finknottle Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I'm not disputing that uninsured illegals are a huge burden, only his assertion that half of the uninsured are illegals. This article lists the percent at 15% (Although I'm sure it's greater now but not half). Part of the problem is that there very few national-level surveys about immigration status. The article makes the assumption that there are 12 million illegal immigrants. Pew Research says the uninsured rate among illegal immigranst ia 59% - just over 7 million. 7 million out of 47 million is 15%. But 12 million is at the low end of the estimate. If you take a high-end figure of 25 million and keep the other assumptions the same, you get about 15 million. This is almost one in three. The numbers in play here are the number of illegal immigrants (12-25 million), their rate of uninsurance (I think it might be higher than .59), and the number of unsured (the census says 45 million). One (overly) simplified way to look at the impact: suppose there are 25 million uninsured illegal immigrants out of 50 million uninsured. The uninsured are paid for by increasing the premiums of the insured. If there are 250 million people paying for the 50 million, then their rates are 20% higher than they would be otherwise. But of the 20%, 10% goes to uninsured Americans (not so bad) and 10% goes to illegal immigrants (a source of the anger). But the greatest danger is the spiral effect - premiums are 20% higher than they should be. As more people drop off the roles, that rate increases further, causing even *more* people to forgo it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Play fast and loose with the truth. Really I could give two craps if it's many, most, some, whatever... people are losing their homes and struggling to keep them. To debate the use of the word "most" is a waste of time. I say that people are losing their homes because it's true, not because of where my vote may lie. So what? That's capitalism. And I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of the people "losing" their homes deserve to lose them because they bit off way more than they could chew in the first place. It was a dirty business and those who got into it deserve exactly what they get. It has nothing to do with who is in the White House, nor will it be fixed by Congress or the next person to "win" the Executive. No government on the planet can save people from themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I assumed that by saying that being taxed is the same as enslavement he is endorsing the elimation of taxation. These taxes should be eliminated: -Income taxes -Social security -Estate taxes Those are an enslavement in life and sadly in death. What if I don't pay them? I go to jail. Taxes like sales, or a future VAT I'm fine with as long as it does not support the over-size gov't the liberals gave us (and by liberals I include the GOP which may ruffle feathers). I'm more of a state right guy, although I do believe fundamentally that a Federal gov't should exist, just not at this size or almost complete inefficiency. The 1st 2 are based on my income. If my income does not match what they think it should be, or what they think I'm screwing them I go to jail. Sales tax or a VAT is more like, "you want to buy this? Fine, pay us." That doesn't require a bookkeeper, and there is no threat of imprisonment. The estate tax is double taxation on your family. It's probably one of the most un-Constitutional beasts that has ever existed. A man works hard, pays his share, so they tax his family for his hard work. When families worked as a business, and still work as a family business the problem is magnified because the sons and daughter helped the business, and their labors are allocated in their parents names, which eventually gets wiped out by the gov't because their machine is too big. Over 7 million people have revoked citizenship to this country and have left for this reason alone. Successful people who would be a benefit to our economy are leaving, and this country will not exist as liberals think it will in 30 years. If they think small gov't fans like me are wrong, they will forced to accept I'm right in absolute chaos in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Over 7 million people have revoked citizenship to this country and have left for this reason alone. Successful people who would be a benefit to our economy are leaving, and this country will not exist as liberals think it will in 30 years. If they think small gov't fans like me are wrong, they will forced to accept I'm right in absolute chaos in the near future. Where do they go? Because i don't know many countries that are taxing people LESS than the USA... or to use your vocabulary that are less liberal than the USA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Where do they go?Because i don't know many countries that are taxing people LESS than the USA... or to use your vocabulary that are less liberal than the USA... Costa Rica, Argentina, Uruguay, Belize, Monte Carlo and places like that. The majority of countries have less taxation than the U.S. I don't know about France, but all of Africa, Australia, South America, and Asia has less taxation with many not having an income tax but a VAT (Uruguay just added an income tax), and none of the countries I listed have death taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Costa Rica, Argentina, Uruguay, Belize, Monte Carlo and places like that. The majority of countries have less taxation than the U.S. I don't know about France, but all of Africa, Australia, South America, and Asia has less taxation with many not having an income tax but a VAT (Uruguay just added an income tax), and none of the countries I listed have death taxes. Have you check the quality of life and the state of the economies of Argentina and Uruguay? Is there really any americans moving there?!!! You really want to move in a banana republic of Africa? Soudan anybody? Ivory Coast? or a good old dictatorship like Gabon! What about Congo, Rwanda or Kenya? Safe places to have a family! In socialist Bolivia, Venezuela or Brazil? In communist China? Have you check the freedoms in Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia? South Korea? I don't think many americans 'd move there... Taxes in Japan and in ALL Europe are way higher than in the US... MonteCarlo?!!! Yeah right!! There's millions of americans moving there!!!! You're a pop star? a biliionaire? So what do we have left? South Africa... a dangerous country with his youth leaving in mass for Europe and the US... Australia, that has just elected a social democrat... and New Zealand. 7 millions Americans moving to NZ.... that's gonna flood the streets of Auckland!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 My uncle lives in Italy quite comfortably. He maintains a house in Tuscany and Phoenix. The major expenditure - healthcare - isn't an issue for him as an Italian citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 My uncle lives in Italy quite comfortably. He maintains a house in Tuscany and Phoenix. The major expenditure - healthcare - isn't an issue for him as an Italian citizen. I don't doubt it. But he sure does not live in Italy to escape taxation!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Have you check the quality of life and the state of the economies of Argentina and Uruguay? Is there really any americans moving there?!!! You really want to move in a banana republic of Africa? Soudan anybody? Ivory Coast? or a good old dictatorship like Gabon! What about Congo, Rwanda or Kenya? Safe places to have a family! In socialist Bolivia, Venezuela or Brazil? In communist China? Have you check the freedoms in Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia? South Korea? I don't think many americans 'd move there... Taxes in Japan and in ALL Europe are way higher than in the US... MonteCarlo?!!! Yeah right!! There's millions of americans moving there!!!! You're a pop star? a biliionaire? So what do we have left? South Africa... a dangerous country with his youth leaving in mass for Europe and the US... Australia, that has just elected a social democrat... and New Zealand. 7 millions Americans moving to NZ.... that's gonna flood the streets of Auckland!! Actually there is some truth to that. Significant numbers of people have starting retiring in Central America. Waterfront property values have skyrocked there in the past ten years or so. Not exactly millions, but the problem is only going to get worse as an out of control federal gov't continues to raid the pockets of its citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Actually there is some truth to that. Significant numbers of people have starting retiring in Central America. Waterfront property values have skyrocked there in the past ten years or so. Not exactly millions, but the problem is only going to get worse as an out of control federal gov't continues to raid the pockets of its citizens. well God bless them... to bet on a stable harmless (and taxless) future in countries like Nicaragua, Belize, San Salvador or Panama, those guys have really an incredible faith!! (just like those loonies we have here in Europe buying homes to retire in Maroc or in Senegal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I don't doubt it. But he sure does not live in Italy to escape taxation!! What difference does it make - the cost of healthcare insurance plus out of pocket in the US is much MORE than he pays in Italian taxes. In other words, he actually GETS something for the taxes he pays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier in france Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 . In other words, he actually GETS something for the taxes he pays. well if so he's about the only italian thinking that! The italian state is about the most bureaucratic inefficient thing you can find in Europe! (and we are very good for stupid bureaucratic systems in Europe!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I do a fair amount of business in Italy. It is a NIGHTMARE to pass anything through the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 What difference does it make - the cost of healthcare insurance plus out of pocket in the US is much MORE than he pays in Italian taxes. In other words, he actually GETS something for the taxes he pays. I'm not familiar with Italy's health industry, so a couple questions... Can he choose his own doctor? How long does he have to wait for care? How do Italian health care professionals compare to their American counterparts? How does Italy's medical technology compare to America's? If he needs a specialist, do they ship him to the US like other countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I do a fair amount of business in Italy. It is a NIGHTMARE to pass anything through the government. I have tons of fun with EMEA, AJP and LA. Wherever there's government, you're doomed. Unfortunately there really isn't any human society that has been able to survive without some sort of government. Whether it's a tribal leader, a head villager, whatever - someone's in charge. And we got the village idiot...for 145 more days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Actually there is some truth to that. Significant numbers of people have starting retiring in Central America. Waterfront property values have skyrocked there in the past ten years or so. Not exactly millions, but the problem is only going to get worse as an out of control federal gov't continues to raid the pockets of its citizens. you're absolutely right, lots of Americans are flocking to Central America because of the property costs are still way cheaper and the low COL in general. I would worry about places like Nicaragua going back to communism or some other dictatorship. Those retirees would just get booted out and there's nothing they could do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Let's all move to Singapore. Nowhere freer on earth...until China decides that little experiment in laissez faire capitalism is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Let's all move to Singapore. Nowhere freer on earth...until China decides that little experiment in laissez faire capitalism is over. you're not talking about Singapore, you must mean Hong Kong. Singapore has more stupid laws than most high schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 you're not talking about Singapore, you must mean Hong Kong. Singapore has more stupid laws than most high schools. I was exchanging emails with a guy from SG all day--you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 And we got the village idiot...for 145 more days. At which point we get to trade him for...Jesus, or the cranky old guy telling you to get off the White House lawn. Actually, the sad thing is...either way is out-of-control federal spending and bigger deficits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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