The "value" of a college degree

[John Adams]

I have a buddy who is a social worker, and I have huge respect for him because literally nobody wants his job. It's much more of a calling. Every time we talk politics, his basic understanding of how things work either doesn't exist or is FUBAR.

 

You've been posting here long enough for us to understand. It's OK. You can fess up to who your "buddy" really is.

[TPS]

I see some value in the liberal arts education but 4 years at 20-40K/year? That's completely unnecessary. Why can't I just take a Princeton class on Chaucer from Dr. Smartypants for a grand. He can just record himself (the best example of this are the Feynman lectures in physics). I get all the value of having a great professor at a fraction of the cost. Or better, I can just read Chaucer and some essays about him online. Then participate in an online discussion group. Do I really need to attend college to learn critical thinking? And do I need 4 years? Of course not. That's a tired argument that I hear all the time about the value of a degree.

 

I am sure many CEOS are liberal arts majors....[gotta run...finish this thought later]

Go back to the part where I said the right skills don't get taught at 90% of k-12 institutions. People like you, I"M assuming, can learn most things on your own. Distance ed works for people who are self-motivated. However, the majority of students that attend college need their "hands held." My experience is that most students don't know how to write a research paper; they lack critical assessment skills; etc. So, maybe YOU don't need to attend college to learn how to think critically, but a hell of a lot of people in this country do. Until we fix education at the k-12 level, the majority of college kids will need to attend this old fashion institution to learn the skills necessary for them to compete...

[OCinBuffalo]

Phase II?

 

You of all people should know what that means. Damn Linux kids! Get off my lawn! Don't give me a hard time, I'm still angry about that one, and it was years ago.

[OCinBuffalo]

No wonder he listens to you. Considering a mater's degree can't be that high (or tough) of a degree

 

Any comment on the content wise-guy?

[OCinBuffalo]

You've been posting here long enough for us to understand. It's OK. You can fess up to who your "buddy" really is.

Teehee! You know what I really do and I can't help but notice you never replied to my health care post a few months back. No big deal. All I can say is you'll being seeing it, right in front of you, soon enough. I'd rather show than tell.

[OCinBuffalo]

Go back to the part where I said the right skills don't get taught at 90% of k-12 institutions. People like you, I"M assuming, can learn most things on your own. Distance ed works for people who are self-motivated. However, the majority of students that attend college need their "hands held." My experience is that most students don't know how to write a research paper; they lack critical assessment skills; etc. So, maybe YOU don't need to attend college to learn how to think critically, but a hell of a lot of people in this country do. Until we fix education at the k-12 level, the majority of college kids will need to attend this old fashion institution to learn the skills necessary for them to compete...

What you are referring to is only going be exacerbated by the fact that our world is becoming more and more abstracted every day. If educators don't start doing a better job of teaching abstract thinking skills, we are going to be in real trouble. Abstraction isn't easily defined as simply as: math(but you probably know that, huh). We need pre-K work on this, as well as k-6 reinforcement. By the time kids get to college today, or by the time it's time to work(and God forbid they get a project manager like I was, or the ones I had), it's already too late. I think a focus on abstract thinking will help us do better in the kind of outcomes we need, math being only one of them, going forward.

 

Critical thinking skills? HA! You have to be kidding me thinking that they will emphasize those over individual, and now group, self-esteem. Most of the silly posts on this board demonstrate the fact that not enough people were taught the ability to think critically. Critical thinking is on the "endangered concepts" list. Pretty soon we will have people who can't tell the difference between things sucking and being good.

 

Used car-salesman all over the world can't wait: a crappy, 1979 K-car will suddenly be "good", because it's all a matter of "perspective" and "some people like crappy cars, we need to be tolerant of their views, and of the people who sell crappy cars, because we don't want to hurt their self-esteem".

 

The very fact that it has changed from "critical thinking" to "critical assessment" tells us all we need to know. The implication of changing the wording, of course, is that using the word "thinking" means that: if you aren't thinking critically you aren't thinking at all. Unfortunately, that's exactly correct. They shouldn't be getting away from that point by trying to use the word "assessment" instead. As though: some days it's ok to be an idiot, depending on your "assessment", as long as you aren't hurting people's feelings. These days if you can't apply critical thinking you are almost certain to be duped by just about everybody who tries.

 

If critical thinking isn't a problem: why have so many people, in such a short period of time, automatically accepted that Global Warming is all man's fault, we can fix it, and that growing corn or carbon credits are viable solutions?

 

It's only going to get worse, because in our daily lives we meet 100 times the # of people that our grandparents met, whether its in person or on the internet.

 

And, of course, this is all a part of "lowering the expectations" in preparation for socialism. You can't convince people socialism is a good idea, until to make them all equal talent-wise. So, they need to dumb some of us down, and especially get rid of Gifted & Talented class.

[/dev/null]

You of all people should know what that means. Damn Linux kids! Get off my lawn! Don't give me a hard time, I'm still angry about that one, and it was years ago.

 

Phase I: Collect Underpants

Phase II:

Phase III: Profit

 

What's phase II again?

[OCinBuffalo]

Phase I: Collect Underpants

Phase II:

Phase III: Profit

 

What's phase II again?

Ask Al Gore, I'm sure he knows.

[/dev/null]

Ask Al Gore, I'm sure he knows.

 

Phase II = Catch Manbearpig?

[John Adams]

Teehee! You know what I really do and I can't help but notice you never replied to my health care post a few months back. No big deal. All I can say is you'll being seeing it, right in front of you, soon enough. I'd rather show than tell.

 

You may find this hard to believe but I don't reply to every post and I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I also usually don't make it far into your 7 paragraph posts before I roll my eyes and move on.

[OCinBuffalo]

You may find this hard to believe but I don't reply to every post and I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I also usually don't make it far into your 7 paragraph posts before I roll my eyes and move on.

 

I mistook you for DC_Tom. My mistake. Although I can't imagine how that happened, Mr. "I-have-my-own-blog-where-I-write-posts-about-my-young- daughter's-critique-of-the-artwork-in-downtown-philly" guy. Rolling eyes indeed. Hey, I liked it when I read it the other day, but please, spare us your base, "superiority" front. Apparently you believe "It's ok when I do it", as evidenced by your post above. Not quite 7 paras, but still, are you sure you want to be calling me kettle there pot? You wouldn't be a lawyer by any chance would you?

 

I know I write long some days(EDIT: Most Days ), and I appreciate everyone's patience when I'm trying to complete a thought. I have learned that all too often I will have to end up writing it all in a thread anyway, might as well get it out in one contiguous post. Hell sometimes I write the whole thing out and dole it out paragraph by paragraph, and see if I guessed right about the dopey responses beforehand. This was fun when Molson was around.

[Adam]

We have to make sure every child is prepared for college. We also need to make sure they get good grades once there, even if they aren't earned. If we don't have a good educational system, we can make it look like we do

[Wacka]

No we don't, because not everyone should go to college. Some people are just too stupid.

 

My sister was on a Grand Jury and they had a case where a guy stole checks and got two women from WV to cache them saying by saying they were from his aunt. The women were brought back to Buffalo and showed up in stretch pants, and t-shirts- I guess they dressed up ! After they heard the case, someone asked teh DA why they didn't go aftre the women as accessories. He replied "They're just that stupid."

[Adam]

No we don't, because not everyone should go to college. Some people are just too stupid.

 

My sister was on a Grand Jury and they had a case where a guy stole checks and got two women from WV to cache them saying by saying they were from his aunt. The women were brought back to Buffalo and showed up in stretch pants, and t-shirts- I guess they dressed up ! After they heard the case, someone asked teh DA why they didn't go aftre the women as accessories. He replied "They're just that stupid."

I was being sarcastic about the no child left behind garbage. And not going to college doesn't really translate to stupid. I know a lot of people who didn't go to college that build computers. Many probably build cars and probably other things that we depend on.

 

Colleges have become oversaturated and degrees rendered meaningless. There is such a demand for teachers because of this that anyone can do it. Quality has gone way down- can't fail anyone, it might make them feel bad and they may be able to sue for lost earning capacity.

 

What a mess we have become. I have been called unpatriotic by some for saying that- which is nuts.

[olivier in france]

We have to make sure every child is prepared for college. We also need to make sure they get good grades once there, even if they aren't earned. If we don't have a good educational system, we can make it look like we do

 

We have had about the same thing in France... whith the acclaimed "goal" to have 80% of the kids going to college. Well independant studies have shown that the level of the kids finishing high school now is about the level of 10th grade kids 20 years ago and 9th grade kids 50 years ago....

[olivier in france]

And, of course, this is all a part of "lowering the expectations" in preparation for socialism. You can't convince people socialism is a good idea, until to make them all equal talent-wise. So, they need to dumb some of us down, and especially get rid of Gifted & Talented class.

 

How true is that!!

 

The lack of critical skill is one thing, the abolute desert in basic education of geography, history and economics of the education system is an other.

 

The mass brain washing in economics, evironmental and politics matters in our modern societies is so easy when you have kids finishing high school that can not put the Continents on a world map or have no idea of the difference between a price and a cost...

[OCinBuffalo]

We have had about the same thing in France... whith the acclaimed "goal" to have 80% of the kids going to college. Well independant studies have shown that the level of the kids finishing high school now is about the level of 10th grade kids 20 years ago and 9th grade kids 50 years ago....

Um, yeah, but I thought that the riots you had might have finally awakened your people? Have they? You need to integrate your people and teach them how France does things downtown.

 

Perhaps they don't teach this in France anymore, but, how in the F did you produce Napoleon Bonaparte, Rousseau, Curie, and Le Clerk all in the same country?(Such a shame that there hasn't been a name like that in so long...why the F are we waiting? Jean Claude Van Damme doesn't do the job) We don't hate France, we hate that you have become lazy and haven't inspired us, or the rest of the world, in a long damn time. You guys have the ultimate culture to spawn new ideas, with the discipline of respecting history, at the same time.

 

That list of people alone proves that you guys invented the concept of diversity of thought, and the concept of intellectual responsibility, and about 50 other philosophical and scientific tenets we all live by today. How sad is it that you continue to allow France, of all the countries in the world, to be limited by socialist mediocrity and/or by phony, guallist stupidity? Or by both, at the same time?

 

Your country lost your ability to lead the rest of us, because you de-emphasized your God-given ability to lead the rest of us(Joan of Arc, 3 Musketeers?)...it's as simple as that. You don't lead by showing up at the board room and saying "who is ready to kiss my sorry ass because I am French, and here's what we did 200 years ago, and Du Gaulle said...."

 

You lead the way France used to = "we French have better ideas, we can prove it, and here's our work = deal with it." Where do you think the US learned that from? Who invented the concept of modern artillery for Pete's sake? Why is artillery a French word? Why do you have a phony commission to make up French words for things, instead of doing what you did for a 1000 years and define the word in the first place?

 

This world has learned many, many things from France. But you haven't been teaching us much lately. It's time to get off the bench and back into the game. We understand that you lead for 100s of years and suffered for it. Ok, break time is over. You've had your 70 years off. Let's go already, where the F is my modern day Rousseau...because we could certainly use him/her right now.

[/dev/null]

why the F are we waiting? Jean Claude Van Damme doesn't do the job

 

Plus he's Belgian, not French

[olivier in france]

LOT Of things to answer...

Um, yeah, but I thought that the riots you had might have finally awakened your people? Have they? You need to integrate your people and teach them how France does things downtown.

 

 

The riots? you're still on this?! France has much bigger issues than a few thousands young unemployed burning their own cars to pass time. Looks like those "riots " have been used ad nauseam by the french hating american conservative media... Once again in that category (urban violence) France is not in the same league than the US. French streets are a lot safer than yours sorry. The US is doing a lot better than France in a lot of things but not there.

 

Perhaps they don't teach this in France anymore, but, how in the F did you produce Napoleon Bonaparte, Rousseau, Curie, and Le Clerk all in the same country?

 

Who the hell is Le Clerk?

 

(Such a shame that there hasn't been a name like that in so long...why the F are we waiting? Jean Claude Van Damme doesn't do the job)

 

Van Damme? He's from Belgium.

 

We don't hate France, we hate that you have become lazy and haven't inspired us, or the rest of the world, in a long damn time. You guys have the ultimate culture to spawn new ideas, with the discipline of respecting history, at the same time.

 

Thanks. What's funny is that you'll find a lot of frenchmen who 'll use the exact same words to talk about the USA....

 

That list of people alone proves that you guys invented the concept of diversity of thought, and the concept of intellectual responsibility, and about 50 other philosophical and scientific tenets we all live by today. How sad is it that you continue to allow France, of all the countries in the world, to be limited by socialist mediocrity and/or by phony, guallist stupidity? Or by both, at the same time?

 

Socialist mediocrity. Man you could not have chosen better words to describe France in two words! I'd like to be able to answer that question... But i truly can't. When i think about the state of France i get hopeless... But the root of the problem is there: Since 1958 the Gaullist and Socialist parties have ruled the country non stop (with the exception of the Giscard-Barre years from 74 to 78) excluding and marginalising any other way of thinking...

 

Your country lost your ability to lead the rest of us, because you de-emphasized your God-given ability to lead the rest of us(Joan of Arc, 3 Musketeers?)...it's as simple as that. You don't lead by showing up at the board room and saying "who is ready to kiss my sorry ass because I am French, and here's what we did 200 years ago, and Du Gaulle said...."

 

France is basically a grumpy old man. France does not want to lead anymore. France is retired.

 

You lead the way France used to = "we French have better ideas, we can prove it, and here's our work = deal with it." Where do you think the US learned that from? Who invented the concept of modern artillery for Pete's sake? Why is artillery a French word? Why do you have a phony commission to make up French words for things, instead of doing what you did for a 1000 years and define the word in the first place?

 

He why do you think frenchmen hate so much the US?!! It's like seeing a younger version of you coming into the neighborood, starting to wear the same clothes you used to wear, talking the same way, having the same car , just a bigger version then he starts to steal your friends, then he takes your wife and kids... You see that all the time on the Discovery Channel, you know the young proud lion who takes over the herd and the females. France is that old lion alone under the tree waiting for death to come, watching the new master of the herd having fun with his former wives!

 

This world has learned many, many things from France. But you haven't been teaching us much lately. It's time to get off the bench and back into the game. We understand that you lead for 100s of years and suffered for it. Ok, break time is over. You've had your 70 years off. Let's go already, where the F is my modern day Rousseau...because we could certainly use him/her right now.

 

Don't expect anything from France my friend. Not the way frenchmen are educated.

[Chef Jim]

We have to make sure every child is prepared for college. We also need to make sure they get good grades once there, even if they aren't earned. If we don't have a good educational system, we can make it look like we do

 

Whose main responsibility is it to prepare children for success in their future?