Another school system goes nuts

[John Adams]

If they dont like it they can find another job....they cant just teach the kids that are easy to teach.

 

I am absolutely sympathetic to your plight, and your comment above makes schools unbearable for the smart kids--because most teachers teach to the middle. It's one of the hard things about public schools--few kids get what they need.

[John from Riverside]

By the way.....I know that my last post was a very generalizing thing and I really dont like to do that....for those teachers out there that do work with the parents I apologize.

 

My daughter has had some really great teachers along the way......the one I loved the most was one that thought outside of the box and realize that my daughter has a really hard time focusing on things she finds really boring.

 

But she did realize that my daughter has a love for music and let her listen to her ipod while doing her homework....my daughter actually made honor roll that year.....hasnt made it since.

[Bill from NYC]

I could send my child to the local public school system. It's a pretty good one. But it's in the teach-to-the-test vein.

 

You will hate me for this, but I see some merit in structured tests. Imo, the alternative is giving all the power to the teachers and their union. Surprising comment from a proud trade unionist?

 

My daughter was the only National Merit student in her school district, one of the biggest on Long Island (and comparatively poor). She was also the only student in her graduating class admitted to an Ivy. She received $1,600 in scholarship money. $8,000 went to the daughter of the PTA President who attended an art school. Kids who had relatives on the School Board received more than double what she did. Perhaps I should have kissed ass as well, but I am not about that. I even thought about accusing them of racism, but I didn't do so because it really wasn't racist. It was pure nepotism.

 

Her PSAT and SAT got her into her school. Her grades were good, but they would never have been as high as the kids who were connected. Please believe me, there was no chance. If there was no SAT nor Regents Exams, she would not have been able to accomplish what she did.

 

Now, does a kid from inner Newark or Baltimore have the same shot as a kid from Scarsdale or Old Westbury on these tests? No. Is consideration due? I think so, to a degree. I couldn't afford the Kaplan Course and neither can many inner city kids.

 

I am sorry to ramble, but imo it would be a bad thing to eliminate standardized testing because to do so would give too much power to teachers. Jmo my friend.

[John Adams]

You will hate me for this, but I see some merit in structured tests. Imo, the alternative is giving all the power to the teachers and their union. Surprising comment from a proud trade unionist?

 

...

I am sorry to ramble, but imo it would be a bad thing to eliminate standardized testing because to do so would give too much power to teachers. Jmo my friend.

 

You read me wrong. I don't hate standardized tests. I don't think they tell a ton about future success, but they are an objective measure of some kind of intelligence and for that, they are OK. Further, SATs and PSATs are a different animal than the other types of standardized tests that test history, geography, English literature, etc.

 

My problem is teachers who "teach to" the test, instead of just teaching so that kids learn. When the test--and not the learning--becomes the driver, the system is flawed.

[Chilly]

You read me wrong. I don't hate standardized tests. I don't think they tell a ton about future success, but they are an objective measure of some kind of intelligence and for that, they are OK. Further, SATs and PSATs are a different animal than the other types of standardized tests that test history, geography, English literature, etc.

 

My problem is teachers who "teach to" the test, instead of just teaching so that kids learn. When the test--and not the learning--becomes the driver, the system is flawed.

 

To further illustrate this point (one I wholeheartedly agree with), in Florida, we had the FCAT that we had to pass in 10th grade in order to graduate high school (this was the year before they made it mandatory to take it every grade). In Texas, it is called the TAKS.

 

I was talking to a friend of mine about our high school experiences regarding standardized testing. At my high school, they taught way above and beyond what was required for the test. When it got near test time, we basically took a 2-week period to review everything we had learned and take practice tests. Since we had learned concepts above and beyond what was required for the test, the test itself was pretty darned easy. My high school also was one of the best high schools in the state, and consistently scored well on the test, due to this teaching style.

 

My friend in Texas, however, had a different experience. In many of his classes, they pretty much did nothing but teach to the test the entire year. They were constantly doing practice tests, and each homework assignment had practice questions for the test on it. His high school ended up touching many less subjects than mine did, and performed more poorly on the standardized testing than my school had (if you compare across the different tests).

 

I ended up having an easier time in some of my core college classes simply because I had learned the extra material that he did not.

 

Of course, that all evened out, and he ended up getting the better degree, but it was still a lot more work for him and more of a struggle than it should have been in the beginning of his college years. It could easily put someone in a hole that makes it very, very hard for them to catch up if they are going to go to college.

[KD in CA]

Because they HANG ONTO THE SCORES and dont pass them out in a timely manner......

 

And as far as I am concerned....TOUGH if a teacher doesnt want to have a phone conversation with me.....if my kid is struggling in their class and and I am making an effort to fix the problem...I EXPECT them to converse with me. There are plenty of parents out there that do nothing but B word that their kids are not cutting it and just blame the teacher with no effort on their part at all....or even worse they just dont care and let their kids fail.

 

If they dont like it they can find another job....they cant just teach the kids that are easy to teach.

 

Wow. So teachers are required to do their job according to your personal standards as opposed to the standards of their school district and principal? I'm really curious about what your profession is that allows you to understand better than the teachers what constitutes 'timely' feedback for students.

 

Yup, choosing to be a teacher means you must be at the beck and call of every hysterical parent who can't deal with raising their kids. I know this will never sink in for you, but teachers dread having your daughter in their class because of you.

[Steely Dan]

This is just another example of people laying blame elsewhere. There are MORE than enough solid public schools and public school teachers. "Public schools are horrible" are just another excuse for parents and children to blame the "system" rather than looking inward. Certainly some students want to achieve, and feel they are able to achieve more in a private school setting...But the opportunities for learning and growing as a person exist in most public schools out there. It's up to the students to engage those opportunities.

 

There is a safety issue in some public schools, and in that regard, you feel for the students and hope that they can afford a safer setting for school. However, for the most part, if a student wishes to challenge himself or herself, they will more often than not find the teachers and resources to accomodate them in the public school system.

 

A public school shouldn't be an excuse for a student's poor performance. Without a doubt, private schools CAN offer a better education, but it all comes down to the student in the end. Floating thru private school is the same as floating thru public school.

 

The problems with education are all on the parents if you ask me. Some parents are great with their kids and do everything they should be doing and most others think it's all the teachers job with their kid. While I was student teaching we sent out grade cards that had to be signed by parents and they could make comments on them. Some of them came back with the comment: "Why aren't you making sure my kid gets his homework done?"

 

The dangerous schools are also the parents fault. If they were stricter with their kids and monitored their activities more it wouldn't be a problem. So many people in this country believe it's society's job to raise their kids.

 

 

Why wouldn't your daughter have her own scores to share with you?

 

You might not want to hear this, but most teachers consider preparing their lesson plan, teaching their classes and grading the students' work to be a full time job. They really don't want to have to answer phone calls whenever 25 different parents find it convenient to call and ask how their kid did on today's quiz.

 

Exactly, once again it falls on the parents IMO.

[Ramius]

To further illustrate this point (one I wholeheartedly agree with), in Florida, we had the FCAT that we had to pass in 10th grade in order to graduate high school (this was the year before they made it mandatory to take it every grade). In Texas, it is called the TAKS.

 

I was talking to a friend of mine about our high school experiences regarding standardized testing. At my high school, they taught way above and beyond what was required for the test. When it got near test time, we basically took a 2-week period to review everything we had learned and take practice tests. Since we had learned concepts above and beyond what was required for the test, the test itself was pretty darned easy. My high school also was one of the best high schools in the state, and consistently scored well on the test, due to this teaching style.

 

My friend in Texas, however, had a different experience. In many of his classes, they pretty much did nothing but teach to the test the entire year. They were constantly doing practice tests, and each homework assignment had practice questions for the test on it. His high school ended up touching many less subjects than mine did, and performed more poorly on the standardized testing than my school had (if you compare across the different tests).

 

I ended up having an easier time in some of my core college classes simply because I had learned the extra material that he did not.

 

Of course, that all evened out, and he ended up getting the better degree, but it was still a lot more work for him and more of a struggle than it should have been in the beginning of his college years. It could easily put someone in a hole that makes it very, very hard for them to catch up if they are going to go to college.

 

I'm going to agree as well. Standardized testing is a necessary evil regarding the SAT, GRE, etc. But the standardized testing that goes on all throughout many states is ridiculous. Like you, when i was in HS, the only state standardized test i took was the Regents Exam at the end of every year. Our teachers taught the material, and like you said, we spent a couple of weeks toward the end of the year going over the regents exam, doing some practice problems, etc. Now when my bro went through our same HS 6 years later (he graduated in '05), they had already instilled a bunch of the "state exams" throughout the year. He told me plenty of times he got nothing out of half a year in most classes because the teachers had to teach to the test, instead of focusing on the subject matter. My girl's bro down here in florida had ot take the FCAT last year. His teachers basically shut it down in feb and spent march and april focusing on the FCAT tests and not the topics. Education is in a sad state of affairs.

 

Even mroe ridiculous is the mandate that all students must be forced ot take these standardized tests. My mom is a special ed teacher in buffalo, and hates the fact that her kids have to take standardized tests. She teacher elementary and focuses on teaching things that the kids can learn and getting them to make progress and instilling self-confidence. Her kids are old enough to realize that they "arent as smart as" other kids, so the biggest fight is just giving them the self-confidence that they are smart and can learn lots of things. And every year, her kids are forced to take the same standardized tests as everyone else where they usually struggle mightily. You cant even begin to imagine the setbacks this can cause.

[agilen]

My daughter has had some really great teachers along the way......the one I loved the most was one that thought outside of the box and realize that my daughter has a really hard time focusing on things she finds really boring.

 

But she did realize that my daughter has a love for music and let her listen to her ipod while doing her homework....my daughter actually made honor roll that year.....hasnt made it since.

 

Don't mean to nitpick, but I think this may be saying something about the state of education....

 

How is it that the teacher had a say in how your daughter did her homework? Are kids doing their homework in class these days? I'm by no means an old guy (graduated HS under 10 years ago), but homework was done....at home. Can you clarify what you meant here?

[John from Riverside]

Don't mean to nitpick, but I think this may be saying something about the state of education....

 

How is it that the teacher had a say in how your daughter did her homework? Are kids doing their homework in class these days? I'm by no means an old guy (graduated HS under 10 years ago), but homework was done....at home. Can you clarify what you meant here?

 

Not "homework" actually but work in class. We as parents are responsible that homework gets done. I guess I am talking about in class assignments.

 

In my daughters case she has time with tutors in the after school program. If there is work to be done past that then its up to the kitchen table......tv's turned off, music on, a snack in hand, get to work dont even think about asking to do anything else till homeowork is done.

[John from Riverside]

The problems with education are all on the parents if you ask me. Some parents are great with their kids and do everything they should be doing and most others think it's all the teachers job with their kid. While I was student teaching we sent out grade cards that had to be signed by parents and they could make comments on them. Some of them came back with the comment: "Why aren't you making sure my kid gets his homework done?"

 

The dangerous schools are also the parents fault. If they were stricter with their kids and monitored their activities more it wouldn't be a problem. So many people in this country believe it's society's job to raise their kids.

 

 

 

 

Exactly, once again it falls on the parents IMO.

 

That is just as bad a generalization as the one I put forth and apologized for earlier in this thread. The problems do NOT all come down on the parents and there is more that can be done on the education side.

 

Here is a for instance. In our towns school system they have this on line thing called EDLINE. The High school makes ever teacher use it and when teachers are grading work they have to enter the scores into this program. It in turn sends the parents through email an update every time a change is made in a class so you can in a pretty timely manner what scores the kids got...and what their current GPA is so the parent can see if the it is going up and down (this is especially important for my high school son because he has to make sure his GPA is up to play sports and thinking on to college) it also shows what assignments are coming up and when they are due. A parent (like me....who is out of the house working or commuting to work a lot of the day) can print that off, take it home, and make sure everything is ready to go.

 

That same EDLINE program is available at my daughters school. Only 2 of her teachers even use it and the rest wont and those same teachers that are noncompliant are the same ones I have to pry information out of and usually that info is to late to do anything about because they are on to the next assignment.

 

Not all of the teachers are doing everything that can do. There was a big thing last year about a lot of parents (the ones like me that actually CARE) were having the exact same problem.

[agilen]

Not "homework" actually but work in class. We as parents are responsible that homework gets done. I guess I am talking about in class assignments.

 

In my daughters case she has time with tutors in the after school program. If there is work to be done past that then its up to the kitchen table......tv's turned off, music on, a snack in hand, get to work dont even think about asking to do anything else till homeowork is done.

 

Ah, gotcha. In that case....I don't see any problem at all with listening to music while working. In the professional world, she'll probably have a job where that is fine (and even helpful in drowning out office noise). Sometimes I wish schools did a better job of developing skills instead of developing kids abilities to follow orders...

[John from Riverside]

Ah, gotcha. In that case....I don't see any problem at all with listening to music while working. In the professional world, she'll probably have a job where that is fine (and even helpful in drowning out office noise). Sometimes I wish schools did a better job of developing skills instead of developing kids abilities to follow orders...

 

This is why I really loved that teacher she knew how to think outside the box. To be honest though I think it really was that she was just a innovative outstanding teacher that actually personally liked my daugher (not in a favoritism kind of way but you get what I mean) I still remember the honor roll ceremony that we went to that Ashlee got the award (my son got them every year.....got to the point where we couldn't go to all of them but this was the ONLY one my daughter ever received) I remember how proud she was listening to the kind words the teacher had to say about her.

 

Then the following year....and from that year on....she was just a number to her teachers. The only time that changed was when my daughter started getting some media exposure in the community because of her singing exploits but by that time my daughter had really soured on schoolwork and we really had to push her. I still remember the conversation I had with the principle last year where I was just fed up with one of her teachers giving her failing grade after failing grade for something she did not do....didn't use Edline....was hard to get ahold of.....couldnt control his class as there was a group of kids who kept bothering everybody else...etc.

 

We are in the meeting and the first thing the Principle says is "Oh I just loved your daughters last CD....is she going to do the school talent show?"

 

Lady....we are here because my daughter is failing the grade.......not because she can sing.

[ExiledInIllinois]

This is why I really loved that teacher she knew how to think outside the box. To be honest though I think it really was that she was just a innovative outstanding teacher that actually personally liked my daugher (not in a favoritism kind of way but you get what I mean) I still remember the honor roll ceremony that we went to that Ashlee got the award (my son got them every year.....got to the point where we couldn't go to all of them but this was the ONLY one my daughter ever received) I remember how proud she was listening to the kind words the teacher had to say about her.

 

Then the following year....and from that year on....she was just a number to her teachers. The only time that changed was when my daughter started getting some media exposure in the community because of her singing exploits but by that time my daughter had really soured on schoolwork and we really had to push her. I still remember the conversation I had with the principle last year where I was just fed up with one of her teachers giving her failing grade after failing grade for something she did not do....didn't use Edline....was hard to get ahold of.....couldnt control his class as there was a group of kids who kept bothering everybody else...etc.

 

We are in the meeting and the first thing the Principle says is "Oh I just loved your daughters last CD....is she going to do the school talent show?"

 

Lady....we are here because my daughter is failing the grade.......not because she can sing.

 

Not trying to be controversial.... But John... Since your daughter loves music and sings... Is it really prudent that she have the music on during her studies?

 

What I am saying... Maybe it is distracting her?... It is her first love (music).

 

Now don't get me wrong... I am open to all kinds of this stuff... I am just trying to be objective, by no means is this meant to be a punishment.

[Steely Dan]

That is just as bad a generalization as the one I put forth and apologized for earlier in this thread. The problems do NOT all come down on the parents and there is more that can be done on the education side.

 

Here is a for instance. In our towns school system they have this on line thing called EDLINE. The High school makes ever teacher use it and when teachers are grading work they have to enter the scores into this program. It in turn sends the parents through email an update every time a change is made in a class so you can in a pretty timely manner what scores the kids got...and what their current GPA is so the parent can see if the it is going up and down (this is especially important for my high school son because he has to make sure his GPA is up to play sports and thinking on to college) it also shows what assignments are coming up and when they are due. A parent (like me....who is out of the house working or commuting to work a lot of the day) can print that off, take it home, and make sure everything is ready to go.

 

That same EDLINE program is available at my daughters school. Only 2 of her teachers even use it and the rest wont and those same teachers that are noncompliant are the same ones I have to pry information out of and usually that info is to late to do anything about because they are on to the next assignment.

 

Not all of the teachers are doing everything that can do. There was a big thing last year about a lot of parents (the ones like me that actually CARE) were having the exact same problem.

 

Why do you believe it's the teachers responsibility to keep you informed about your kids grades via the internet? It's helpful but parents got along for decades without it. Did you think of asking your kids to bring home all their graded work and show it to you? You can check with teachers periodically to make sure they are doing well which is a good thing but it's not their job to keep you informed of your kids grades all the time. That's your job. If there is a huge dropoff in your kids work or behavior at school they should keep you informed but the onus is on you.

[John from Riverside]

Why do you believe it's the teachers responsibility to keep you informed about your kids grades via the internet? It's helpful but parents got along for decades without it. Did you think of asking your kids to bring home all their graded work and show it to you? You can check with teachers periodically to make sure they are doing well which is a good thing but it's not their job to keep you informed of your kids grades all the time. That's your job. If there is a huge dropoff in your kids work or behavior at school they should keep you informed but the onus is on you.

 

Oh boy....big disconnect here.....

 

- The kids are not GETTING their papers and scores in a timely manner

 

- Yes it IS their job to keep parents informed of their grades in some way, shape, or form....especially when all they do is B word about lack of parent participation, involvement, and reenforcement from home.

 

- Its my job to keep myself informed of the childrens grades....well...that great. How do you suggest I do that that when I cant get that information from the kid because it is not given to them? I HAVE TO GO TO THE TEACHER. And no...periodic checks dont work when you have a student who is failing the class. More attention is needed. Big drop off in behavior...they should keep me informed....but the onus is on me.....what?

 

- And yes....since they cannot answer so many parents all the time they need to take advantage of the internet (this revolutionary tool) to post information so they dont have to talk to parents on the phone about it constantly. I always go to the Edline before I bother the teacher.

 

Once again....this has proven to be effective in High School......so it does work.

 

Man talk about letting the teacher off the hook.

[John from Riverside]

Not trying to be controversial.... But John... Since your daughter loves music and sings... Is it really prudent that she have the music on during her studies?

 

What I am saying... Maybe it is distracting her?... It is her first love (music).

 

Now don't get me wrong... I am open to all kinds of this stuff... I am just trying to be objective, by no means is this meant to be a punishment.

 

Exiled,

 

I understand what you are saying. The only way I can describe it is it puts her in a focused "environment" She just seems to be able to think better, focus more.

 

It works at home to....dont ask me why but it does.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Exiled,

 

I understand what you are saying. The only way I can describe it is it puts her in a focused "environment" She just seems to be able to think better, focus more.

 

It works at home to....dont ask me why but it does.

 

[Steely Dan]

Oh boy....big disconnect here.....

 

- The kids are not GETTING their papers and scores in a timely manner

 

- Yes it IS their job to keep parents informed of their grades in some way, shape, or form....especially when all they do is B word about lack of parent participation, involvement, and reenforcement from home.

 

- Its my job to keep myself informed of the childrens grades....well...that great. How do you suggest I do that that when I cant get that information from the kid because it is not given to them? I HAVE TO GO TO THE TEACHER. And no...periodic checks dont work when you have a student who is failing the class. More attention is needed. Big drop off in behavior...they should keep me informed....but the onus is on me.....what?

 

- And yes....since they cannot answer so many parents all the time they need to take advantage of the internet (this revolutionary tool) to post information so they dont have to talk to parents on the phone about it constantly. I always go to the Edline before I bother the teacher.

 

Once again....this has proven to be effective in High School......so it does work.

 

Man talk about letting the teacher off the hook.

 

I'm assuming your kids get their papers and tests back with grades on them. If I'm wrong I apologize but if they do I don't understand why you need the teachers to let you know grades when you can get the papers from your kids yourself.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Phuck... I made it through HS and college with minimal parent involvement... You just got good grades... It was expected... You didn't and then you had parent involvement! NO THANKS! Usually pulled high B's and A's with a 91 average...

 

That's probably why I am a lowly lock and dam operator.

 

Sh$t!