the problem with faith and religion

[Dwight Drane]

You can't prove that God exists to somebody that doesn't want God to exist. Why do you read a novel? I can tell you what a 300 page book is all about in a scientific manner in about 90 seconds. Unless you live life and are able to emote, a novel is worthless.

 

The same goes for God. If he sits on a beach chair in the middle of Times Square, wearing sunglasses and smoking a stogie as he watches everyone, does that do him any good? Would you care as much about watching football if you already knew the outcome of every game ahead of time? Suspense, choices, experiences.....that's what it's all about.

 

The arguement against God is so weak in this day and age that it is laughable. To envoke God in anything automatically brings the offended out of the woodwork. To try and point out bible prophecy being fulfilled right in front of our eyes brings laughter and mocking. Even from most Christians. The church is weak and wickedness is off the charts. It's go time. I'm not a lifelong "biblethumper".....anyone that reads a history of my posts knows I'm no Ned Flanders. But It's Go Time. Not only is there a God, but his patience is about up, and his cigarette break about over, so now it's time for him to do his thing.

 

Watch Syria and Damascus. If that city gets pummled into the stone age soon, I wouldn't worry about where the Bills are playing in 2015. Until then, there are plenty of good hearted people that aren't convinced of God that will have a chance to find him. Pick up a bible if only for goofs. That's what I did. Then I started to have questions answered for me and feelings explained for me and couldn't believe the message was meant for me. Just the fact that we are all living now is pretty cool. No matter your current beliefs, it's like we are all at the scene of Woodstock. Some will camp out for the whole show, some will leave after a few sets, and some will drive right by yelling "F-U Hippies!" We're all given the opportunity to be here for this though....and I have a funny feeling Jesus plays a mean Star Spangled Banner as well.

[DC Tom]

You can't prove that God exists to somebody that doesn't want God to exist. Why do you read a novel? I can tell you what a 300 page book is all about in a scientific manner in about 90 seconds. Unless you live life and are able to emote, a novel is worthless.

 

The same goes for God. If he sits on a beach chair in the middle of Times Square, wearing sunglasses and smoking a stogie as he watches everyone, does that do him any good? Would you care as much about watching football if you already knew the outcome of every game ahead of time? Suspense, choices, experiences.....that's what it's all about.

 

The arguement against God is so weak in this day and age that it is laughable. To envoke God in anything automatically brings the offended out of the woodwork. To try and point out bible prophecy being fulfilled right in front of our eyes brings laughter and mocking. Even from most Christians. The church is weak and wickedness is off the charts. It's go time. I'm not a lifelong "biblethumper".....anyone that reads a history of my posts knows I'm no Ned Flanders. But It's Go Time. Not only is there a God, but his patience is about up, and his cigarette break about over, so now it's time for him to do his thing.

 

Watch Syria and Damascus. If that city gets pummled into the stone age soon, I wouldn't worry about where the Bills are playing in 2015. Until then, there are plenty of good hearted people that aren't convinced of God that will have a chance to find him. Pick up a bible if only for goofs. That's what I did. Then I started to have questions answered for me and feelings explained for me and couldn't believe the message was meant for me. Just the fact that we are all living now is pretty cool. No matter your current beliefs, it's like we are all at the scene of Woodstock. Some will camp out for the whole show, some will leave after a few sets, and some will drive right by yelling "F-U Hippies!" We're all given the opportunity to be here for this though....and I have a funny feeling Jesus plays a mean Star Spangled Banner as well.

 

You can't prove God exists, period. In fact, ironically, it's easily provable that you can't prove God exists: God, as creator of the universe, must exist outside the universe. The universe, by definition, contains the sum total of everything that is knowable. To prove God exists would make him part of the sum total of everything that is knowable, i.e. place him within the universe...which would immediately prove that he is not God. The simple act of "proving" God exists would prove that he doesn't.

 

Which is why I said earlier: religion and science conflict, and will always conflict. Science is fundamentally based on empiricalism. Religion requires an absence of empiricism. Again, nothing wrong with that, it simply is what it is.

 

Now your point about prophecies, on the other hand...that's just ridiculous. People who prophecize aren't ridiculed because they're religious, they're ridiculed beause they're loons: they've always been proven wrong, yet they always insist that THIS time things will be different. You don't see me, for example, ridiculing buckeyemike or millbank for their religious beliefs (I get along quite well with them, in fact, despite having significantly different beliefs from them). But you also don't see them believing that their belief in God gives them the ability to predict the future, either. There is a fundamental difference in their humble acceptance of God and Jesus as their savior, and your arrogant beilef that God and Jesus give you an innate, prescient superiority over the unwashed masses.

[VOR]

The arguement against God is so weak in this day and age that it is laughable. To envoke God in anything automatically brings the offended out of the woodwork. To try and point out bible prophecy being fulfilled right in front of our eyes brings laughter and mocking. Even from most Christians. The church is weak and wickedness is off the charts. It's go time. I'm not a lifelong "biblethumper".....anyone that reads a history of my posts knows I'm no Ned Flanders. But It's Go Time. Not only is there a God, but his patience is about up, and his cigarette break about over, so now it's time for him to do his thing.

Actually, the arguments for God are weak. Hence the reason one needs to "have faith."

[Dwight Drane]

Actually, the arguments for God are weak. Hence the reason one needs to "have faith."

 

True

[Cornerville]

There is a fundamental difference in their humble acceptance of God and Jesus as their savior, and your arrogant beilef that God and Jesus give you an innate, prescient superiority over the unwashed masses.

 

Could not agree more DC.

I for one accepted Jesus as my savior, and in NO way shape or form does that mean "i look down on you because I am with Christ and you are not' In fact if you read the Bible, Christians are really supposed to act just the opposite. I mean look at the people Jesus helped and associated himself with based on the Gospel, lots of different walks of life.

 

I have friends that are Jewish, Atheist, and a lot of different 'religions' and personally that is the way I like it.

[Dwight Drane]

Now your point about prophecies, on the other hand...that's just ridiculous. People who prophecize aren't ridiculed because they're religious, they're ridiculed beause they're loons: they've always been proven wrong, yet they always insist that THIS time things will be different. You don't see me, for example, ridiculing buckeyemike or millbank for their religious beliefs (I get along quite well with them, in fact, despite having significantly different beliefs from them). But you also don't see them believing that their belief in God gives them the ability to predict the future, either. There is a fundamental difference in their humble acceptance of God and Jesus as their savior, and your arrogant beilef that God and Jesus give you an innate, prescient superiority over the unwashed masses.

 

He gave you the info as well.

 

You need to see the difference between good old fashioned leg work, and prophecy. I was/am in the middle of the economic "situation". I don't care if I lose anything by telling the truth. Instead of listening to politicians or the media when it comes to war, I do my own research. Things are so far gone right now, especially for the US, that things are going to change in a hurry. Do you think Putin went into Georgia because he was bored? Do you think we have the majority of our armed forces in a ring of fire right now because we promised the Navy boys that they would see the world?

 

This is one giant cash grab going on. Have you ever been in a junior high class when a substitute teacher takes over the class? That is what is about to happen.

 

I never mentioned prophecy until recently. I KNOW certain things are about to happen because there aren't any other options left. If you look around, the signs are all over. When you are in the middle of something that isn't right, it is your duty to try and get as many innocent people away from that something. If they aren't willing to get away, well at least they have been warned so they might react a tad faster when things begin to really breakdown.

 

I am humble for many things. Now is not a time to be humble. Pay attention to what is going on. Nobody knows the day or hour, but we will know the season.

 

Is this going to stop me from going to Bills games, tailgating at 10 AM with a case of Molson or force me into some cave.... No. I will however live without fear as Rome burns. Like I said, most Christians don't even want to talk about this because it gives the "brand" a bad name to some.

 

I've never gone for street cred on this website. I enjoy adding levity much more than telling everyone this is probably the big one setting up. I have no alterior motive other than to set this up so when things start falling apart in a hurry, maybe some people will pick up a bible and do a little Google work. What's the worst that happens? We all live happily ever after and I am a confirmed looney moron instead of a presumed one? I'll take that any day.

[SAM HARRIS]

Could not agree more DC.

I for one accepted Jesus as my savior, and in NO way shape or form does that mean "i look down on you because I am with Christ and you are not' In fact if you read the Bible, Christians are really supposed to act just the opposite. I mean look at the people Jesus helped and associated himself with based on the Gospel, lots of different walks of life.

 

I have friends that are Jewish, Atheist, and a lot of different 'religions' and personally that is the way I like it.

 

 

at least we can agree that its not to soon to say that love is truth for humanity and that nonbelievers and theists can come togther on this subject outside of doctrine and contribute to a world that is lacking morality.

[Dwight Drane]

Could not agree more DC.

I for one accepted Jesus as my savior, and in NO way shape or form does that mean "i look down on you because I am with Christ and you are not' In fact if you read the Bible, Christians are really supposed to act just the opposite. I mean look at the people Jesus helped and associated himself with based on the Gospel, lots of different walks of life.

 

I have friends that are Jewish, Atheist, and a lot of different 'religions' and personally that is the way I like it.

 

JP...I think you are missing some background info on me and this discussion. I don't expect you to jump in and know everything that has been said here over the years.

 

If someone thinks I am looking down at anyone else, I am not. I think this entire thread was started in a much better spirit than most threads which deal with the matter. My only quest at this point is truth. There is giant stuff going on right now. If it isn't the end of the world setting up, well then, some furniture is going to be moved.

 

This isn't my usual cup of tea. If I didn't feel it to be an urgent message of preparation and sobriety, I would just shut up.

 

I drink, gamble, overeat, can be cocky, lose my temper, and sometimes throw out a joke or two without thinking first how someone might take it. I am FAR from perfect, and I do not fit anyone's ideal of a religious person. However I consider my word golden, as do those that know me well. That is my point. I am not a prophet. I learn from everyone. I just have been lucky enough to be in certain places and with certain people and at certain times throughout my life to have a pretty good idea of what is probably happening right now. That is all. All doors eventually led me back to Jesus. And with that a duty to watch and inform.

[Dwight Drane]

at least we can agree that its not to soon to say that love is truth for humanity and that nonbelievers and theists can come togther on this subject outside of doctrine and contribute to a world that is lacking morality.

 

There is nothing wrong with that at all. I just said that I think you started this thread with good intent. Love is truth. I would say love is god. God wants truth.

 

I have plenty of scientist friends who I trust 100%. Some are athiest and some are just about every religion going. I don't care any less for anyone because of it. I do fear for our relationship in general with Islam, but that doesn't make me fear a person with pure intentions.

 

I've said on this board before....the most spiritual experience I have had with others was the comeback against Houston. Everyone in that stadium was on the same wavelength as it was happening. We were hugging, kissing, holding hands....total strangers all around. Because we were all bonded by one thing we believed in and were in the midst of learning a lifelong lesson. It wasn't about being a football fan. It was about being a human....a Buffalonian. It was about no matter how bad things look or get, we stick together and battle to the end.

 

I would be a fool to expect that to happen everytime the Bills are down 35-3 in the 3rd quarter. I guess if I predicted that would happen during every game the Bills were down by 30+, I would eventually have been right. But anyone who was at the stadium.....tell me there wasn't a palpable feeling that the Bills were going to win that game. At 35-10 the pain subsided, but at 35-17 the place knew what was about to happen. For the 40K or so that were there the whole game....I just feel the world is at that emotional point right now. I can't PROVE we are near the end, heck I can't PROVE there is a God to someone else. I do know enough about the teams, the game, and the situation though to have had that palpable switch turned on in me. It's 35-17 right now and I won't belittle anyone for leaving the stadium or not coming in the first place. I just want you to get back in that stadium or get in front of that TV or radio so you can experience what feels is about to happen. If you were there, you know what I am talking about.

[Pete]

very interesting thread!

[SAM HARRIS]

You can't prove God exists, period. In fact, ironically, it's easily provable that you can't prove God exists: God, as creator of the universe, must exist outside the universe. The universe, by definition, contains the sum total of everything that is knowable. To prove God exists would make him part of the sum total of everything that is knowable, i.e. place him within the universe...which would immediately prove that he is not God. The simple act of "proving" God exists would prove that he doesn't.

 

Which is why I said earlier: religion and science conflict, and will always conflict. Science is fundamentally based on empiricalism. Religion requires an absence of empiricism. Again, nothing wrong with that, it simply is what it is.

 

Now your point about prophecies, on the other hand...that's just ridiculous. People who prophecize aren't ridiculed because they're religious, they're ridiculed beause they're loons: they've always been proven wrong, yet they always insist that THIS time things will be different. You don't see me, for example, ridiculing buckeyemike or millbank for their religious beliefs (I get along quite well with them, in fact, despite having significantly different beliefs from them). But you also don't see them believing that their belief in God gives them the ability to predict the future, either. There is a fundamental difference in their humble acceptance of God and Jesus as their savior, and your arrogant beilef that God and Jesus give you an innate, prescient superiority over the unwashed masses.

 

just a question, i never understood this logic but what is outside the universe and how is that argument make it true that god exists?

[StupidNation]

God is provable through several means. Just because you don't understand or grasp them doesn't mean that it's not true. It's like arguing there is no such things as nuclear physics because you never finished calculus or don't grasp math. The argument presented here are 2 cent thoughts of absolute stupidity. God "must exist outside the universe", and Pascal's Wagers are not proofs of God. Pascal's Wager is about wagering your life if you don't think God exists and the wager of longer punishment or happiness whether or not you chose God. It's not meant to be a demonstrative proof but a means to happiness and virtue.

 

Aquinas's 5 proofs are demonstrative. The proof through motion as an Unmoved Mover, 1st Being, final cause, etc. are demonstrative through induction and deduction.

 

Let me show you show stupid one argument is:

 

"...it's easily provable that you can't prove God exists: God, as creator of the universe, must exist outside the universe. The universe, by definition, contains the sum total of everything that is knowable." The universe by definition is not truly quantifiable as we do not have the means to quantify it, but quantified in part, not in whole, by what is empirically known. The universe is a quantitative explanation of what materially exists. God is spirit (not like Scooby Doo idiocy I see here) and is hence immaterial. Therefore to reduce God to universe is about as intelligent as a plant preaching to humans that they are the most intelligent life they know. In both cases it's bad, bad logic.

 

The material in the universe is not all that is known or can be known. We know spiritual ideas such as justice, society, goodness, etc. which cannot be quantified. Society doesn't have black or blond hair, goodness is not attached to gender or age, and I can go on and on.

 

The problem here lies in the fact you are guys are clueless when talking about why God doesn't exist. Why not take a book on Epistemology and Ontology and get back to me.

[SAM HARRIS]

this is really a matter of common sense and u wont answer the question... first math or nuclear phyiscs are facts. i might not know everything about physics but i can look it up and learn the FACTS about math specifically. i will ask the question again. what specifically are you calling god? where is he? and what is GOD made out of. give me some facts in your discourse so i can be forced through reason and common sense to believe that this entity whatever it is exists??

[SAM HARRIS]

Pascal's Wager doesnt do anything and is outdated because the first question must be answered. u can apply pascals wager to anything... its better to believe that elvis is god because i can be happier... it doesnt make sense because firstly u must know what god is. this is basic metaphysics.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Pascal's Wager doesnt do anything and is outdated because the first question must be answered. u can apply pascals wager to anything... its better to believe that elvis is god because i can be happier... it doesnt make sense because firstly u must know what god is. this is basic metaphysics.

 

 

I thought Foley was God. I read it on a sign on the telervision.

[Andrew in CA]

Pascal's Wager doesnt do anything and is outdated because the first question must be answered. u can apply pascals wager to anything... its better to believe that elvis is god because i can be happier... it doesnt make sense because firstly u must know what god is. this is basic metaphysics.

Pascal's Wager is absurd- I don't think God wants you to believe in Him just to hedge your bets. Besides, how much do you actually believe in and will you follow what you claim to believe if the only reason you do is out of hedging your bets (I know that is poorly worded, but you get my drift). Part of faith is not being able to quantify, define, or prove God in any way. I don't have a problem with believing in something I can't fully ascertain. I know I feel God and recognize God in different ways on a daily basis, and I know that others don't or feel Him more or in totally separate ways. Everyone's relationship with God can be different. If you really feel that you need solid, scientific evidence of God's existence to believe, then keep searching, I wish you success. But don't disparage others' beliefs because they don't require this. This has been a civil thread, so I'm not implying that you're flying off the handle or anything, but I think your definition of what God needs to be is just different than others'. And that's cool, good luck on your search.

[SAM HARRIS]

cool cool but all i am saying is that in every area of discourse people use the same tools to find truth... in the court room, in science, in school, in mechanics, everything, but then when we talk about spirits or god anything goes. that shows that there is a real problem with having these specific beliefs about metaphysics especially if they are very hateful like in islam. thats all im just saying its not a bad thing for anyones beliefs to questioned or proven to be ridiculous, thats how society moves forward. THATS WHY WE DONT BURN HERETICS ALIVE ANYMORE, its a good thing......

[stuckincincy]

God is provable through several means. Just because you don't understand or grasp them doesn't mean that it's not true. It's like arguing there is no such things as nuclear physics because you never finished calculus or don't grasp math. The argument presented here are 2 cent thoughts of absolute stupidity. God "must exist outside the universe", and Pascal's Wagers are not proofs of God. Pascal's Wager is about wagering your life if you don't think God exists and the wager of longer punishment or happiness whether or not you chose God. It's not meant to be a demonstrative proof but a means to happiness and virtue.

 

Aquinas's 5 proofs are demonstrative. The proof through motion as an Unmoved Mover, 1st Being, final cause, etc. are demonstrative through induction and deduction.

 

Let me show you show stupid one argument is:

 

"...it's easily provable that you can't prove God exists: God, as creator of the universe, must exist outside the universe. The universe, by definition, contains the sum total of everything that is knowable." The universe by definition is not truly quantifiable as we do not have the means to quantify it, but quantified in part, not in whole, by what is empirically known. The universe is a quantitative explanation of what materially exists. God is spirit (not like Scooby Doo idiocy I see here) and is hence immaterial. Therefore to reduce God to universe is about as intelligent as a plant preaching to humans that they are the most intelligent life they know. In both cases it's bad, bad logic.

 

The material in the universe is not all that is known or can be known. We know spiritual ideas such as justice, society, goodness, etc. which cannot be quantified. Society doesn't have black or blond hair, goodness is not attached to gender or age, and I can go on and on.

 

The problem here lies in the fact you are guys are clueless when talking about why God doesn't exist. Why not take a book on Epistemology and Ontology and get back to me.

 

Or briefly...

 

"Hamlet:

 

And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 

Hamlet Act 1, Scene 5, 159–167"

[John Adams]

Dwight: you read the Bible and can interpret its prophecies? You do realize, don't you, that you're not the first person to read the Bible and think they are living in the end of days, don't you?

 

Further, what makes you think Christians have a lock on the whole god/end-of-the-world thing?

[DrDawkinstein]

great thread guys, especially given how volatile the subject can be.

 

ill do my best not to ruin it

 

but this made the top list on Digg.com so i thought id link it...

 

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