborate this. I've spent considerable time in Indianapolis. My sense is that it will always be a basketball city. The moment that the Colts suffer any type of lapse in their successful run (likely the day after Manning retires), they will find it impossible to fill that stadium, and, in all likelihood, will be moved to another city.

 

Winning, of course, sells seats anywhere. But the long-term committment to that team by its fans pales in comparison to Pacers/ IU Hoops support.

 

You are on the money, JR. I moved here in 2001 and Manning and Harrison were here already. Granted, many other key components were not, and thus the Colts were just an OK team. It was easy to get tickets. In fact, the first game I attended was Colts-49ers...the infamous Jim Mora/PLAYOFFS? postgame breakdown. Meanwhile, the Pacers were very competitive, and most games (if not all) were sold out. At the same time, Indiana U. was in the 2002 Final Four and enthusiasm was very high, despite the Bob Knight firing fresh in everyone's minds.

 

Then came the brawl in Detroit, followed by numerous off-court incidents involving the Pacers. With that, came a lot of bad press and ultimately a less competitive team. At the same time, the Colts hit their stride, and were arguably the second-best team in the NFL (behind you know who) for a few years. Then the Colts finally cleared that hurdle and won the Super Bowl. Now they have a new stadium, sell outs for every game and a long waiting list for season tickets. And the Pacers were last in the NBA in attendance this past season.

 

I agree that once the Colts fall off, it will be hard to fill the stadium. It will be blackout city for Colts fans in Indy. And if/when the Pacers and IU basketball turn it back around, people around here will go back to their true love, which is basketball. It should be noted that high school basketball around here has been phenominal in recent years, and attendance and enthusiasm reflect that. Greg Oden, Mike Conley, Courtney Lee, Josh McRoberts, Eric Gordon and so on all played at local high schools.

 

This city is Colts crazy right now but it's only because they're winning. They're good fans (and friendly and pretty knowledgeable), but nothing compared to the fans from cities mentioned elsewhere in this thread when it comes to loyalty. And I think we will see that in a few years when they get off this cycle of greatness they are currently riding.

[Carmel Corn]

Indy Dave, maybe you can refute or corroborate this. I've spent considerable time in Indianapolis. My sense is that it will always be a basketball city. The moment that the Colts suffer any type of lapse in their successful run (likely the day after Manning retires), they will find it impossible to fill that stadium, and, in all likelihood, will be moved to another city.

 

Winning, of course, sells seats anywhere. But the long-term committment to that team by its fans pales in comparison to Pacers/ IU Hoops support.

I don't think either team is going anywhere for a long time, but I completely agree with your winning statement.

 

I've lived here nearly 20 years and feel that over time Indy has made some progress in moving away from being just a basketball town. The Pacers are actually lagging in attendance, due primarily to lousy teams and pubic disdain for several of the players who act more like criminals than professional athletes.

 

That being said, there is no doubt it is still a strong collegiate sports town....having the NCAA headquartered here helps to maintain that amateur sports focus. As far as the stadium itself, no doubt it has that new car smell appeal....but if you get a chance to see it with you own eyes, it really is spectacular!

 

Having lived in both places, I still believe that it is hard to match how much the Bills are part of the fabric of the WNY community. As much as Indy has going for it, it will never reach the same degree of following or spirit as the Bills & Buffalo. The best way I can put it is that I've never stopped being a Bills fan, even 20 years later. I like the Colts, but I LOVE the Bills.

[agilen]

Here's the part of your one sentence statement about winning and selling seats that I came up with the idea you thought the Bills would get a new stadium: "...and be able to sell out the boxes of a new stadium." Sorry I extrapolated into fantasy. Just in case you misread my last post, the bottom line is that all the winning the Kelly-led Bills did sans Super Bowls in the 10 years leading up to the 1998 end of the original Rich Stadium lease was worth NOTHING. It did nothing to help our case for a brand new stadium, and it did nothing to help sell out the new suites and premium seats available after the Ralph was re-built. In fact, even though Jimbo was gone, and most of his teamates were at the end of their careers, that '98 team was pretty good. The defense was terrific and Flutie was coming off his one magic year of Pro Bowl play. So no, winning did not sell out all the expensive seats available back in 1998.

 

I think the difference is the NFL is far more popular and marketable in 2008 than it was in 1998. Most of the stadiums built in the late 90s were in the ~$200 million range...stadiums being built today are pushing $1 billion. I don't care how rich of a city we are talking about, 10 years ago a billion-dollar stadium in the NFL would have been unthinkable. Now, they know fans will cough up big $$ just to be seen at the game, and corporate interests use tickets as a sales tool. So no, I don't think winning builds a new stadium, I think marketing and popularity does.

[Ned Flanders]

I don't hear any grumbling in Green Bay about needing a "New" Lambeau to compete in the NFL... That facility is ancient...

Ummm...maybe because it was completely refurbished just a few seasons ago?

 

Lambeau

[Indy Dave]

As much as Indy has going for it, it will never reach the same degree of following or spirit as the Bills & Buffalo. The best way I can put it is that I've never stopped being a Bills fan, even 20 years later. I like the Colts, but I LOVE the Bills.

 

Agree 100 percent.

[JDG]

Before getting all huffy, its worth considering that according to the US Census Bureau, the Indianpolis Urbanized Area is 36% larger than the Buffalo Urbanized Area.

 

The Indianapolis Meto Area is also the headquarters for three companies on the Fortune 500 - that is three more than Buffalo, and includes Wellpoint at #33 overall, Eli Lilly at #133, and Cummins at #206.

 

Not all small markets are made the same.

 

Even if you toss in Rochester the combined population only just matches Indianapolis and Ft. Wayne - and obviously, its a lot easier to go to a game the closer you live. And in terms of corporations, while Western New York does have 3 on the Fortune 500, but two (Corning and Constellation Brands) are in the 400-500 range, and Eastman Kodak is only at #238.

 

Buffalo isn't on the verge of losing the Bills because of a lack of fervor for the Bills. Rather it is because of decades of political decisions that have consistently pushed the area further into economic decline.

 

JDG

[dave mcbride]

Indy Dave, maybe you can refute or corroborate this. I've spent considerable time in Indianapolis. My sense is that it will always be a basketball city. The moment that the Colts suffer any type of lapse in their successful run (likely the day after Manning retires), they will find it impossible to fill that stadium, and, in all likelihood, will be moved to another city.

 

Winning, of course, sells seats anywhere. But the long-term committment to that team by its fans pales in comparison to Pacers/ IU Hoops support.

It's always wise to remember that the most famous college football team in the nation by far is based in the Hoosier state. Contrary to Hoosier hoops mythology, it's pretty fertile territory for football.

[JDG]

I don't hear any grumbling in Green Bay about needing a "New" Lambeau to compete in the NFL... That facility is ancient...

 

Beyond the fact that Lambeau was recently rennovated into a year-round tourist detination, the other thing the Packers did decades ago was to start playing half their games in Milwaukee. As such, Milwaukee is wholly part of "Packer Nation" (admittedly it was an easier sell with Green Bay being part of the same State.). Its really the Milwaukee market that drives the Packers - and Milwaukee is a good 33% bigger than Buffalo - and with a good stack of corporations in the Fortune 500 to boot (Eight(!) in Milwaukee, and two others in Wisconsin (Madison & Oshkosh)).

 

JDG

[bladiebla]

What's my point with this post? It's to stop complaining about prices and just enjoy the Bills while we still have them in Buffalo. And if you think its unfair to lose games to Toronto, then shut up and step up and sell out every single premium seat and luxury box in the less expensive re-furbished RWS first!

 

Hear, hear, just support your team, spend your money now, save yourself from being heartbroken later.

 

*. I can't describe how it felt when we lost the Amsterdam Admirals and the NFL Europe to boot. A look on youtube with all the tribute vids should tell you something; you wouldn't even wish that towards the cheatalots.

[KD in CA]

Buffalo isn't on the verge of losing the Bills because of a lack of fervor for the Bills. Rather it is because of decades of political decisions that have consistently pushed the area further into economic decline.

 

Bullseye.

[VJ91]

I don't hear any grumbling in Green Bay about needing a "New" Lambeau to compete in the NFL... That facility is ancient...

 

Green Bay fans aren't grumbling because the shareholders and taxpayers voted to recently dump about $500 Million into that ancient facility. It was rebuilt into a bigger unshared revenue palace then the Ralph was rebuilt into, (gee, do you think because they spent about $350 Million more then was spent on the Ralph??). Plus, they also tossed in a Packers Hall of Fame building and other fan-friendly ammenities too. Yes, even tiny Green Bay Wisconsin seems to have more money for their NFL team then Buffalo.

[VJ91]

I think the difference is the NFL is far more popular and marketable in 2008 than it was in 1998. Most of the stadiums built in the late 90s were in the ~$200 million range...stadiums being built today are pushing $1 billion. I don't care how rich of a city we are talking about, 10 years ago a billion-dollar stadium in the NFL would have been unthinkable. Now, they know fans will cough up big $$ just to be seen at the game, and corporate interests use tickets as a sales tool. So no, I don't think winning builds a new stadium, I think marketing and popularity does.

 

Great point. But even back then when as you say, stadiums were being built brand new in the 200 Million range, our counties, state and owner still came up 50 million short. Oh well, Jim Kelly keeps telling us he has a group of billionaires who are ready to beat any bids to keep the Bills here. Let's hope he's right.

[bluenews]

What Lucas Oil Stadium means to the citizens of Indianapolis and generally the entire state...

1. The Colts are guaranteed to stay in Indy.

2. The city/stadium hosts the Super Bowl, which is a tremendous economic boom.

3. The city/stadium will never go more than five years without hosting either the NCAA convention, the Men's Final Four, or the Women's Final Four...more tremendous economic impact.

4. The old RCA Dome, which is connected to the city's convention center, gets converted to additional convention space, which draws larger conventions.

 

Yeah, we paid the bill, and I understand the argument against it, but IMHO this is a good investment for the city and its citizens.

 

I went to the game last night. It truly is an amazing venue.

 

And while I hope the Colts continue to have success as long as it doesn't hurt Buffalo's chances at success, it sure was nice to witness the Bills getting a W in the first-ever NFL game at the Luke.

 

But what does it do for the water front....

[Fan in San Diego]

What I found strange while I was watching the teams run out was that the crowd really didn't seem into it, even though they were at the first game in a new stadium.

 

One of the horrible announcers (I think it was Deion) even commented that it was "about to get real loud", and then it didn't when the Colts ran out. It was a packed house at a new stadium, and it didn't really seem like there was much excitement in the air.

 

I think that alot of it had to do with the fact that it was still a preseason game, but I expected more for the opening of a new stadium. It will be interesting to see what type of turnout the Colts have once their dynasty is in a rebuilding phase.

 

It was quiet there because we were beating the snot out of them.

[zonabb]

Before getting all huffy, its worth considering that according to the US Census Bureau, the Indianpolis Urbanized Area is 36% larger than the Buffalo Urbanized Area.

 

The Indianapolis Meto Area is also the headquarters for three companies on the Fortune 500 - that is three more than Buffalo, and includes Wellpoint at #33 overall, Eli Lilly at #133, and Cummins at #206.

 

Not all small markets are made the same.

 

Even if you toss in Rochester the combined population only just matches Indianapolis and Ft. Wayne - and obviously, its a lot easier to go to a game the closer you live. And in terms of corporations, while Western New York does have 3 on the Fortune 500, but two (Corning and Constellation Brands) are in the 400-500 range, and Eastman Kodak is only at #238.

 

Buffalo isn't on the verge of losing the Bills because of a lack of fervor for the Bills. Rather it is because of decades of political decisions that have consistently pushed the area further into economic decline.

 

JDG

 

 

THANK YOU! Someone finally beat me to my usually reply using actual data, not emotion. As an urban planner and demographics junky, you;re on top of your game! Even more, if you look at a lot of the larger MSAs (metropolitan statistical areas) are larger in size than Buffalos because the unfortunate way the US Census Bureau determines the size of the MSA is how connected the outlying areas are to the central city eocnomically, using commuting data. BUffalo's MSA is on Erie and Niagara County because the surrounding counties are mainly agricultural, meaning that not enough people commute into Buffalo-Niagara Falls from Genesee, Allegany, Cattaraugus and Chatauqua counties, so they're not included in th MSA. The Rochester MSA is seven counties I believe and there are counties not included in either Rochester or Buffalo-Niagara (Orleans and Genesee I believe). Anyway, you take all over the Rochester MSA, plus BUffalo-Niagara, and the missing adjacent counties and the total population is more than 2 million.

 

Now, that's a decent number. However, the main problem in today's NFL for small market teams is corporate dollars through seats and sponsorships and WNY lacks that big time. We can sell out the stadium, no problem. But we can't sell the corporate suites and we can't raise the sponsorship revenue of many teams.

 

And lastly, Indy is a giant region that has consolidated under the "regionalism" mantra, cutting taxes and making a more efficient, cost-effective, place to live, but most importantly a place to work.

 

WNY has some of the, if not the highest electric and water rates in the country and the same goes for taxes. So it's really Buffalo's inability to lure businesses here that will ultimately kill the Bills. Thank the Wicks, Taylor and Triborough laws and your friendly local public union employees and state politicians.

 

And the Green Bay argument is null and void. They're not running the same ownership model as everyone else in the league. Profit isn't the main concern, believe it or not. They're a public good and a public asset. The Bills and the 30 other teams are private goods (using public funds, how f'd is that) with profit being their main motive. So when the Bills are sold, a bidder needs to maximise his return, not provide a public good. Asking or expecting a buyer of the Bills to lose money to "do it for the community" is short-sighted and laughable. In Green Bay, the issue will never arise because the intent there was to preserve the team for the community, hence public ownership. And that irks the Jones', Snyders and Krafts of the NFL to no end.

[ricojes]

Check out today's News article about how the 9 counties surrounding Indianapolis and the state of Indiana stepped up and presented the Colts with their new money making palace.

Here ya go...

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

That's exactly it. Yeah, it's preseason. But the difference b/w a Bills and Colts game is marked. Bills' games are intense, loud, raucous, not always family friendly. Colts games strike me as a bunch of fair-weather fans showing up for a nice family outing, hoping the team wins, but not really caring either way. I think fans in some cities view NFL games as life (e.g., Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, GB), and others view them as entertainment (e.g., Indianpolis).

 

 

Indy and St. Louis seem to be the same.....football-wussified midwest dome cities. They all look cute in their jerseys and turtlenecks....pass the Grey Poupon.

 

[Lv-Bills]

You are on the money, JR. I moved here in 2001 and Manning and Harrison were here already. Granted, many other key components were not, and thus the Colts were just an OK team. It was easy to get tickets. In fact, the first game I attended was Colts-49ers...the infamous Jim Mora/PLAYOFFS? postgame breakdown. Meanwhile, the Pacers were very competitive, and most games (if not all) were sold out. At the same time, Indiana U. was in the 2002 Final Four and enthusiasm was very high, despite the Bob Knight firing fresh in everyone's minds.

 

Then came the brawl in Detroit, followed by numerous off-court incidents involving the Pacers. With that, came a lot of bad press and ultimately a less competitive team. At the same time, the Colts hit their stride, and were arguably the second-best team in the NFL (behind you know who) for a few years. Then the Colts finally cleared that hurdle and won the Super Bowl. Now they have a new stadium, sell outs for every game and a long waiting list for season tickets. And the Pacers were last in the NBA in attendance this past season.

 

I agree that once the Colts fall off, it will be hard to fill the stadium. It will be blackout city for Colts fans in Indy. And if/when the Pacers and IU basketball turn it back around, people around here will go back to their true love, which is basketball. It should be noted that high school basketball around here has been phenominal in recent years, and attendance and enthusiasm reflect that. Greg Oden, Mike Conley, Courtney Lee, Josh McRoberts, Eric Gordon and so on all played at local high schools.

 

This city is Colts crazy right now but it's only because they're winning. They're good fans (and friendly and pretty knowledgeable), but nothing compared to the fans from cities mentioned elsewhere in this thread when it comes to loyalty. And I think we will see that in a few years when they get off this cycle of greatness they are currently riding.

I went to college at Ball State in the early to mid 90's. The Colts NEVER sold out games. In fact, it was great, because the Colts used to play in the AFC East, and the Bills easily had about 10,000 fans at every game in Indy. Most of the upper deck seemed like all Bills fans. The fans in Indy were terrible....even up to the point when the Colts and Jim Harbaugh almost beat the Steelers in the AFC CHampionship game.

 

Then, of course, Peyton changed all of that. They had their tradition started with Manning and company. I think they have created a base there, but when he's gone, and the Colts start to struggle again, which they will, they will NOT sell that place out at those prices. No way in hell.

 

Indy isn't really a basketball state over football. That's kind of overblown. Indiana is a great amatuer and college state period. In high school, their basketball, football, baseball and almost every other high school sports playoffs are well attended.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how the Colts do after Manning. My guess is that Manning will retire, Polian will follow suit, and then we'll see how much interest Colts fans have in paying $200 per seat. I would bet the house it will be blackout city again, and the Bengals will be on TV every week just like before.

 

Most of the state in the north likes the Bears anyway. Most of the state in the southeast likes Cincy. They'll struggle.