the problem with faith and religion

[Chilly]

I have responded to multiple threads where someone feels the need to brag about how they believe there is no God. That just doesn't add up at face value. Instead of reading a philosophy book, maybe a psychology book is in order so we can identify just what conditions are really at play in this debate?

 

Do you happen to watch John Hagee's TV show?

[John Adams]

As they begin to happen...it will be moreso.

 

Call me crazy......normal just doesn't do it for me these days.

 

 

There is one thing though that I don't understand.....if God is just some Spaghetti Monster and you have to be crazy to believe, why do people get so upset in trying to disprove him? If some guy on Doat St. is holding a crackpipe and comes up to my car to tell me there is a Dolphin swimming in my backseat...I'm just going to smile, say thanks, and move on. Now if I feel threatened by that same guy, I would try to get as far away from him as possible. What I wouldn't do is START multiple conversations with him to try and convince him there is no Dolphin swimming in my car. I certainly wouldn't drive back down to Doat with a crackpipe and a rock, look for the guy, tell him to smoke it, then proceed to argue with him again.

 

I have responded to multiple threads where someone feels the need to brag about how they believe there is no God. That just doesn't add up at face value. Instead of reading a philosophy book, maybe a psychology book is in order so we can identify just what conditions are really at play in this debate?

 

I like to think there is a god. I do. I really want to, so I hold out hope.

 

But I think that people who believe in prophecy and some specific incarnation of god-as-father have a fatal flaw in their brains. That worries me. That's all. BTW, the person I love most in this world, my wife, has this flaw. So don't think I'm sort of zealot. I just play one on this board.

[SAM HARRIS]

let me get away from such a broad subject of what is god or does he exist. the better question where we can come to a logical agreement is does the CHRISTIAN GOD EXIST? this is more specific and has a myriad of claims and certainties... its either true or false, one or the other people.

[DC Tom]

As they begin to happen...it will be moreso.

 

Yeah, it'll be straightforward in retrospect...

 

 

[Dwight Drane]

I like to think there is a god. I do. I really want to, so I hold out hope.

 

But I think that people who believe in prophecy and some specific incarnation of god-as-father have a fatal flaw in their brains. That worries me. That's all. BTW, the person I love most in this world, my wife, has this flaw. So don't think I'm sort of zealot. I just play one on this board.

 

Good news is...the husband will be sanctified by the wife, and the wife by the husband. You're off the hook!

 

It is not an easy thing to give up control.....that is what makes it easy to say the whole idea is goofy. I am a control freak on certain things. I know the frustration of being forced to leave control of something you care about in the hands of someone else. It's 10x as hard to trust god, because you have to voluntarily give up "control" of your life and accept that you are not the be all and end all. Add in the fact that there is no concrete scientific proof that you are handing the control to anything real, and you have the prescription for threads like this. While it is easy for someone to label me arrogant for stating that my beliefs are certainly true for all, I can just as easily call that person arrogant for believing that THEY are the ultimate controling force on their own life. I would call believing in Jesus....arrogant modesty.

 

I felt bad that I took a swipe at you a few weeks ago. Over these boards it is tough to know a person well enough to see the thought process behind what is in reality being typed as well as someone can convey their thoughts through writing. The bottom line is that I wouldn't have taken a shot like that at you if I didn't respect you. I zapped you with a line that was meant to get you thinking, but without knowing where I am coming from it was out of line. I knew you could handle something like that though, and I am happy to see you still hold out hope.

[Taro T]

let me get away from such a broad subject of what is god or does he exist. the better question where we can come to a logical agreement is doest the CHRISTIAN GOD EXIST? this is more specific and has a myriad of claims and certainties... its either true or false, one or the other people.

I've read this thread with interest.

 

It's quite apparent that you have made up your mind that He doesn't. I'm not quite certain why you seem to need to get others to agree with your position.

 

While science and religion are mutually exclusive in their methods, there is no reason that a person cannot believe in scientific principals and God. More specifically, there is no reason a person can't be both a scientist and a Christian.

 

I've seen in this thread, the strawman set up that God is claimed to be omniscient and omnipresent in all ways that we would understand, so therefore he MUST know what is going to happen tomorrow and that freewill somehow doesn't / can't exist. I don't deny that there are some who believe this, but I expect they are vastly in the minority. While that seems to be the God that you want Christians to worship and believe in, apparently to be able to call out / knock down their faith; I doubt that you would have many / any of the Christians and other religious people in this thread even agree amongst themselves to exactly what His powers are and how they are manifested.

 

I consider myself to believe in God (I've seen too much in this world to NOT believe that God does exist) and also a scientist (well, engineer, more precisely). I don't believe the Bible's version of Adam and Eve, but I do believe God created us through some sort of evolutionary process that started w/ something similar to the Big Bang. I see no reason not to try to continue to understand our world as fully as possible, understanding how the world works helps bring us closer to understanding how God set it all up brings us closer to Him as we find out it's all a heck of a lot more complex than any of us could have imagined.

 

My full thoughts on God and science can't be summed up particularily well in a single message board post, but the Reader's Digest version is that God set it all up and lets it run its course. He can see what will happen and on occassion when things are going to get too f*cked up he will step in and make an adjustment. (The German scientists screwing up their calcs on the A-bomb for instance.) But typically he lets it all play out; I think this "freewill" stuff is kind of fun for Him. He created nature and the physical laws that we are bounded by and gets a kick out of our figuring out what they are and how we can make our lives better through an understanding of them.

 

So, I guess, to answer your question: yes, the Christian God exists. Can I prove it to you? No, I can't. That's kind of part of science and religion not overlapping currently. Maybe someday, when our science advances enough there may be an overlapping of the 2 again (but in a good way this time) as science may help us answer some of the questions that it currently can't (why are we here, what is our purpose) at least not on the "metaphysical" level which is where the religious answers are attempted. I actually expect that long before that day arrives, science itself will be treated as religion. In many ways, I already see that playing out (the Gospel of Global Warming, anyone?) and that itself isn't a good thing. And science being a religion is as scary to me as a warping of Islam in this century or a warping of Christianity several hundred years ago.

[Dwight Drane]

Do you happen to watch John Hagee's TV show?

 

I agree with some of his message, but I don't trust him as he seems to have fallen into the same trap most do when they control money and power.

 

I'd like to consider myself a realist. I'm no saint, but I try to be honest in all that I do. If you are going to drink, do it to relax and share with friends...not to give you an excuse to do somethng else. If you are going to gamble, do it within your means. If you are going to give someone a beatdown, make sure it is because they are harming someone in a helpless position...not to protect your ego.

 

It really is about the Golden Rule. In direct response to whether or not Jesus is the only way to salvation....I know plenty of good hearted people that aren't "with" Jesus. I can only hope that he leads them to him in some sort of way at one point or another. I would be quite sad to think truly good people will suffer. I guess I can hope that we are chosen to live at a certain time because god knows what path we will choose in the end. I can't claim to know what is in store after this, but I can only trust that he gives people every opportunity to know him and be with him in the end. For all I know, those 5 minutes or so that some can go without oxygen, there is a game of "Let's Make a Deal" going on behind the scenes. I can't claim to know the exact mechanisms he uses, but I can trust that he is honorable and loving.

[Steely Dan]

I've only read the first page so far but here are some thoughts:

 

I couldnt agree more its just that these beliefs people have could cause ww3 one day if we dont start to scrutinize what is truth and what isnt...

 

Exactly.

 

The apocalypse is coming in 9/2009. Dwight Drane told me so.

 

Nope 12/21/12

 

 

Faith is the reason. I simply choose to have faith in Christ's return, along with His redemption of my sin and His position as the Son of God.

 

That's ok. Just keep it to yourself or in your church.

 

 

So?

 

That, in my opinion, is one of the *best* aspects of religion. It has an ability to provide comfort. Try for a minute to imagine what it would be like to die and simply cease to exist. I'm not sure that's even fathomable. Having an answer (however correct) can make life much more enjoyable.

 

I think religion in it's *purest* sense is a good thing. However true all of the stories are, if people truly modeled their lives after Jesus, we'd live in a much better world. The problems arise when politics and extremists mix in. Hell, hypocrites that leave Sunday Mass and proceed to cut off other drivers and ignore humanity as a whole... *they* are a problem. They show up so they can tell their neighbors they were there.

 

Whatever my personal beliefs are... I can see that there are benefits. There are clearly downsides, though... can't argue that.

 

The problem is that too many people believe Jesus is God and not the son of God and therefore the old testament carries the same weight as the new testament. If that's true why did he come back and contradict a lot of the old testament? The other problem is that even if you only really go by the new testament there is A LOT of room individual interpretations.

 

 

The biggest question I have is: who created God?

 

God always is and always was. Which of course is a good way to weasel out of that question and at least scientists can say I don't know.

[Dwight Drane]

Nice to see you in here Taro.

 

I agree with just about everything you said. When you are lucky, (or unlucky) enough to see your fair share of things happen throughout a lifetime...I find it hard for someone not to turn to god.

 

One of the biggest factors in leading me to believe we are near the end, is science. I was once at a meeting where the main speaker was a futurist who preached the singularity. Brilliant guy with all sorts of data and charts and graphs. As he kept going, it hit me that the things he was showing me couldn't go on forever...and probably wouldn't go on for long. People were scared to ask questions, and many weren't paying attention or mocked him because they had no clue what he was saying. I asked the only question. "Given all of the data and graphs you have shown us, and assuming that human nature is self serving and self interests will be looked out for before the common good, couldn't you say that you just proved we are in the last days and that the Singularity would be the end of time, and the world?"

 

The guy answers with a smile..."Yes, but it's exciting to try and find a solution to that problem."

 

It's easy to say we have more science than ever before, but we've always had more science as we go along. This is the kind of science where one bad apple or one screwed up experiment can be the end, and we have hundreds of those possibilities today where only a century ago you may have been able to count the threat on your fingers.

 

I was not brought up in a religious household and I do not consider myself to be any specific denomination of Christian. I've sort of backed my way into the Bible over time through Science, Islam, Personal Events, and Global ones. The key is the message of the Gospels. Prophecy is a little out there. It is relevant though. Jesus didn't come to me and say it's the end of the world. I've just seen enough and fallen into enough in my lifetime to feel we all best get our raincoats on, because a storm is a comin'.

[Steely Dan]

BTW, I have a couple more things to add before I read the second page.

 

I have listened to the whole hour and a half talk and I can't find much, if anything, I disagree with.

 

Penn and Teller have talked about faith healers and have pointed out some things. There are three things that can happen with any disease or physical ailment. 1. It can get better. 2. It can stay the same 3. It can get worse. If you go to the healer and it gets better then they'll take the credit. If it stays the same then they say at least it hasn't gotten worse. If it gets worse then you didn't show up in time.

 

I see this as the same with a lot of religious beliefs.

[Dr. Fong]

That's ok. Just keep it to yourself or in your church.

 

 

My sentiments exactly. Certainly you should keep it out of my son's classroom.

[Taro T]

Nice to see you in here Taro.

 

I agree with just about everything you said. When you are lucky, (or unlucky) enough to see your fair share of things happen throughout a lifetime...I find it hard for someone not to turn to god.

 

One of the biggest factors in leading me to believe we are near the end, is science. I was once at a meeting where the main speaker was a futurist who preached the singularity. Brilliant guy with all sorts of data and charts and graphs. As he kept going, it hit me that the things he was showing me couldn't go on forever...and probably wouldn't go on for long. People were scared to ask questions, and many weren't paying attention or mocked him because they had no clue what he was saying. I asked the only question. "Given all of the data and graphs you have shown us, and assuming that human nature is self serving and self interests will be looked out for before the common good, couldn't you say that you just proved we are in the last days and that the Singularity would be the end of time, and the world?"

 

The guy answers with a smile..."Yes, but it's exciting to try and find a solution to that problem."

 

It's easy to say we have more science than ever before, but we've always had more science as we go along. This is the kind of science where one bad apple or one screwed up experiment can be the end, and we have hundreds of those possibilities today where only a century ago you may have been able to count the threat on your fingers.

 

I was not brought up in a religious household and I do not consider myself to be any specific denomination of Christian. I've sort of backed my way into the Bible over time through Science, Islam, Personal Events, and Global ones. The key is the message of the Gospels. Prophecy is a little out there. It is relevant though. Jesus didn't come to me and say it's the end of the world. I've just seen enough and fallen into enough in my lifetime to feel we all best get our raincoats on, because a storm is a comin'.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being prepared for a crisis (provided the preparations don't end up like a Jonestown revival ).

 

That stated, I just don't see us at the end of days at this time. Primarily because I don't see myself as being important enough to be one of the ones around when the sh*t does finally hit the fan. Throughout history, every generation (in almost every culture) has had its reason to believe a crisis of biblical proportions was imminent. So far they've all been wrong as far as the destruction being species wide, although that's been small consolation to a group that's been exterminated more or less. Eventually someone will be right, I just don't see myself as being fortunate (or more likely unfortunate) enough to be there when it does go down. (Of course, my powers of prognostication aren't exactly top notch, so it probably all goes down on Thursday. )

 

The most probable reason it all hasn't gone down yet, is He hasn't wanted it to. He's pulled us back from the brink when we've gotten too far. I expect He will do it again, I just don't know how He'll keep us around and I'm quite certain we won't realize that He helped us out again. He's had the whole show running for over 4B years, why get bored now when He's only had us around for 5-10k years? We almost definitely have the technology to wipe ourselves out, I don't think He'll let us do it, at least not now.

 

Besides, Nostradamus says it's not supposed to go down for another 2000.

[DrDawkinstein]

i truly hope the apocalypse happens in my lifetime. just as Patton Oswalt says.

 

"we'll be the VIP section of heaven. what'd you die from? cancer? whatd you die from? hit by a bus?... I WAS IN THE MOTHER!@#$ING APOCALYPSE!"

 

ok, i digress, get back to your serious conversation.

[SAM HARRIS]

I've read this thread with interest.

 

It's quite apparent that you have made up your mind that He doesn't. I'm not quite certain why you seem to need to get others to agree with your position.

 

While science and religion are mutually exclusive in their methods, there is no reason that a person cannot believe in scientific principals and God. More specifically, there is no reason a person can't be both a scientist and a Christian.

 

I've seen in this thread, the strawman set up that God is claimed to be omniscient and omnipresent in all ways that we would understand, so therefore he MUST know what is going to happen tomorrow and that freewill somehow doesn't / can't exist. I don't deny that there are some who believe this, but I expect they are vastly in the minority. While that seems to be the God that you want Christians to worship and believe in, apparently to be able to call out / knock down their faith; I doubt that you would have many / any of the Christians and other religious people in this thread even agree amongst themselves to exactly what His powers are and how they are manifested.

 

I consider myself to believe in God (I've seen too much in this world to NOT believe that God does exist) and also a scientist (well, engineer, more precisely). I don't believe the Bible's version of Adam and Eve, but I do believe God created us through some sort of evolutionary process that started w/ something similar to the Big Bang. I see no reason not to try to continue to understand our world as fully as possible, understanding how the world works helps bring us closer to understanding how God set it all up brings us closer to Him as we find out it's all a heck of a lot more complex than any of us could have imagined.

 

My full thoughts on God and science can't be summed up particularily well in a single message board post, but the Reader's Digest version is that God set it all up and lets it run its course. He can see what will happen and on occassion when things are going to get too f*cked up he will step in and make an adjustment. (The German scientists screwing up their calcs on the A-bomb for instance.) But typically he lets it all play out; I think this "freewill" stuff is kind of fun for Him. He created nature and the physical laws that we are bounded by and gets a kick out of our figuring out what they are and how we can make our lives better through an understanding of them.

 

So, I guess, to answer your question: yes, the Christian God exists. Can I prove it to you? No, I can't. That's kind of part of science and religion not overlapping currently. Maybe someday, when our science advances enough there may be an overlapping of the 2 again (but in a good way this time) as science may help us answer some of the questions that it currently can't (why are we here, what is our purpose) at least not on the "metaphysical" level which is where the religious answers are attempted. I actually expect that long before that day arrives, science itself will be treated as religion. In many ways, I already see that playing out (the Gospel of Global Warming, anyone?) and that itself isn't a good thing. And science being a religion is as scary to me as a warping of Islam in this century or a warping of Christianity several hundred years ago.

 

 

 

What do you mean science becoming a religion? elaborate, because science just isnt say for instance biology... its also common sense and being honest with yourself. now you say the christian god does exist but you cant give me any logical or scientific answer...

 

let me reverse this for a sec...

 

lets say your christian faith is just as important as your family correct? at least on the same level...

 

what if i told you that while u were at your house that your family had been killed in a car accident. obviously questions would start incompusing logic... where did this happen? how do u know? who r u? when did this happen. or my family is here what r u talking about... and so on

 

 

the point is u wouldnt accept that belief on faith, and that doesnt even include metaphysics in it. beliefs have consequences because if u did believe this claim u would act accordingly. so once again i will ask the question. you r making the claim that the christian god does exist, jesus, the ressurection, the bible being inspired by him, hell for non-believers... please explain your beliefs and then tell me why its true in a way that makes sense. like if u knew my family was hurt or something.

 

go bills!

[SAM HARRIS]

its not a question of arrogance or being close minded. its a question that everyone would ask with any other claim, except for in faith and religion, and i am not talking about faith that jason peters will come to camp, that already comes with beliefs that r TRUE....

 

Jason peters exists...

he plays for the bb

he is a LT

JP DOES WEIGH 340 AND SO ON

 

everyone is in the business of claiming truth with boundaries around it. why do u think ur truth is correct?

[Taro T]

What do you mean science becoming a religion? elaborate, because science just isnt say for instance biology... its also common sense and being honest with yourself. now you say the christian god does exist but you cant give me any logical or scientific answer...

 

let me reverse this for a sec...

 

lets say your christian faith is just as important as your family correct? at least on the same level...

 

what if i told you that while u were at your house that your family had been killed in a car accident. obviously questions would start incompusing logic... where did this happen? how do u know? who r u? when did this happen. or my family is here what r u talking about... and so on

 

 

the point is u wouldnt accept that belief on faith, and that doesnt even include metaphysics in it. beliefs have consequences because if u did believe this claim u would act accordingly. so once again i will ask the question. you r making the claim that the christian god does exist, jesus, the ressurection, the bible being inspired by him, hell for non-believers... please explain your beliefs and then tell me why its true in a way that makes sense. like if u knew my family was hurt or something.

 

go bills!

Yeah, because in the Church of Global Warming, it is all about "common sense and being honest with yourself". It's not about additional money in the apostles' pockets nor is it about additional governmental control of the masses. Nope, it's none of that. It's entirely about "honesty". Science would never be taken as a matter of "faith" nor used as an instrument by the leaders to further their own ends. I do agree with you that science SHOULD be about common sense and searching for truth / honesty, and also that it oftentimes is. But there are and have been many instances where science isn't nearly as pure as we would like it to be.

 

Back more to point, science isn't remotely advanced enough to posit whether God does or does not exist. I doubt it will be close to that point within either of our grandchildren's lifetimes. In 2008, it is still a question that must be answered via "faith".

 

As for your request for me to explain my beliefs, I've already stated that a single message board post would not come close to summing them up. There is really little reason for me to attempt to summarize it, as we both know that anything I post will display both "faith" on my part and will entail providing a summation of MY interpretation of actions and events I have witnessed and participated in. You have stated that you want it presented "in a way that makes sense", but you have exhibited a hostility to faith. I don't see how, short of an extremely long disertation, that I can even begin to do that; and, quite honestly, I truly doubt that I am remotely eloquant enough to fully explain myself on this matter even in that setting. I also have doubts regarding how open minded you'd be to attempt to understand what I attempted to say and where I was coming from. You want "proof", I don't have it for you. But I do have it for myself, for me that is enough.

 

I don't need to proselytize, I am comfortable both in my faith AND my quest for knowledge. Are you?

 

We do agree on the "go Bills" sentiment.

[SAM HARRIS]

Yeah, because in the Church of Global Warming, it is all about "common sense and being honest with yourself". It's not about additional money in the apostles' pockets nor is it about additional governmental control of the masses. Nope, it's none of that. It's entirely about "honesty". Science would never be taken as a matter of "faith" nor used as an instrument by the leaders to further their own ends. I do agree with you that science SHOULD be about common sense and searching for truth / honesty, and also that it oftentimes is. But there are and have been many instances where science isn't nearly as pure as we would like it to be.

 

Back more to point, science isn't remotely advanced enough to posit whether God does or does not exist. I doubt it will be close to that point within either of our grandchildren's lifetimes. In 2008, it is still a question that must be answered via "faith".

 

As for your request for me to explain my beliefs, I've already stated that a single message board post would not come close to summing them up. There is really little reason for me to attempt to summarize it, as we both know that anything I post will display both "faith" on my part and will entail providing a summation of MY interpretation of actions and events I have witnessed and participated in. You have stated that you want it presented "in a way that makes sense", but you have exhibited a hostility to faith. I don't see how, short of an extremely long disertation, that I can even begin to do that; and, quite honestly, I truly doubt that I am remotely eloquant enough to fully explain myself on this matter even in that setting. I also have doubts regarding how open minded you'd be to attempt to understand what I attempted to say and where I was coming from. You want "proof", I don't have it for you. But I do have it for myself, for me that is enough.

 

I don't need to proselytize, I am comfortable both in my faith AND my quest for knowledge. Are you?

 

We do agree on the "go Bills" sentiment.

 

 

yes go bills!!!

 

i think to make it simple yes i do have a interest in faith because i think u would agree its a failing argument and dangerous especially for beliefs that entail a transcendental division among human beings... it makes me different from u becuase i dont subscribe to jesus or hell or the 2nd coming... someone is right and its good that we dialogue and conversate on what is true and how we agree something is true, not just in theology but in everything agree? its cool if u cant explain your certainties in a post but it really should be simple if your god want us to know him... just doesnt make sense to me in the slightest way why god would give us a brain of reason and common sense (which science is) and then say.... nope ur going to hell becuase u didnt go against ur brain and logic...

 

i dont know man.

[SAM HARRIS]

Yeah, because in the Church of Global Warming, it is all about "common sense and being honest with yourself". It's not about additional money in the apostles' pockets nor is it about additional governmental control of the masses. Nope, it's none of that. It's entirely about "honesty". Science would never be taken as a matter of "faith" nor used as an instrument by the leaders to further their own ends. I do agree with you that science SHOULD be about common sense and searching for truth / honesty, and also that it oftentimes is. But there are and have been many instances where science isn't nearly as pure as we would like it to be.

 

Back more to point, science isn't remotely advanced enough to posit whether God does or does not exist. I doubt it will be close to that point within either of our grandchildren's lifetimes. In 2008, it is still a question that must be answered via "faith".

 

As for your request for me to explain my beliefs, I've already stated that a single message board post would not come close to summing them up. There is really little reason for me to attempt to summarize it, as we both know that anything I post will display both "faith" on my part and will entail providing a summation of MY interpretation of actions and events I have witnessed and participated in. You have stated that you want it presented "in a way that makes sense", but you have exhibited a hostility to faith. I don't see how, short of an extremely long disertation, that I can even begin to do that; and, quite honestly, I truly doubt that I am remotely eloquant enough to fully explain myself on this matter even in that setting. I also have doubts regarding how open minded you'd be to attempt to understand what I attempted to say and where I was coming from. You want "proof", I don't have it for you. But I do have it for myself, for me that is enough.

 

I don't need to proselytize, I am comfortable both in my faith AND my quest for knowledge. Are you?

 

We do agree on the "go Bills" sentiment.

 

 

 

this explains my concerns a little better

[outsidethebox]

yes go bills!!!

 

i think to make it simple yes i do have a interest in faith because i think u would agree its a failing argument and dangerous especially for beliefs that entail a transcendental division among human beings... it makes me different from u becuase i dont subscribe to jesus or hell or the 2nd coming... someone is right and its good that we dialogue and conversate on what is true and how we agree something is true, not just in theology but in everything agree? its cool if u cant explain your certainties in a post but it really should be simple if your god want us to know him... just doesnt make sense to me in the slightest way why god would give us a brain of reason and common sense (which science is) and then say.... nope ur going to hell becuase u didnt go against ur brain and logic...

 

i dont know man.

I don't know which is worse, someone beating you over your head with a Bible. Or someone who does not believe in God beating you over your head with there opinion. Can't we just agree to disagree and let it go?

 

As far as someone who posted about leaving your believes in your house or your church. what would you be called if you said the to homosexuals to "leave" it in your house. I think you would be called a bigot.

People should be free to express there beliefs without the fear of being labeled. This world is big enough for ALL to exist.

[Taro T]

yes go bills!!!

 

i think to make it simple yes i do have a interest in faith because i think u would agree its a failing argument and dangerous especially for beliefs that entail a transcendental division among human beings... it makes me different from u becuase i dont subscribe to jesus or hell or the 2nd coming... someone is right and its good that we dialogue and conversate on what is true and how we agree something is true, not just in theology but in everything agree? its cool if u cant explain your certainties in a post but it really should be simple if your god want us to know him... just doesnt make sense to me in the slightest way why god would give us a brain of reason and common sense (which science is) and then say.... nope ur going to hell becuase u didnt go against ur brain and logic...

 

i dont know man.

You would be wrong thinking that I agree that faith in God is a failing argument. You would also be wrong in thinking that I agree that the Christian religion is necessarily "dangerous". As I have stated on several occassions, science is not currently equipped to answer the question as to whether God exists. That does NOT mean that He doesn't exist, it simply means that we cannot use science to "prove" that He does or does not exist. You are looking for something that we (humanity) currently are not capable of. We are continuously expanding our capabilities. Will we ever be able to "prove" God exists? I don't know. Maybe. Whether we do or don't doesn't really bother me much one way or the other.

 

I'm not certain why you think you are going to hell for using your "brain and logic". Nor, for that matter, do I understand why you think that God doesn't want you to use your brain. Regardless, I think I am done w/ this thread.