the problem with faith and religion

[Hazed and Amuzed]

I believe that something whatever u want to call started the universe but because there is no specific evidence to suggest exactly what it is i wont claim i know. the burden of proof is not on me but the one making the claim, christians jews and muslims are making claims that there is a god and this god however they name him has written this book the bible or other holy books. i am simply responding to the claim and saying there is no proof for the christian god. people dont fly in the air or raise from the dead or part the red sea. in fact lets for the sake of argument say that there is a god and he is taking interest in human events, morality and ethics. why doesnt god heal amputees or why does god let 5 year old girls drown during hurricane katrina, better yet if god is all-knowing or omniscient than how do we have free will. if he knows everything then everything is predetermined according to his will, so god is purposely sending people to hell. reasonable ground with all the evidence considered would suggest that something created all of this but be humble and admit we dont know what it is yet. all i am asking for is for people to use the same token when finding out if something is true and apply is to there religious claims.

 

Ummm. The burden on proof is on both believers and atheists. You can't prove that we came from the big bang or evolved from apes. In fact I dare you to try. Why is it that you feel the need to attack or look down on others beliefs? Because religion starts wars? I can tell you that it is not religion but closed minded individuals like yourself that start the wars.

[SAM HARRIS]

first of all the big bang is something that is not accepeted whole heartedly among scientists. evolution however is. here is the proof.

 

 

the primates have 48 chromonsomes

 

humans have 46, 23 from the m and 23 from the f

in chromosome 2 of human beings there is a fusion of chromosome 12 and 13 in primates. they are identical, these matches are found through all species of animals not just primates and humans that prove through geneaolgy we have common ancestory. here is a good link on the proof.

 

 

watch the whole thing its very interesting!

[Hazed and Amuzed]

first of all the big bang is something that is not accepeted whole heartedly among scientists. evolution however is. here is the proof.

 

 

the primates have 48 chromonsomes

 

humans have 46, 23 from the m and 23 from the f

in chromosome 2 of human beings there is a fusion of chromosome 12 and 13 in primates. they are identical, these matches are found through all species of animals not just primates and humans that prove through geneaolgy we have common ancestory. here is a good link on the proof.

 

 

watch the whole thing its very interesting!

 

Good video. What that proves though is that were all made of the same thing and it can be traced to the 12 and 13th chromosome.

I don't deny that we have evolved. That's obvious. Some people today are being born without wisdom teeth which to me is proof enough of evolution. Kidding aside though. Were is the proof that we evolved from apes? I understand that we are very close to the ape chromosome wise but where is the proof that we evolved from them? Where is that missing link? I could just as easily show you the empty tomb of Jesus and say "Look there's evidence that he rose from the dead". We both know that's not going to change you're mind. Again I'm being objective here and I don't claim any religion. Just that I believe there is a God. I wish there were actually physical proof of him but then what good is faith?

 

If they had found the missing link between humans and chimps I'm sure it would be national news and unless I missed it I have yet to hear of such a discovery.

[SAM HARRIS]

that doesnt prove that we are all made of the same thing because the chromosomes other than 2,12 and 13 which are not similar but identical prove that in species the more complex it becomes that fusion happens within a species to form a new one. this happens through adaptation, diverse genetics within species and also through adaptation through random mutation, all of these take place today within viruses mutating into another. they are less complex so they obviously evolve quciker. but since humans and primates are much more complex and stronger genetically it takes thousands and thousands of years to evolve. the proof is simply how humans and primates split when chromosome 12 and 13 fused together to form a more stronger genetically and in molecular biology, species in homo-sapiens. the missing link can also be characterized within fossils such as homo-erectus and Neanderthal. here is another link to support evolution through the means of paleontology.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

[DieHardFan]

I believe that something whatever u want to call started the universe but because there is no specific evidence to suggest exactly what it is i wont claim i know.

I conclude from this that you do acknowledge the existence of a higher power. Acknowledged?

 

the burden of proof is not on me but the one making the claim, christians jews and muslims are making claims that there is a god and this god however they name him has written this book the bible or other holy books. i am simply responding to the claim and saying there is no proof for the christian god.

Actually, the burden of proof is on the Holy Spirit. The Christian's task is to spread the Gospel. I recommend you research the concept of the Great Commision which was extrapolated from Matthew 28:16-20.

 

people dont fly in the air or raise from the dead or part the red sea.

I personally believe that these acts were initiated by God. My personal belief is that God, although he could be, is not a magician but utilizes the forces of nature to perform the acts known as miracles. And as a matter of fact technically speaking the examples you give can be accomplished with just the limited technology which man understands at this time.

 

in fact lets for the sake of argument say that there is a god and he is taking interest in human events, morality and ethics. why doesnt god heal amputees or why does god let 5 year old girls drown during hurricane katrina,

I don't profess to know the reason God does the things He does. In fact the Bible (which I believe to be the Word of God and that our power as Christians eminates from this Word; research this if it is facts that you seek) states that we are not meant to understand the reasoning behind God's works.

 

better yet if god is all-knowing or omniscient than how do we have free will.

I presume this and the next section were meant as one thought but there is a disconnect. To this point the fact that God knows what we are to decide does not preclude us from having the free will to do what we chose to do.

 

if he knows everything then everything is predetermined according to his will, so god is purposely sending people to hell.

I fail to see the logical connection between your if and then.

 

reasonable ground with all the evidence considered would suggest that something created all of this but be humble and admit we dont know what it is yet. all i am asking for is for people to use the same token when finding out if something is true and apply is to their religious claims.

Not sure where humility fits in here. I would say that using the "we" is the lack of humility. YOU may not know what it is yet or BELIEVE that I know what it is yet but my belief is that I know that God exists and is with us as I have felt His presence. Not cosmic stuff mind you as a am still a pretty carnal Christian. But in my book it's better to be a spittoon cleaner in heaven than a prince in hell.

 

God Bless you in your search for truth.

[SAM HARRIS]

I conclude from this that you do acknowledge the existence of a higher power. Acknowledged?

 

i acknowledge that something obviously started the universe but i dont know what it is.

 

Actually, the burden of proof is on the Holy Spirit. The Christian's task is to spread the Gospel. I recommend you research the concept of the Great Commision which was extrapolated from Matthew 28:16-20.

 

what is the holy spirit. what is a spirit...

 

I personally believe that these acts were initiated by God. My personal belief is that God, although he could be, is not a magician but utilizes the forces of nature to perform the acts known as miracles. And as a matter of fact technically speaking the examples you give can be accomplished with just the limited technology which man understands at this time.

 

u can add metaphysics to anything u want. i can believe that elvis is alive and well having a beer wiht joseph smith but that doesnt make it true or to be considered as a pinch of proof...

 

I don't profess to know the reason God does the things He does. In fact the Bible (which I believe to be the Word of God and that our power as Christians eminates from this Word; research this if it is facts that you seek) states that we are not meant to understand the reasoning behind God's works.

if u dont know why god does the things he does than how are u saved or how do u know him?????

 

 

I presume this and the next section were meant as one thought but there is a disconnect. To this point the fact that God knows what we are to decide does not preclude us from having the free will to do what we chose to do.

 

I fail to see the logical connection between your if and then.

 

Not sure where humility fits in here. I would say that using the "we" is the lack of humility. YOU may not know what it is yet or BELIEVE that I know what it is yet but my belief is that I know that God exists and is with us as I have felt His presence. Not cosmic stuff mind you as a am still a pretty carnal Christian. But in my book it's better to be a spittoon cleaner in heaven than a prince in hell.

 

God Bless you in your search for truth.

 

 

god is omniscient correct? if so than he knows all things in the past as well as the future. god has a plan that he already set up that man cannot effect correct? if we can change god's mind than he isnt omniscient or omnipotent. its a logical fallacy for god to be both.

[SAM HARRIS]

we dont respect peoples beliefs on anything in this world, we connect and marginalize with reasons and evidence not belief. u can believe whatever u want, doesnt make it true. thats the point.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

that doesnt prove that we are all made of the same thing because the chromosomes other than 2,12 and 13 which are not similar but identical prove that in species the more complex it becomes that fusion happens within a species to form a new one. this happens through adaptation, diverse genetics within species and also through adaptation through random mutation, all of these take place today within viruses mutating into another. they are less complex so they obviously evolve quciker. but since humans and primates are much more complex and stronger genetically it takes thousands and thousands of years to evolve. the proof is simply how humans and primates split when chromosome 12 and 13 fused together to form a more stronger genetically and in molecular biology, species in homo-sapiens. the missing link can also be characterized within fossils such as homo-erectus and Neanderthal. here is another link to support evolution through the means of paleontology.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

 

 

Okay maybe I misunderstood that part of it. My apologies. As far as the missing link. I don't think that evidence thus far has proven anything regarding a missing link. But we can just disagree. Tell me then about a spontaneous generation. How is it that life came about? Because scientists are not sure. Where did life come from? There are many views about it but NONE have been proven. In fact they have even tried to recreate the right conditions for life and the only result were created amino acids. Which tore the case down even more because the amino acids that were created were left handed and left handed amino acids destroy the chain of amino acids therefore they can not support life. Would you be open to the idea of life on Earth being brought here through bacteria on comets or meteors and evolving from that?

[SAM HARRIS]

yes louis pasteur put a end to spontaneous generation and how life cant just start but i would say i have no idea how life started. there r a # of theories with not much evidence within them but i wouldnt lie and say hey i know and use the god of the gaps argument. people say god must have done this when they dont understand certain things.

 

also what specifically do u need for a missing link? i dont understand.

[SAM HARRIS]

Ummm. The burden on proof is on both believers and atheists. You can't prove that we came from the big bang or evolved from apes. In fact I dare you to try. Why is it that you feel the need to attack or look down on others beliefs? Because religion starts wars? I can tell you that it is not religion but closed minded individuals like yourself that start the wars.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8dv7OUKjeE...feature=related

 

here is ur answer.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

yes louis pasteur put a end to spontaneous generation and how life cant just start but i would say i have no idea how life started. there r a # of theories with not much evidence within them but i wouldnt lie and say hey i know and use the god of the gaps argument. people say god must have done this when they dont understand certain things.

 

also what specifically do u need for a missing link? i dont understand.

 

But you're looking at it wrong. It's not that people are just filling in the gaps. There are 2 sides to this coin and each side can say that the other is filling in gaps. So that is not an argument I think that will accomplish anything. The way I see it is that science provides more evidence but CAN NOT PROVE the base theory of the argument against God which is "Where did life come from?" and since science declares that everything can be proven how can it justify this argument? This is the same dilemma that creationism is in. I can give you a million different theories about God but I can't prove any base to it. This is why you can not convince someone who believes in one about the other. Each have their gaps. I do however think your problem is with the church and not God. I may be wrong. Your posts seem angry at those who believe in God. You seem just as unwilling to believe there might be a God as people with faith do that there is one. I will say this though, I enjoy this conversation with you. You seem to know what you're talking about and that's refreshing.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8dv7OUKjeE...feature=related

 

here is ur answer.

 

 

Look we can all throw Youtube video's on here to prove our points for us but that doesn't require much thinking about what each other is saying does it? Instead of putting a link up to refute my responses think about what I'm saying and process it yourself. Hell, can find a video or Wiki link to prove any view I want. The people in those video's or the people who write wikipedia are not the end all be all. We need to lear to think for ourselves. I love the educational video's on youtube but I only use them to get different perspectives and therefore amend my thoughts based on wether or not it makes sense to me.

[SAM HARRIS]

But you're looking at it wrong. It's not that people are just filling in the gaps. There are 2 sides to this coin and each side can say that the other is filling in gaps. So that is not an argument I think that will accomplish anything. The way I see it is that science provides more evidence but CAN NOT PROVE the base theory of the argument against God which is "Where did life come from?" and since science declares that everything can be proven how can it justify this argument? This is the same dilemma that creationism is in. I can give you a million different theories about God but I can't prove any base to it. This is why you can not convince someone who believes in one about the other. Each have their gaps. I do however think your problem is with the church and not God. I may be wrong. Your posts seem angry at those who believe in God. You seem just as unwilling to believe there might be a God as people with faith do that there is one. I will say this though, I enjoy this conversation with you. You seem to know what you're talking about and that's refreshing.

 

 

i apologize if i come across to strident. its just that science is the one tool where evidence and facts and good philosophy and a argument constrained by intellecual honesty is what we must use to find the truth and map reality with it. there is an argument to be won peacefully through conversation and i happen to think that this is also the case when it comes to a priori beliefs and imperical belief. for me its gotta b imperical when it comes to declaring truth that people should accept which the one thing faith does but without the imperical evidence. science is in the business of trying to find out where did life come from and scientists are humble enough to say u know what i dont know yet but lets keep looking and use all the tools of science to find out. in a sense i think u and i could agree if we use science to find that higher power or god. i am not a patent nonsense type of person but i try to be in these discussions which i think more people should be talking about what is true and what isnt. look at it from a perspective in a court room. would the answer "my finger prints and dna magically appeared" b acceptable? no so why is it in religion?

[SAM HARRIS]

Look we can all throw Youtube video's on here to prove our points for us but that doesn't require much thinking about what each other is saying does it? Instead of putting a link up to refute my responses think about what I'm saying and process it yourself. Hell, can find a video or Wiki link to prove any view I want. The people in those video's or the people who write wikipedia are not the end all be all. We need to lear to think for ourselves. I love the educational video's on youtube but I only use them to get different perspectives and therefore amend my thoughts based on wether or not it makes sense to me.

 

 

i agree 100% its just a video that might explain my point a little better thats all. go bills!!!

[Hazed and Amuzed]

i apologize if i come across to strident. its just that science is the one tool where evidence and facts and good philosophy and a argument constrained by intellecual honesty is what we must use to find the truth and map reality with it. there is an argument to be one peacefully through conversation and i happen to think that this is also the case when it comes to a priori beliefs and imperical belief. for me its gotta b imperical when it comes to declaring truth that people should accept which the one thing faith does but without the imperical evidence. science is in the business of trying to find out where did life come from and scientists are humble enough to say u know what i dont know yet but lets keep looking and use all the tools of science to find out. in a sense i think u and i could agree if we use science to find that higher power or god. i am not a padent person but i try to be in these discussions which i think more people should be talking about what is true and what isnt. look at it from a perspective in a court room. would the answer "my finger prints and dna magically appeared" b acceptable? no so why is it in religion?

 

 

Have you ever watched every part to Zeitgeist? I think it might interest you. It covers everything from religion to the federal reserve. Very interesting movie. I know it gave me a few different perspectives on things.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE...feature=related

[SAM HARRIS]

Have you ever watched every part to Zeitgeist? I think it might interest you. It covers everything from religion to the federal reserve. Very interesting movie. I know it gave me a few different perspectives on things.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE...feature=related

 

 

yeah i am almost sure this whole terrorism thing is just another way for the bankers and powers that be to make more money. same bs different generation. they tricked us in vietnam and they got us again in iraq, but thats for another post. thanks man!

[Hazed and Amuzed]

yeah i am almost sure this whole terrorism thing is just another way for the bankers and powers that be to make more money. same bs different generation. they tricked us in vietnam and they got us again in iraq, but thats for another post. thanks man!

 

 

Yeah don't even get me started on that subject. lol We got one f'd up country.

[Dwight Drane]

i apologize if i come across to strident. its just that science is the one tool where evidence and facts and good philosophy and a argument constrained by intellecual honesty is what we must use to find the truth and map reality with it. there is an argument to be one peacefully through conversation and i happen to think that this is also the case when it comes to a priori beliefs and imperical belief. for me its gotta b imperical when it comes to declaring truth that people should accept which the one thing faith does but without the imperical evidence. science is in the business of trying to find out where did life come from and scientists are humble enough to say u know what i dont know yet but lets keep looking and use all the tools of science to find out. in a sense i think u and i could agree if we use science to find that higher power or god. i am not a patent nonsense type of person but i try to be in these discussions which i think more people should be talking about what is true and what isnt. look at it from a perspective in a court room. would the answer "my finger prints and dna magically appeared" b acceptable? no so why is it in religion?

 

Many scientists have no balls. They have to be told what to think. If it isn't proven, then it isn't true. However if I am bright enough to eliminate the mundane 20 steps in between an idea and proof in the name of efficiency while the scientist waits for absolute proof, then I am rewarded.

 

I would rather "reach" for far out thought processes with sound hypothesis then have to march through the scientist's life of proof. If it takes you 20 steps to get from A to Z, and you will know without a doubt if you are correct by the end of it, then that is cool. I prefer to make many "mini-proofs" in my head on small points and assign those statistical strength through educated estimation. I can in a very timely fashion come up with thoughts on "final answers" using my analysis while the scientist is just getting started, or laughs at an idea and sits on his hands. I can come up with 20 cliff-noted "final answers" in the amount of time it takes that scientist to come up with one, and his may only lead him to start another series of 20 steps to find the one he is looking for.

 

Now...I have the benefit of 20 ideas in my head much quicker than that scientist. While he is focused on his one process, I can live life free of a set definition of boundaries and let my experiences and continued acquisition of knowledge sort out and give me "final proof" on my original 20 "final answers" I had come up with. Some may get strengthened, some may get blown apart, and some may be dead on. It is only that I am confident enough to accept the personal risk of these ideas and my use of them that gives me an advantage. A timely advantage.

 

When it comes to God, most scientists are doomed. You will never have your proof until it is too late. A person with faith however is accepting to the fact that there is a good chance God exists, and looks at the world assuming God plays a part. It is only then that one will start to see and feel things in the eyes of God. You have to be willing to give up your borders though.

 

I understand that religion is used to "keep the herd" in line many times, and many people just follow what they know or grew up with. You then have a valid point in breaking things down. However, when a person is able to separate themselves from a process or idea enough to make an unbiased observation, then comes BACK to God or comes to God in the first place, then you have the magic that is God at work.

 

God, Jesus, and the validity of the Bible are relevant to me because of my thought process. They are "final answers" that have been strengthened in my mind and heart over time.

 

While not as important, I also use the same process to make statements much earlier than most are willing to commit, such as:

 

1) Trent Edwards will be a top level starting quarterback in the NFL for a decade

2) The US Economy has reached a breaking point that will forever change our way of life and role in the world

3) The Sabres woudn't sniff a Stanley Cup and would fall off the face of the earth because of lack of balls from top to bottom

4) James Hardy is at the very least a "dull" human, and may have a personality disorder that will cause him professional setbacks on the field and personal ones off the field

5) Marshawn Lynch will wear down fast and have a short career due to his physical conformation and his style of play. (Draft Freddy Jackson late!)

6) We are about to see WWIII and the second coming of Christ

 

 

Now, it is laughable that I lump these all together, but I convey these statements over time not because I am a Sports Talk Blowhard that shouts things for the sake of shouting, but because I am able to quickly assign quantitative outlooks on subjective material and come to a best-odds conclusion. Of course I am not always right 100%, but I have enough confidence in my ability, morality, experience and faith to make these calls. I don't mind getting laughed at by some, and I certainly don't mind people getting angry at me, because those are the same people that need to be exposed many times for their true selves. I certainly don't expect many to even understand where I am coming from. In a more modest setting than an opinion board I would tend to be more modest, but this is at the end of the day an opinion board on subjects for which I have great passion. It is because of that passion which we all share that I put things out there the way I do. Every now and then there are a few on these boards that catch my jive, even if they don't agree with me or think I'm half Fruit Loops. That's what makes it worth it.

 

Science is necessary and beneficial. It isn't God though. Stop thinking like a scientist!

[SAM HARRIS]

Pasqual's Wager is one of the worst arguments out there. the idea that well if im wrong it doesnt matter because i will be dead but if im right i have everything to gain. most importantly u dont know who god is or what he is just like all of us. Pasqual's Wager is a tacit endorsment of intimidation and makes no sense because with the variety in religion u could be wrong just as much as me. its horrible stone age logic.

 

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

 

here is more info on this type of philopsophy that is outdated and a trick theists use. no pun intended

here is what ur argument really is and it has severe consequences when u use people's fear.

 

"When it comes to God, most scientists are doomed. You will never have your proof until it is too late. A person with faith however is accepting to the fact that there is a good chance God exists, and looks at the world assuming God plays a part. It is only then that one will start to see and feel things in the eyes of God. You have to be willing to give up your borders though."

[SAM HARRIS]

Pasqual's Wager is one of the worst arguments out there. the idea that well if im wrong it doesnt matter because i will be dead but if im right i have everything to gain. most importantly u dont know who god is or what he is just like all of us. Pasqual's Wager is a tacit endorsment of intimidation and makes no sense because with the variety in religion u could be wrong just as much as me. its horrible stone age logic.

 

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

 

here is more info on this type of philopsophy that is outdated and a trick theists use. no pun intended

here is what ur argument really is and it has severe consequences when u use people's fear.

 

"When it comes to God, most scientists are doomed. You will never have your proof until it is too late. A person with faith however is accepting to the fact that there is a good chance God exists, and looks at the world assuming God plays a part. It is only then that one will start to see and feel things in the eyes of God. You have to be willing to give up your borders though."

 

 

what r u calling god and where is he? its a simple question and should be clear for all humanity especially if god cares about us knowing him...