If Peters doesn't show

[ndirish1978]

There is nothing to communicate. 29 days ago and counting:

 

Parker: Jason won't play without a new contract this year. How about it?

 

Brandon: No.

 

Parker: Call me if you change your mind.

 

Parker isn't returning calls from the media. I am reasonably confident he would return any call from Brandon. The reason their is no communication is, simply, because there is nothing to communicate. Not yet anyway.

 

 

You're on this guy's jock so hard it's nauseating. At this point I don't give a damn about if he thinks he is owed more money or if the FO is being a hard@ss- This is a NEW offense and his dumb @ass wasn't in camp to learn it (thought I'm sure you will claim he had a playbook magically elivered and has been astrally projecting himself to practice and taking mental reps). You think talent will overcome that, look at Pacman Jones in Dallas, granted he was rusty, but his biggest adjustment was learning a new D. Peters missing camp makes the team worse, even if he eventually plays. So now the team is worse off because he wouldnt report-screw him.

[ndirish1978]

Unfortunatly, I negotiate contracts all of the time.

 

Rule #1, do not screw up the deal.

 

In my view, the Bills and Peters have equal bargianing power. The Bills need Peters, Peters needs the Bills.

 

You are right, the Bills give up leverage by being the 1st to bend.

However, the Bills do have something to loose. If Peters doesn't show up and play, they do not get the benefit of his services (which in '06 they estimated would be worth about 3 mil per year). If the Bills loose the 1st two games this season, we can forget about the playoffs. Playoff games mean revenue for the team. And job security for the people calling the shots.

 

If one side takes to hard of a stance, the other side starts to dig in. If I tell someone "I will give you nothing", I know I will be in for a fight. I think the Bills are overplaying thier hand.

Eugine Parker has a reputation for letting contract negotiations get personal and holding his client out. When negotiating, do not discount the personalities of the individuals involved.

 

If that's the case please remind me never to associate with any business you work for. Equal bargaining power? Are you kidding me? The team owns his contract. He plays football for a living. He cannot play for another team. He either plays and gets paid or he doesn't play and gets paid nothing. The Bills have lose more in capitulating to the demands of a player who is breaking team policy than in losing quality on the line.

[Andre Speed]

hey now, we're all forgetting one thing.

 

jason peters WAS injured. (remember? the end of last season) ..and no one has seen him since!

 

i don't need a projector to see what that could mean. the bills do not know how the rehab has gone. they have no idea what they'll be getting. all they DO know, is that this guy is not helping the team at all right now, and is not honoring the contract that already has been renegotiated once. to me, that shows a physical unknown, and a mental negative.

 

anyone saying we should shell out big bux considering all that should start a collection. don't stop by my house !

 

S.

[cody]

If that's the case please remind me never to associate with any business you work for. Equal bargaining power? Are you kidding me? The team owns his contract. He plays football for a living. He cannot play for another team. He either plays and gets paid or he doesn't play and gets paid nothing. The Bills have lose more in capitulating to the demands of a player who is breaking team policy than in losing quality on the line.

 

When you decide who has the power, I want you to think of the answers to these questions.

1. How many companies would be willing to pay Jason Peters more than he is currently earning with the Bills?

2. How many NFL tackles can play as well as Jason Peters?

2a. Of those tackles, how many would be willing to come to Buffalo for less than the amount of money Peters wants?

2b. Of those tackles, how many would be willing to come to Buffalo to play under Peters' current contract?

 

You are absolutly right, the team owns his contract. That is all they own. Peters does not have to show up. Without Peters, what's that contract worth?

 

No one can say the Bills hold all of the cards. The stradegy that the Bills are taking has never been sucessful. No team has ever won a holdout.

 

How many times have players returned to teams after a holdout and not received a contract soon after?

How many times have NFL teams forced a player to sit for more than one season before trading him?

[apuszczalowski]

When you decide who has the power, I want you to think of the answers to these questions.

1. How many companies would be willing to pay Jason Peters more than he is currently earning with the Bills?

2. How many NFL tackles can play as well as Jason Peters?

2a. Of those tackles, how many would be willing to come to Buffalo for less than the amount of money Peters wants?

2b. Of those tackles, how many would be willing to come to Buffalo to play under Peters' current contract?

 

You are absolutly right, the team owns his contract. That is all they own. Peters does not have to show up. Without Peters, what's that contract worth?

 

No one can say the Bills hold all of the cards. The stradegy that the Bills are taking has never been sucessful. No team has ever won a holdout.

 

How many times have players returned to teams after a holdout and not received a contract soon after?

How many times have NFL teams forced a player to sit for more than one season before trading him?

To Debate your points

 

#1 I'm sure alot of other teams would pay him more, and no where have the Bills said they wouldn't discuss paying him more, but its a moot point because he can't just up and go sign with those teams, or even have contact with them since Buffalo is the only place he can play for another 3 years unless they agree to trade him away. So his choices are continue holding out and losing money, and still owe the Bills 3 years of service, or come back and play, and call Buffalos bluff about only negotiating if he reports, or he could demand a trade, but the Bills don't have to do anything and can turn down that request and let him continue sitting out.

 

#2 Theres no denying that he is a good player and that there are currently very few like him in the league right now, and none of them would come to Buffalo to play for what he is signed for, but that still means nothing with 3 years remaining on his deal.

 

Those points would be more relevent if this was his final season and he could be a FA at the end of the year, and the Bills wanted to lock him up before he could test FA. But he is a long way away from FA under his current deal, so those points can really only be used when debating what the numbers of his contract should be, or as excuses for why he is holding out.

 

And yes, Peters doesn't have to show up, unless he wants to be paid. The Bills hold his contract, and that contract is the only way Peters will be able to have employement in the NFL for the next 3 years. So sure, he can sit and wait, but every day he does it chips into his saving without any new income coming in. If he wants to play, he has to show up, the Bills might not hold all the cards, but the hold about 95% of the cards right now.

 

We all I guess have forgotten that the Bills, even under Levy do not like to bend for their players in negotiations if the players refuse to bend for the team. Remember Last year with Walker after he was brought in from Philly for TKO? He refuse to show up until the Bills re-worked his deal, and they said they wanted him to show up and report to training camp first to take a look at him. He refused to report until he was given a new deal. Everyone here was screaming for them to give him what he wants because they Bills needed help at DT, and even though they did need better DT's, they still wouldn't crack and give into him.

[Kelly the Dog]

No one can say the Bills hold all of the cards. The stradegy that the Bills are taking has never been sucessful. No team has ever won a holdout.

I personally don't think there is any question that the Bills "will win" this holdout. Peters will come in and play this year under his current deal. He has to. He is not going to ruin his career. In this respect, the Bills have all the cards. Eventually they will have to pay, but they will surely get their way this year (unless they decide to break the bank for him now, which I doubt).

 

Peters is not going to sit this year out. I highly doubt he misses a game barring injury. It's possible that he sits out the season in the same way that it's possible when alone in a room, Rosie O'Donnell reaches for the rice cake instead of the double chocolate sundae and cheesecake.

[1billsfan]

How many days of training camp or mandatory OTAs did Schobel miss?

 

My impressions have been that the Bills let it be known that they were very much willing to renegotiate Schobel's contract, where as with Peters they let it be known that they are expecting him to play this season under the current contract terms regardless of his participation. They may have said that they'll talk with him and his agent however these talks would not be resulting in any renegotiation of his current contract for this season. If my impressions are wrong then Peters is doing himself a MAJOR disservice, if they are right then he has a MAJOR beef as far as double standards are concerned.

 

If the Bills are worried about money then they should perhaps cut Chris Kelsay and his over-inflated salary and let the rookie DE take over his spot. Since Schobel got his money, Peters (if fully healthy of course) deserves a renegotiated contract. If the Bills are worried about the injury factor then put in some "games started" incentives into the new contract. The Bills are being stubborn to the point that they now appear willing to jeopardize Edwards' health and Jauron's feeble head coaching record to prove a point over OTA participation. The term "cutting one's nose to spite their face" comes to mind. To me, they lost all bargaining power when they redid Schobel's contract last year. I've always been of the opinion that there ARE different rules for players depending on their importance to the organization and their goal of winning a championship. Some players are merely replaceable cogs in the wheel, while others are the irreplaceable frame of the car. The best of the best in this league do NOT apply the same rules to the bottom 50 guys that they would to the the top three superstars on the team. It would be very interesting to see what fans here would think if Edwards had an off the charts year and then decided to hold out for a renegotiated contract. My thinking is that everyone would eventually want the Bills to pay up and let the good times roll. Not take a hard stance because the bottom players have to play out their contracts. There are generally only a few superstar players (if any at all) on a team and there's always a way to cut the fat which in this case would be cutting someone like Kelsay. I'm all for keeping him, but if they were to go that route I wouldn't give it a second thought.

[SuperKillerRobots]

I think the best way for a football team to deal with a holdout is to prevent it. The way they prevented Schobel from holding out.

 

Can anyone come up with an example of a team that ever 'won' in a holdout dispute? - by winning I mean the player caves, comes in and plays a season with that team under his current contract, and is still on the team the next year.

 

Didn't Orlando Pace pull something like this awhile ago? n He held out for almost all of training camp and then played the regular season. After a year or two of that I think they signed him long term.

[cody]

Didn't Orlando Pace pull something like this awhile ago? n He held out for almost all of training camp and then played the regular season. After a year or two of that I think they signed him long term.

 

Orlando Pace was a franchised tagged free agent and played that way for two seasons.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...TC-DT9705204233

http://football.about.com/b/2003/08/26/ram...nds-holdout.htm

 

Then the Rams signed him to a long term deal.

 

You seem to be the 1st one who has found a team that won a holdout

 

This does give me hope that Peters may play for the Bills under his current contract and then sign a long term deal.

[Billadelphia]

hey now, we're all forgetting one thing.

 

jason peters WAS injured. (remember? the end of last season) ..and no one has seen him since!

 

i don't need a projector to see what that could mean. the bills do not know how the rehab has gone. they have no idea what they'll be getting. all they DO know, is that this guy is not helping the team at all right now, and is not honoring the contract that already has been renegotiated once. to me, that shows a physical unknown, and a mental negative.

 

anyone saying we should shell out big bux considering all that should start a collection. don't stop by my house !

 

S.

 

Yeah!!! Welcome to the board, too!

[SuperKillerRobots]

I think this whole discussion is very complicated for all the reasons posters are giving on both sides. It is absolutely correct that win by avoiding holdouts, which takes a degree of anticipation on the part of the FO and a degree of compromise on the part of the player. Also, I agree with the idea of showing up to work when you have a contract that says you have to.

 

Peters has progressed at an almost unbelievable rate when you consider he was a TE five years ago and went undrafted. This growth of talent/ability has to be close to unprecedented - at least as far as I can remember (but I'm not that old).

 

It is obviously a no-brainer that Peters in underpaid and should get a substancial (at least double his current cap figure) amount of money in his next contract.

 

I also firmly believe that this whole holdout is due in part to Parker being a new agent for Peters and not having made any money off him, since he is still on his old deal. I believe that this is Parker's motivation to make such a stand on this holdout. Now regardless of what Parker's motivation is, the Bills need Peters to a certain extent to make good on their potential this year and since he is underpaid, they should just suck it up, make it seem like they didn't cave for the media and fans, and get him in to practice. Right? Maybe not...

 

I have two concerns about him at this point:

 

1. Peters was sidely recognized as one of the best LTs in the game last year, his first full one at the position. He was mainly touted for his physical ability, as we who have wwatched him for a while have known since he first came here. He was never known for his technique. In fact I can remember opposing defensive coaches (maybe Rex Ryan?) saying taht even though he only had one pass blocking move, he could stop anyone because he was so athletic. Does that sound like the characteristic of a guy who doesn't need another training camp under his belt? It sounds like he might have been susceptable to confusing rush schemes, had defensive coordinators had more tape on him.

2. Peters was doing great last year and seemed poised to take the next step. The surgery seemed like no big deal. I, not being a doctor, be that there is a 97% chance that he is fully recovered from it. The problem is that for $70, maybe $80, maybe $90 million long term I'd like more than a hand shake or gentleman's word. I want to see him on the field, practicing, and being the physical force he always was. To tie this in with point # 1, if Peters did lose a step from his surgery and is no longer the physical force he was, but is still good enough to play ball, is he elite? Do all the comments about how great he is fly out the window?

 

This would be my primary concern: You have a beast of a man who is great because of his physical traits, wants a lot of money because of this, and we haven't seen him push off his feet and come out of a stance. I would bet it's real hard to quasi-crouch in those stances with a hernia problem.

[cody]

We all I guess have forgotten that the Bills, even under Levy do not like to bend for their players in negotiations if the players refuse to bend for the team. Remember Last year with Walker after he was brought in from Philly for TKO? He refuse to show up until the Bills re-worked his deal, and they said they wanted him to show up and report to training camp first to take a look at him. He refused to report until he was given a new deal. Everyone here was screaming for them to give him what he wants because they Bills needed help at DT, and even though they did need better DT's, they still wouldn't crack and give into him.

 

Walker got traded to the Bears and then got a new contract. He got what he wanted. I'm sure Peters would be happy if we sent him to a team that is willing to pay him.

 

On the otherhand, we really dodged the bullet with Walker. If Peters is injured and the Bills trade him, it might work out.

[apuszczalowski]

My point with walker was that the Bills are willing to stand their ground against players holding out demanding more until they report to camp, no matter how bad the fans, and maybe even the team really want the player there to improve the team.

[nucci]

Walker got traded to the Bears and then got a new contract. He got what he wanted. I'm sure Peters would be happy if we sent him to a team that is willing to pay him.

 

On the otherhand, we really dodged the bullet with Walker. If Peters is injured and the Bills trade him, it might work out.

Walker got his deal but was cut after 1 year and did not see a lot of money. Talent-wise there is no comparison.

[cody]

My point with walker was that the Bills are willing to stand their ground against players holding out demanding more until they report to camp, no matter how bad the fans, and maybe even the team really want the player there to improve the team.

 

You are right, and the Walker situation worked out great. The bears paid him, he did not perform to the contract, and Marv looked realy smart.

 

Do you want to the Bills to be the team that stands their ground, even if they want the player there to improve the team.

Or, do you want the Bills to be like everybody else and cave in to holdouts. Parker did this with the Patriots, and they caved. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/8755586/

 

I am sick of not making the playoffs. I am sick of seeing the Bills overpay borderline starters. I am sick of the Bills not keeping their top players.

 

When Kerney blows around Walker and sacks Edwards on 3rd down in the red zone on september 7, we can all cheer and say "way to stand your ground!!!!!"

[BADOLBILZ]

It would set the same dangerous precedent as caving in to his demands.

 

Dangerous precedent? That's what I was saying in the past few offseasons when the Bills were busy trading players like Moulds, McGahee and Spikes who said they wanted out and letting their star cornerback walk in free agency without enforcing their right to tag and trade him. The Bills are better off NOW without those guys, but the precedent that was set was that the Bills have not shown the fortitude to stand up to vets who want a change of scenery.

 

Things seem to be changing with Brandon. To the shock of about everyone here, the Bills did not trade or release JP Losman in the offseason. Admit it, you all thought he was automatically going to be granted his wish. The funny thing is that so many people here have felt that the team not standing up to disgruntled players or enforcing their right to use tags etc., would make Buffalo a more attractive destination for free agents. Wrong. It just made them look like they weren't up for the battle and could be manipulated by players and agents.

[Bmwolf21]

My point Exactly.

I see what you're getting at, that we have no idea whether he is healthy and if that hernia has healed. I'd rather look at guys like Dumont and Briere when they were with the Sabres - they both had sports hernias, missed half a season after surgery (~3 months) and came back with little to no ill effects -- than look at a guy who saw a ankle injury blossom into a decade-long odyssey.

 

WRT Grant - he was just a disaster with Orlando. His bad ankle pretty much destroyed his lower body while with the Magic -- the ankle is believed to have caused problems with his knee, his ankle, his groin, even got a staph infection after one of his ankle surgeries.

[Bmwolf21]

Dangerous precedent? That's what I was saying in the past few offseasons when the Bills were busy trading players like Moulds, McGahee and Spikes who said they wanted out and letting their star cornerback walk in free agency without enforcing their right to tag and trade him. The Bills are better off NOW without those guys, but the precedent that was set was that the Bills have not shown the fortitude to stand up to vets who want a change of scenery.

 

Things seem to be changing with Brandon. To the shock of about everyone here, the Bills did not trade or release JP Losman in the offseason. Admit it, you all thought he was automatically going to be granted his wish. The funny thing is that so many people here have felt that the team not standing up to disgruntled players or enforcing their right to use tags etc., would make Buffalo a more attractive destination for free agents. Wrong. It just made them look like they weren't up for the battle and could be manipulated by players and agents.

I'll admit - it's late and I'm tired, so I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. All I can say is that I believe that Peters has a contract that has already been redone once, and if he wants it to be redone again he is going about it the wrong way. When I heard he was holding out, I thought "you've got to be kidding me." That's pretty much how I feel now. I'm glad that Brandon isn't tripping over himself to worship at the altar of Jason Peters.

 

Anyway my post was in response to apus' scenario of what would happen if the Bills decided to go after the signing bonus money -- that the NFLPA would somehow "force" the Bills to "don something" with him (trade him.)

[Mickey]

Schobel had already proven himself as a consistent ProBowl player over MULTIPLE seasons. not just one good one with an injury.

Actually, he had just made his first pro bowl, finally. Peters made it a lot earlier in his career than Schobel did and as much as I like Schobel, no one has ever considered him to be dominant at his position. Peters is already being talked about as one of the best in the game. Peters is younger and is going to get even better. It is likely all downhill from here for Schobel, he isn't getting any younger. The situations are not exactly a like but for every factor you can cite for Schobel, there are just as many in favor of Peters. The treatment they have received is vastly different, their situations are not. It doesn't make sense. All I can think is that Brandon thinks Marv made a mistake with Schobel and doesn't want to repeat it with Peters.

[Mickey]

I see what you're getting at, that we have no idea whether he is healthy and if that hernia has healed. I'd rather look at guys like Dumont and Briere when they were with the Sabres - they both had sports hernias, missed half a season after surgery (~3 months) and came back with little to no ill effects -- than look at a guy who saw a ankle injury blossom into a decade-long odyssey.

 

WRT Grant - he was just a disaster with Orlando. His bad ankle pretty much destroyed his lower body while with the Magic -- the ankle is believed to have caused problems with his knee, his ankle, his groin, even got a staph infection after one of his ankle surgeries.

The "we have no idea how the surgery went" meme has been disproved. Brandon saw Peters when he came in to get checked out by the team after the surgery. Not even Brandon has tossed that issue in the pot during his misleading press conferences. You know, the public whining he did while supposed punk and whiner Parker and Peters had enough respect to keep their yaps shut.