Peter King, let me introduce you to AKC

[Dibs]

And I'll continue to point out that the best teams use higher draft equity on DTs than the Bills.

The next question becomes- why are you really trying to publicly argue that the football fact I agree with (the best teams use a higher amount of top draft equity on DTs than the Bills) in any wildly grasping way suggests that "any DT taken in the first round" is a the strategy used by the best teams?

Here we go again.

You nitpick on semantics all the time while conveniently changing words to suit.

You said....

.......I have made the offer to all the spammer to show a single post in which I suggested that selecting "any DT" was somehow a logical or desirable draft strategy. Of course not a single spammer has produced any such nonsense.......

"Any DT".....not just "any DT taken in the first round"

 

This is all besides your point......your point is clear.....and clearly wrong.

You state 'best teams' and 'higher draft equity'. You have stated this many times and every time I see it I show you that it is wrong(I figure eventually you will man up to your mistake and accept it is wrong....so I persist).

 

Who are the best teams? If your definition of 'best teams' is teams that use higher draft equity on DTs then of course you are right. Most would define 'best teams' as those that consistently perform well.

 

High draft equity? Obviously meaning a higher ratio than the norm of their draft resources spent on DT.

 

Below is a list of every team rated for average wins over the last 4 seasons(aveage wins in brackets first)....red teams have used noticeably high draft equity on DTs(IMO) than the Bills......green is noticeably less. Next to them in brackets is the draft picks(1st 3 rounds) they have spent over the last 8 drafts(not including trades etc) and red numbers are DTs.

 

(13)Patriots(6,10,13,21,21,21,24,32,32,36,36,45,48,62,63,64,78,84,86,86,94,100)

(12.75)Colts(11,24,29,30,30,32,37,42,42,44,58,59,60,62,68,69,74,90,91,92,93,94,95,98)

(11.5)Chargers(1,5,5,12,19,27,28,30,30,32,35,37,39,46,48,50,61,62,65,67,69,71,80,81,96)

(11)Steelers(11,15,16,19,23,25,30,30,38,39,46,53,59,62,62,75,77,83,88,93,94,95)

 

(10.25)Seahawks(9,11,17,23,26,28,28,31,38,40,42,45,53,54,55,60,63,73,82,84,85,85,85,98)

(10)Jaguars(7,8,9,9,13,21,21,28,39,39,40,43,48,52,52,55,60,72,73,79,80,86,87,89,94)

(9.75)Broncos(11,12,17,17,19,20,24,41,42,51,51,51,54,56,56,61,70,76,85,87,96,97,101)

(9.25)Dallas(5,8,11,18,20,22,25,26,37,38,42,43,52,53,53,56,61,63,67,69,75,83,92,93)

(9.25)Eagles(14,15,16,25,26,31,35,36,39,47,49,55,57,58,59,61,63,63,71,77,80,87,89,90,91,95)

(9)Bears(4,8,14,14,14,22,29,31,35,38,39,42,44,47,57,62,68,68,70,72,73,78,90,93,93,94)

 

(8.75)Giants(4,14,20,22,25,31,32,34,43,44,46,51,56,63,74,78,78,81,91,95,96)

(8.75)Packers(5,10,16,20,24,25,29,36,41,47,51,52,56,58,60,63,67,70,71,72,72,75,78,79,87,89,91,92)

(8.5)Bengals(1,4,9,10,17,18,24,26,33,36,41,46,48,49,49,55,56,65,66,67,77,80,83,91,96,97)

(8.25)Panthers(2,8,11,13,14,19,25,27,28,34,44,45,50,54,58,59,62,67,73,74,74,76,79,82,83,88,89,89,94)

(8.25)Ravens(10,12,18,19,22,24,29,31,51,52,53,55,56,62,64,71,74,77,82,86,86,87,92,99)

 

(7.75)Vikings(7,7,7,9,17,18,20,27,38,40,43,44,48,48,49,51,57,64,69,70,71,72,80,88)

(7.5)Redskins(no DTs selected)

(7.5)Buccaneers(no DTs selected)

(7.5)Falcons(1,3,8,8,18,21,27,29,35,37,37,39,41,55,59,68,75,79,80,84,90,90,98)

(7.5)Chiefs(5,6,15,15,20,23,27,35,36,43,47,54,54,61,73,75,76,77,82,82,85,92,93,99)

(7.0)Bills(4,8,11,12,13,21,22,23,26,34,36,41,46,48,55,58,61,70,72,74,76,86,92,94,95,97)

(7.0)Jets(4,4,6,12,14,16,22,29,30,47,47,49,49,53,57,57,76,76,79,85,88,88,97)

(7.0)Saints(2,6,7,13,13,18,23,25,27,37,40,40,43,44,50,60,70,66,81,82,82,86,88)

 

(6.75)Titans(3,6,15,19,24,28,40,41,42,45,45,50,54,57,60,60,68,71,77,80,85,90,92,93,96)

(6.25)Rams(2,12,12,13,15,19,20,24,29,31,33,42,43,46,50,52,64,65,66,68,74,77,81,83,84,84,91,93,95)

(6)Browns(3,3,3,6,13,16,21,22,33,34,34,47,52,53,59,65,67,76,78,84)

(6)Cardinals(2,3,5,8,10,12,16,17,18,33,33,34,41,44,49,50,54,54,64,64,69,70,72,75,81,81,95,98)

 

(5.75)Texans(1,1,3,10,10,16,26,27,33,33,41,50,65,66,66,67,73,73,75,79,83,88,89)

(5.25)Lions(2,2,3,7,9,10,17,18,30,34,35,37,37,40,43,45,50,58,61,61,64,66,68,72,73,74,87,92)

(5)Dolphins(no DTs selected)

(4.5)49ers(1,6,7,11,22,26,27,28,29,31,33,39,46,47,57,58,65,69,75,76,77,80,84,89,94,97)

(3.75)Raiders(no DTs selected)

 

 

IMO having good DTs is very important to having a good team.......but to assume that good teams use a higher percent of their draft equity on DTs is ludicrous. Apart from the facts do not support the theory, teams can draft a lot at DT and keep getting busts(therefore needing to draft more) while other teams may get lucky in the lower rounds or via FA.

 

This is the last time that I spend so much time on this subject. You would be wise to alter your theory to "Good teams generally have good DTs" From there you can put forward an argument that drafting for them would be a wise move. Continually saying what you have been is at best stubborn & misguided......at worst moronic.

[Dibs]

Quickly add yourself to the above crowd my friend. New posters will learn as did I, that when they disagree with you, they are far more likely to be wrong than right.

 

Pass rushing DEs are the hardest guys on defense to find, but DTs are the players who free these guys up. People can chide you as they wish. Some of them I think are joking, others are blind homers (which isn't a bad thing), but there ARE a few reasons why the Bills have been losing year after year. A primary one is the lack of quality DTs. Yes, you are correct.

 

Posters can always pull out stats to prove anything. They can cite things such as the Colts drafting a lot of DBs, ignoring the fact that they only did so AFTER their lines were stocked, and they had a great running back, QB, and WR.

 

The Bills are lucky to have Jason Peters. They even cut him in 2004. Now, they want him to play for peanuts. I won't call the addition of Stroud luck. That was a marvelous trade that Levy made, and I am far from being his biggest fan. The Bills historically forego Lineman in the early rounds of the draft, and when they DID select a DT or OL in round 1 or 2, the last good pick was Ruben Brown. This is unacceptable.

 

In any event, lets hope that Stroud can play back to form. I think that he can but who knows? If McCargo is any good, we might have a decent rotation, because Spencer looked better than I expected.

The problem with peoples objection to AKCs thoughts isn't that they disagree with the concept that DTs are very important to a team......it's that he persists with the ludicrous notion that 'the good teams use higher draft equity on DTs(and that's why they are good)"

[GG]

Quickly add yourself to the above crowd my friend. New posters will learn as did I, that when they disagree with you, they are far more likely to be wrong than right.

 

Pass rushing DEs are the hardest guys on defense to find, but DTs are the players who free these guys up. People can chide you as they wish. Some of them I think are joking, others are blind homers (which isn't a bad thing), but there ARE a few reasons why the Bills have been losing year after year. A primary one is the lack of quality DTs. Yes, you are correct.

 

Posters can always pull out stats to prove anything. They can cite things such as the Colts drafting a lot of DBs, ignoring the fact that they only did so AFTER their lines were stocked, and they had a great running back, QB, and WR.

 

The Bills are lucky to have Jason Peters. They even cut him in 2004. Now, they want him to play for peanuts. I won't call the addition of Stroud luck. That was a marvelous trade that Levy made, and I am far from being his biggest fan. The Bills historically forego Lineman in the early rounds of the draft, and when they DID select a DT or OL in round 1 or 2, the last good pick was Ruben Brown. This is unacceptable.

 

In any event, lets hope that Stroud can play back to form. I think that he can but who knows? If McCargo is any good, we might have a decent rotation, because Spencer looked better than I expected.

 

Bill, you have to be honest with the argument though. In this insanity of a thought process that began sometime in March, I have yet to see a single poster deny that having quality talent on both sides of the line is key to winning. Always has been always will.

 

But, where the argument breaks down is using a concocted formula and rating system to "prove" that teams that don't draft DTs high enough are destined to be losers, while the others are winners. That's crap, because data does not prove it. What is universal is that far greater predictors of success are the guys doing the drafting and coaching. If they make the right moves, the team will win. It's really that simple.

 

Because this argument really boils down to sour grapes that Bills drafted Evans instead of Harris and Whitner instead of Ngata. Nothing more, nothing less. But it's certainly been an entertaining read to see the contortion of a "statistical" exercise to backfill data into that argument.

[C.Biscuit97]

Quickly add yourself to the above crowd my friend. New posters will learn as did I, that when they disagree with you, they are far more likely to be wrong than right.

 

Pass rushing DEs are the hardest guys on defense to find, but DTs are the players who free these guys up. People can chide you as they wish. Some of them I think are joking, others are blind homers (which isn't a bad thing), but there ARE a few reasons why the Bills have been losing year after year. A primary one is the lack of quality DTs. Yes, you are correct.

 

Posters can always pull out stats to prove anything. They can cite things such as the Colts drafting a lot of DBs, ignoring the fact that they only did so AFTER their lines were stocked, and they had a great running back, QB, and WR.

 

The Bills are lucky to have Jason Peters. They even cut him in 2004. Now, they want him to play for peanuts. I won't call the addition of Stroud luck. That was a marvelous trade that Levy made, and I am far from being his biggest fan. The Bills historically forego Lineman in the early rounds of the draft, and when they DID select a DT or OL in round 1 or 2, the last good pick was Ruben Brown. This is unacceptable.

 

In any event, lets hope that Stroud can play back to form. I think that he can but who knows? If McCargo is any good, we might have a decent rotation, because Spencer looked better than I expected.

 

 

If the Bills had finished 1-15 in 1997 and had the #1 pick, they'd be the team in the playoffs every year. There drafting history is no different than the Bills. Currently, they don't have one 1st round o-linemen and have several late rounders and undrfated FAs starting. They also have spent 3 1st rounders on receivers and 2 on running backs. If the Bills did this draft strategy, your head would explode. But if the Bills had Manning, you would applaud.

 

Honestly, if you have a good QB, it makes your draft choices better. The guy who steals clothes from homeless guy who coaches NE was Dick Jauron before he had Brady. People probably won't be throwing around the term genius if he had to go to war with Jim Miller, Cade McKown, and JP Losman. Parcells picked up a beyond his prime Bledsoe before a UDFA QB saved his butt. Good QB = good personell decisions. It's that simple.

 

If Edwards turns out to be a franchise QB, the Bills' draft strategy would be praised and Levy would go down as a great GM.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, you have to be honest with the argument though. In this insanity of a thought process that began sometime in March, I have yet to see a single poster deny that having quality talent on both sides of the line is key to winning. Always has been always will.

 

But, where the argument breaks down is using a concocted formula and rating system to "prove" that teams that don't draft DTs high enough are destined to be losers, while the others are winners. That's crap, because data does not prove it. What is universal is that far greater predictors of success are the guys doing the drafting and coaching. If they make the right moves, the team will win. It's really that simple.

 

Because this argument really boils down to sour grapes that Bills drafted Evans instead of Harris and Whitner instead of Ngata. Nothing more, nothing less. But it's certainly been an entertaining read to see the contortion of a "statistical" exercise to backfill data into that argument.

 

I do see your point, but I see his also (sans the formula). Please look at the 2006 draft. I have brought this up to Ramius many times. Do you see how late they selected? Now......please look at THIS 2006 draft. Do you see how early we selected. We gave away a first day pick to boot. Honestly, would you have been upset to have the players that TB selected? We could have had that AND extra picks.

 

Maybe AKC is trying to say that the Bills, a cold weather, small market franchise, concentrated on drafting dbs, aka "SECONDARY," for years on end and lost while doing so. We didn't seem to care about positions such as OC, OG, OT, and yes....DT.

We are not going to get a star DT as a UFA. It is all but impossible. They don't even want to pay an all-star LT. The Bills must rely on the draft more than rich franchises to get these guys, and they don't even appear to try.

 

Anyway, sure....we can pick apart his "formula," but is he really wrong?

[GG]

I do see your point, but I see his also (sans the formula). Please look at the 2006 draft. I have brought this up to Ramius many times. Do you see how late they selected? Now......please look at THIS 2006 draft. Do you see how early we selected. We gave away a first day pick to boot. Honestly, would you have been upset to have the players that TB selected? We could have had that AND extra picks.

 

Why would you introduce '06 Bucs as an example? Of those guys, only the top two picks have contributed. Of course they happen to be in a position that I think you have liked in the past But look at the other picks - only one is still on the team and he's a backup. Compared to Bills '06 draft, which netted 4 starters and 3 good reserves?

[Bill from NYC]

Why would you introduce '06 Bucs as an example?

 

Because they could have drafted those guy who they desperately needed, AND had 2 more first day picks. Gerry, you don't deny this, do you?

[GG]

Because they could have drafted those guy who they desperately needed, AND had 2 more first day picks. Gerry, you don't deny this, do you?

 

The Whitner/Ngata debate will go on forever. The bottom line to me is that the franchise has been on a better course since 2006. In the end, Bills are a better team than the Ravens & Bucs and I like their chances this year more than those two teams.

[Sisyphean Bills]

The Whitner/Ngata debate will go on forever. The bottom line to me is that the franchise has been on a better course since 2006. In the end, Bills are a better team than the Ravens & Bucs and I like their chances this year more than those two teams.

I'm wondering what supporting evidence you imply to back that statement. Just curious, because it's not really that cut and dried.

[Chilly]

I will commend you that unlike some of the other spammers on their way to their 10Kth post, you're willing to admit here that the reality turned out to be exactly what I suggested in the period leading to the 2008 draft- smart teams in 2008 weren't going to be thinking about taking a WR at the top of the draft.

 

The problem with some of the other WR fans is that while like you they couldn't at accept the evidence being offered before the draft, unlike you they are still fighting the reality of the draft as it played out.

 

Really? I've argued that it didn't turn out that way? Please, show me where, Mr. "anti-promoting falsehoods against those of us who come here to actually talk about football".

 

I argued that it wasn't necessarily a weak receiver class because none went at #11. I also argued that taking a WR at #11 wouldn't have doomed us this year, and that we had no idea what the Bills draft board was before they drafted.

 

As far as any of the spammers who live in their denial to this day about playing up WR while decrying any evidence that it wasn't desirable for us as a team, you can do better than to buy into misrepresentations and outright lies. I have made the offer to all the spammer to show a single post in which I suggested that selecting "any DT" was somehow a logical or desirable draft strategy. Of course not a single spammer has produced any such nonsense.

 

I believe that the appropriate rebuttal to this nonsense was posted above.

 

 

So as you accrue the big post total you're headed for, you get to decide. Do you jump into promoting falsehoods against those of us who come here to actually talk about football, or do you keep some integrity between your content and the nonsense spewed out by the few who clearly to spend a majority of their waking hours becoming an overriding presence on internet message boards?

 

Funny, everything you've accused us of doing is exactly what you've been doing in this thread.

 

Weasels probably get a bad rap when it comes to those who would misrepresent something over an over- hoping that by lying again and again, someone who wasn't paying too much attention might buy into it. At this point I'd thought it had become very clear who was't intelligent enough to see the difference between the position I've always had above and the idiot's position a couple of you spammers have tried to frame it into to. I was thinking your only problem was that you weren't honest enough to admit to the framing attempts, but perhaps I instead simply overestimated your intellect.

 

You, sir, might at this point be the most amusing poster on the board.

 

Quickly add yourself to the above crowd my friend. New posters will learn as did I, that when they disagree with you, they are far more likely to be wrong than right.

 

Pass rushing DEs are the hardest guys on defense to find, but DTs are the players who free these guys up. People can chide you as they wish. Some of them I think are joking, others are blind homers (which isn't a bad thing), but there ARE a few reasons why the Bills have been losing year after year. A primary one is the lack of quality DTs. Yes, you are correct.

 

Please show me one person on this board that doesn't think the lack of quality DTs has been a major reason why the Bills have been a poor team.

 

Posters can always pull out stats to prove anything. They can cite things such as the Colts drafting a lot of DBs, ignoring the fact that they only did so AFTER their lines were stocked, and they had a great running back, QB, and WR.

 

And they can also cite teams who have built their O-lines primarily from low round picks, UDFAs, and FAs. There is more than one way to building a football team.

 

The Bills are lucky to have Jason Peters. They even cut him in 2004. Now, they want him to play for peanuts.

 

Look, I won't disagree with you that Peters needs a salary increase, but claiming "they want him to play for peanuts" is a bit far from reality.

 

I won't call the addition of Stroud luck. That was a marvelous trade that Levy made, and I am far from being his biggest fan.

 

I believe Levy was already retired when this trade was made....

 

The Bills historically forego Lineman in the early rounds of the draft, and when they DID select a DT or OL in round 1 or 2, the last good pick was Ruben Brown. This is unacceptable.

 

Here is where you hit on the problem with the Bills - it has been the scouting department's evaluation of linemen.

 

Since Reuben Brown, the Bills have selected 8 players on the OL or DL in the first two rounds of the draft. Is the problem how often the Bills are picking these players, or their personnel evaluation in the draft and thus the players they selected?

[Chilly]

I do see your point, but I see his also (sans the formula). Please look at the 2006 draft. I have brought this up to Ramius many times. Do you see how late they selected? Now......please look at THIS 2006 draft. Do you see how early we selected. We gave away a first day pick to boot. Honestly, would you have been upset to have the players that TB selected? We could have had that AND extra picks.

 

Anyway, sure....we can pick apart his "formula," but is he really wrong?

 

I'd much, much rather have the draft that the Bills had in 2006 than the one the Bucs did. The Bills have produced many more quality players from that draft than the Bucs. That being said, I'd have no problems arguing that the Bills seriously dropped the ball by selecting McCargo (and especially trading up for him).

 

It's also an interesting example of precisely my point: The Bills traded up to get the DT, but it was a sub-par player, pointing to the problem in their player evaluations (rather than the positions that they are drafting).

[Ramius]

Because they could have drafted those guy who they desperately needed, AND had 2 more first day picks. Gerry, you don't deny this, do you?

 

So you are saying you'd rather have a draft where thusfar only 2 players have panned out as opposed to a draft where 5-6 players panned out? You'd rather have only 2 good players from a draft than 5-6 just because the 2 player are on the OL? Stop being silly. your-pro OL bias is making you say some downright goofy things.

[Bill from NYC]

Since Reuben Brown, the Bills have selected 8 players on the OL or DL in the first two rounds of the draft. Is the problem how often the Bills are picking these players, or their personnel evaluation in the draft and thus the players they selected?

 

How many were DTs? He does have a point imo.

[GG]

I'm wondering what supporting evidence you imply to back that statement. Just curious, because it's not really that cut and dried.

 

Juts my opinion, last year's record and my assessment of the quality of the three teams.

[Bill from NYC]

So you are saying you'd rather have a draft where thusfar only 2 players have panned out as opposed to a draft where 5-6 players panned out? You'd rather have only 2 good players from a draft than 5-6 just because the 2 player are on the OL? Stop being silly. your-pro OL bias is making you say some downright goofy things.

 

You are assuming that they couldn't have selected good players with 2 extra 2nd round picks (and more)? Why would you do that?

They could have still chosen our late round picks as well, including Butler, no?

[Dawgg]

If Edwards turns out to be a franchise QB, the Bills' draft strategy would be praised and Levy would go down as a great GM.

 

I agree on the importance and significance of QB... but Marv's first draft was very questionable given what was available.

 

BTW Biscuit, my boys Dvoracek and Daneal Manning had great games last night... still think McCargo is a better value?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Juts my opinion, last year's record and my assessment of the quality of the three teams.

Gotcha. And, thanks!

[GG]

Gotcha. And, thanks!

 

Actually, I came up with a supermostexcellent methodology to prove my point, but it's a Friday and I'm ready for my vacation, so I won't share it.

 

Thanks for asking though.

[Ramius]

You are assuming that they couldn't have selected good players with 2 extra 2nd round picks (and more)? Why would you do that?

They could have still chosen our late round picks as well, including Butler, no?

 

I'm simply pointing out the fact that you would rather have selected fewer good players in a draft as long as they were OL. Me, i'd rather draft 5-6 good players in a draft, because it is going to make my team better quicker.

 

As dumb as it sounds, the quickest way to have success is to draft good players, regardless of position. As for the 2006 draft, re-hashing it is an exercise in futility. Within every draft you can nicely pick and choose who the Bills should have selected with the benefit of hindsight.

 

Just a quick question, without the benefit of hindsight. Which tackle will turn out to be the best and whichwill turn out to be a bust in this years draft, between Albert, Williams, Otah, and Cherilus?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Actually, I came up with a supermostexcellent methodology to prove my point, but it's a Friday and I'm ready for my vacation, so I won't share it.

 

Thanks for asking though.