the problem with faith and religion

[SAM HARRIS]

Tihs wkros too, but it deonst mkae it rghit wehn cmmicuonaintg wtih oehtrs.

 

I fingered you because you're a serial abuser who may have an understanding of grammar rules. If you were just a short-buser like VABills, I would let your illiterate posts slide. (He was a Marine so he doesn't mind taking some shrapnel now and then.)

 

Following rules of grammar--or at least trying to--shows respect and courtesy. Like looking a person in the eye when talking. Like dressing appropriately for a meeting. Like showing up on time. You don't have to do these things. You can be a real rebel and l33t speak it up all you want to if that's what makes you feel cool.

 

 

do u have anything at all to say relating to the spectrum of this thread?

[John Adams]

do have anything at all to say relating to the spectrum of this thread?

 

Been posting here long? This little exchange is remarkably on topic 11 pages into a thread.

 

Half the posts in this thread are yours. This dead horse seems pretty well beat for now, and I already posted several times when we were still on topic. I don't think I responded to you in any of those posts because I didn't read much or what you said until out here on page 10.

[SAM HARRIS]

Been posting here long? This little exchange is remarkably on topic 11 pages into a thread.

 

Half the posts in this thread are yours. This dead horse seems pretty well beat for now, and I already posted several times when we were still on topic. I don't think I responded to you in any of those posts because I didn't read much or what you said until out here on page 10.

 

 

i guess not....

[Cugalabanza]

sometimes i am to serious haha but anyways how did u like philosophy and what specific studies do u dive into now that help with the big questions?

I didn't mean you're too serious. Just that you seem to care a lot.

 

Philosophy was great for me. I actually enjoyed the challenge of it--something I couldn't really say for most of the other classes I took. Looking back, it was definitely worthwhile--not in any financial sense for sure, but I'm glad I did it.

 

I don't read much philosophy these days. Much of the classic stuff seems dusty to me and contemporary philosophy can be really densely academic. I check out some stuff every once in a while or go back and read some of the classic stuff (sometimes just for a laugh, like "holy crap, Kant is a pretentious windbag!"). Thomas Nagel is a contemporary guy that I really like. The best thing is just knowing smart people who like to talk about the same stuff as you.

 

 

Are you familiar with Bertrand Russell? He is a thinker I really admire. I think you will love his essay, "Why I Am Not A Christian." The entire text is right here...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm

[SAM HARRIS]

I didn't mean you're too serious. Just that you seem to care a lot.

 

Philosophy was great for me. I actually enjoyed the challenge of it--something I couldn't really say for most of the other classes I took. Looking back, it was definitely worthwhile--not in any financial sense for sure, but I'm glad I did it.

 

I don't read much philosophy these days. Much of the classic stuff seems dusty to me and contemporary philosophy can be really densely academic. I check out some stuff every once in a while or go back and read some of the classic stuff (sometimes just for a laugh, like "holy crap, Kant is a pretentious windbag!"). Thomas Nagel is a contemporary guy that I really like. The best thing is just knowing smart people who like to talk about the same stuff as you.

 

 

Are you familiar with Bertrand Russell? He is a thinker I really admire. I think you will love his essay, "Why I Am Not A Christian." The entire text is right here...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm

 

 

russell's teapot, (one of my favorite), should have ended so many arguments but 4 some reason it wont, i guess old habits do die hard...

[SAM HARRIS]

great read!

[DC Tom]

Classical definition of science: knowledge or a system of knowledge of general truths or the operation of general laws based on principles of thought. Scientia, as it was classically understood has always meant a body of known things by PRINCIPLES. Metaphysics is a science, the highest of them all. No, it does not fit the high school definition of science taught today, but those are the facts of the etymology and philology of the word.

 

To say God is incompatible with science is completely incorrect. God is incompatible with experimental sciences based on empiricism and the collection and theories of quantitative research, but not by science's historical understanding of the world as understood for 4,000 years. Have you ever read ancient Greek works on science you would see this meaning, and it has passed through the ages from Socrates to Boethius to Aquinas to Pasteur to mean these same thing until recently where empirical sciences usurped the broader meaning of the word.

 

Modern schooling... have you really treated your students so poorly? 100 years ago this was common knowledge to any college grad.

 

Pasteur? The metaphysical aspects of "scientia" passed by about 400 years before he was born. The empiricism in science isn't a recent development, it dates back to classical Greece (and yes, I have read ancient Greek philosophy. In the original Greek. You?) As a practical matter, it's been common since the 1400's. Classifying "metaphysics" as the highest science based on historical etymology going back 2500 years is fallacious...we're not discussing historical etymology as it applies to articles of faith. We are, in fact, discussing both topics in their modern usage.

 

Your attempt to fall back on Aristotlean definitions is nothing more than you being unable to argue your own convictions. Go blow smoke somewhere else.

[SAM HARRIS]

Pasteur? The metaphysical aspects of "scientia" passed by about 400 years before he was born. The empiricism in science isn't a recent development, it dates back to classical Greece (and yes, I have read ancient Greek philosophy. In the original Greek. You?) As a practical matter, it's been common since the 1400's. Classifying "metaphysics" as the highest science based on historical etymology going back 2500 years is fallacious...we're not discussing historical etymology as it applies to articles of faith. We are, in fact, discussing both topics in their modern usage.

 

Your attempt to fall back on Aristotlean definitions is nothing more than you being unable to argue your own convictions. Go blow smoke somewhere else.

 

i agree and it strikes me so much how christians r the ones who talk about humility and admitting that its ok to b wrong, not sure, forgiveness, and on and on and on, yet they make these claims about creationism or the bible that tell people like hawkins well i see how u got all those equations over there but it says right here that god created the earth and eve came from a rib. unreal, just unreal.

 

and then this guy stupidnation talks about 100 years ago this is common knowledge. hey buddy i think 100 yrs ago we also found out santa wasnt real..................................

[outsidethebox]

i agree and it strikes me so much how christians r the ones who talk about humility and admitting that its ok to b wrong, not sure, forgiveness, and on and on and on, yet they make these claims about creationism or the bible that tell people like hawkins well i see how u got all those equations over there but it says right here that god created the earth and eve came from a rib. unreal, just unreal.

 

and then this guy stupidnation talks about 100 years ago this is common knowledge. hey buddy i think 100 yrs ago we also found out santa wasnt real..................................

Man, what do you want? Your right everyone who believes in God is wrong. Feel better now? You win. you can continue being God in your own little world. Your not looking for a conversation, or"answers". Your looking for a reason to put down peoples own personal beliefs.

 

get over yourself already.People a lot smarter than you and DC Tom have been trying to discredit the belief of a higher power for over Four Thousand years! It hasn't happened yet,and to be frank, your not the one who is going to disprove it.

[SAM HARRIS]

Man, what do you want? Your right everyone who believes in God is wrong. Feel better now? You win. you can continue being God in your own little world. Your not looking for a conversation, or"answers". Your looking for a reason to put down peoples own personal beliefs.

 

get over yourself already.People a lot smarter than you and DC Tom have been trying to discredit the belief of a higher power for over Four Thousand years! It hasn't happened yet,and to be frank, your not the one who is going to disprove it.

 

 

ahhhh and here we go with the political correctness, i call into question the existence of god and now i am putting down people, not being open minded...

 

westside, lets make this a little easier for u to understand

 

lets say i got into a car accident with u......................

 

later in court i say my car magically appeared in front of westside's and i am not at fault, the car just started moving by itself. in fact i wasnt even in the car i was busy healing amputees in africa.......

 

look man i think its time that these bibical beliefs be held to some skeptical scrutiny and to say its close minded to do so or putting down peoples beliefs is missing the point.

 

if u and i r together as doctors and we r about to perform heart surgery dont u think it might matter just a little bit that we r correct and honest and know the truth about heart surgery??? same thing here.

 

go bills!

[SAM HARRIS]

ahhhh and here we go with the political correctness, i call into question the existence of god and now i am putting down people, not being open minded...

 

westside, lets make this a little easier for u to understand

 

lets say i got into a car accident with u......................

 

later in court i say my car magically appeared in front of westside's and i am not at fault, the car just started moving by itself. in fact i wasnt even in the car i was busy healing amputees in africa.......

 

look man i think its time that these bibical beliefs be held to some skeptical scrutiny and to say its close minded to do so or putting down peoples beliefs is missing the point.

 

if u and i r together as doctors and we r about to perform heart surgery dont u think it might matter just a little bit that we r correct and honest and know the truth about heart surgery??? same thing here.

 

go bills!

 

 

keep in mind,

 

someone is right and someone is wrong. its that simple. and for the most part people like being right and knowing reality as it is and not as they wish.

 

i can wish that there was a god who loved us and hey he is up there in heaven with streets of gold but sry to say i have a brain that has a few questions. so please stop with the political correctness and other generalities that get people of topic and onto emotions. facts r facts and so far nobody can give any.

[SAM HARRIS]

would it b dogmatic or close minded to call into question racism, communism, astrology, santa. get my drift, this is not being close minded, or i want to win some argument out of strife. its becasue some of these beliefs really r on the level of the easter bunny.... come on people. i hate to b so strident but seriously its annoying when i here people say i am the one thinking in the box when someone says i am going to some place called hell by someone with a pitch fork.....

[outsidethebox]

Ther is no PC coming from me. Not at all, You just can't seem to understand what I'm trying to say. Your to busy trying to prove your right. You can't see another persons point of view.

 

Look, you admitted you are only 24 years old. You have a lot of living and a lot of learning to do. hey, when I was 24, I thought i had all the answers to. Then I got older and realized not only did i not have the answers, I didn't even know th questions!

 

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever been through the miracle of child being born? That to me is proof enough to me that there is something higher than us out there. life itself, broken down, is a miracle. I'm not talking about evolution or creationism. I'm talking about the miracle of life itself. how every cell has to be formed perfectly and how they have to work perfectly for us to even live. I'm sorry, i think it takes more "faith" to believe all of that just happened by chance.

 

lts almost impossible for life to form by chance. You have better odds of a tornado ripping through a neighberhood and forming a 747 jet from the debris than life forming by chance.

 

There is an old saying that I think pertains to you. there is no one as blind as someone who who refuse's to see. Open your eyes, look at the beauty of nature, life. That to me is more than enough evidence.

[SAM HARRIS]

here !!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjhbccXIp4c

[outsidethebox]

would it b dogmatic or close minded to call into question racism, communism, astrology, santa. get my drift, this is not being close minded, or i want to win some argument out of strife. its becasue some of these beliefs really r on the level of the easter bunny.... come on people. i hate to b so strident but seriously its annoying when i here people say i am the one thinking in the box when someone says i am going to some place called hell by someone with a pitch fork.....

Not all Christions belief in hell and a pitchfork. Could you converse without being so dramatic?

[SAM HARRIS]

the argument from design again gives no proof. who created god then and what r u calling god??????

 

a child being born..... ok

 

cells working together..... ok u do realize there is a thing called natural selection.

[outsidethebox]

here !!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjhbccXIp4c

sorry, that is pretty lame.

[SAM HARRIS]

the argument from design again gives no proof. who created god then and what r u calling god??????

 

a child being born..... ok

 

cells working together..... ok u do realize there is a thing called natural selection.

 

 

i also never made any claim about everything being random and coming together by chance. i have made the claim i dont know how life started because there is little evidence. this is safe ground, and i just wish u can tell me what god is. please.

[SAM HARRIS]

why is it lame?

[SAM HARRIS]

if u really think that a god does exist do u think he is omniscient and omnipotent?