The "value" of a college degree

[John Adams]

If you've got teenage children, avert your eyes. If you're paying for a college education right now, skip this post. If you're in the process of paying off student loans (like Abigail and me), here's a how-to page just for you. After much reflection, I've reached a conclusion best-articulated in a Wall Street Journal Editorial this week: College is bull sh--. You'll need a subscription to view the whole thing but I'll book report it for you.

 

Charles Murray sums up his Opinion nicely:

 

First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."

 

Instead of just leveling a criticism of the uselessness of the BA, 2/3s of which fall into the categories "criminal justice, social work, public administration and the many separate majors under the headings of business, computer science and education," he proposes a solution: competency exams. He uses the CPA exam as the model. It's a 14 hour exam that comprehensively covers a range of topics, insuring that the person passing it has some measure of expertise in the subject.

 

It's a good thought. As a member of the legal profession, I'm certain I could have passed the Bar after a year of law classes, and would not have needed any of my undergraduate classes. Not only could I have saved money, I would not have wasted time in loads of sh-- classes. (I was an engineering undergrad, and even in the sciences, I had lots of useless classes.)

 

I would only append to Mr. Murray's proposition an apprenticeship model. The competency exam measures a person's capacity to do a job; the apprenticeship measures their desire to do it (ever met a lawyer who likes their job? Me either; maybe an apprenticeship would weed the profession.). The average college BA measures neither of these.

 

PS. Here's a related speech about the state of education and how it kills creativity, by Ken Robinson.

 

[KD in CA]

While I agree that most of the 'liberal arts' degrees awarded are completely useless and a waste of time (I knew a lot of philosophy and poli-sci majors whose unstated major was smoking pot), as someone who has actually passed the CPA exam I can say that I learned all the basic accounting concepts in college. I learned how business works and the practical application of accounting theory once I got a job. Now certainly I could have just taken the necessary accounting and associated business courses (marketing strategy, business law, etc) in two years and cut my college bill in half. However I do think there is some value in being able to study history, philosophy and other thing that I would never really use.

 

Plus, the chicks were hot.

[John Adams]

The higher education system is out to create one thing: college professors.

[justnzane]

PS. Here's a related speech about the state of education and how it kills creativity, by Ken Robinson.

 

Actually, I agree with this whole post. Especially this youtube link. As a teacher, I have to restrict my creativity, because the administrators I work under have no clue as far the utilization of technology into the classroom. People are afraid of what they don't understand, and as long as they close their eyes to all other views, they reject the creativity of the world.

[Alaska Darin]

It's great to know the Educational Apparatus is afraid of "change". That's genius.

 

The best part is the vast majority of them are liberals.

[John Adams]

Actually, I agree with this whole post. Especially this youtube link. As a teacher, I have to restrict my creativity, because the administrators I work under have no clue as far the utilization of technology into the classroom. People are afraid of what they don't understand, and as long as they close their eyes to all other views, they reject the creativity of the world.

 

 

That's why I would live in a cardboard box to send my kid to a private school of my choosing.

[justnzane]

That's why I would live in a cardboard box to send my kid to a private school of my choosing.

This is everywhere... especially with the big push for core subject only education. My opinion is that the student should learn a diverse amount of matter as in the long run, it allows the student to have more a diverse set of skills for the real world.

[Alaska Darin]

This is everywhere... especially with the big push for core subject only education. My opinion is that the student should learn a diverse amount of matter as in the long run, it allows the student to have more a diverse set of skills for the real world.

Welcome to the reason I hated school.

[olivier in france]

Welcome to the reason I hated school.

 

 

We knew that already Darin!!

 

 

More seriously that issue is an old one with no easy answer... Is learning a job the only goal of college ? Should public money be used for matters that are not linked to a future professionnal use? What's the real goal of the public educationnal system? Does it educate citizens, consumers, workers or human beings?

Frankly i don't know... It's an important issue that should be at the center of public debate.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I wish I'd gotten started in my current career rather than going to college. I'd be in a whole lot better shape. Real life is a much better classroom than any college.

[John Adams]

I wish I'd gotten started in my current career rather than going to college. I'd be in a whole lot better shape. Real life is a much better classroom than any college.

 

I worked with a guy who was the supervisor of a 300 million dollar construction project. He wasn't a college graduate and thus made about 120K/year. The 3rd year project engineer made 90K. In 3-4 more years, the project engineer will make more than the guy who manages 150 people. There are a million examples of idiocy like this.

[Joe Miner]

It's great to know the Educational Apparatus is afraid of "change". That's genius.

 

The best part is the vast majority of them are liberals.

 

You want to see a teacher freak out from an idea? Ask them how they would feel about privatizing education.

 

After you explain it to them, you'll be surprised how quickly and vehemently they reject it.

[TPS]

If you've got teenage children, avert your eyes. If you're paying for a college education right now, skip this post. If you're in the process of paying off student loans (like Abigail and me), here's a how-to page just for you. After much reflection, I've reached a conclusion best-articulated in a Wall Street Journal Editorial this week: College is bull sh--. You'll need a subscription to view the whole thing but I'll book report it for you.

 

Charles Murray sums up his Opinion nicely:

 

 

 

Instead of just leveling a criticism of the uselessness of the BA, 2/3s of which fall into the categories "criminal justice, social work, public administration and the many separate majors under the headings of business, computer science and education," he proposes a solution: competency exams. He uses the CPA exam as the model. It's a 14 hour exam that comprehensively covers a range of topics, insuring that the person passing it has some measure of expertise in the subject.

 

It's a good thought. As a member of the legal profession, I'm certain I could have passed the Bar after a year of law classes, and would not have needed any of my undergraduate classes. Not only could I have saved money, I would not have wasted time in loads of sh-- classes. (I was an engineering undergrad, and even in the sciences, I had lots of useless classes.)

 

I would only append to Mr. Murray's proposition an apprenticeship model. The competency exam measures a person's capacity to do a job; the apprenticeship measures their desire to do it (ever met a lawyer who likes their job? Me either; maybe an apprenticeship would weed the profession.). The average college BA measures neither of these.

 

PS. Here's a related speech about the state of education and how it kills creativity, by Ken Robinson.

 

 

First, my bias up front, I teach in HE at a state college. Your post is much like most of what is posted here--it starts with the bias of the presenter. Yes, higher ed needs to change, but the criticism that the right-wing mr murray levels misses the point on what a college education is about. It's not about providing a technical skill that can be "mastered" by some test. If you want that, go to Bryant & Stratton. A college education, a LIBERAL ARTS college education, is about teaching critical thinking skills that, for the most part, don't get taught at 90% of K-12 institutions in America. Yes, HE is over-burdened with "core requirements", and much of that has to do with the poor education that happens in K-12--we have become remedial teachers for HS to large extent.

 

My belief is that we need to minimize the GenEd core courses, and then allow students to do more things that do matter to their future. Corporate America doesn't want (or need) people who have a degree in some specialized technical skill (ok, they need accountants), but they do want people who know how to research topics, critically assess issues, communicate, collaborate, and continually try to learn (a short list). What specific degree teaches that? None. An overall LIBERAL ARTS education should focus on these skills, and for the most part does. If I were king, I would minimize the core requirements to about 6-8 courses (out of the total of 40 requred), then stongly suggest students do double majors, minors, create their own second majors from multi-disciplines, spend a semester abroad, etc.

 

I am in the lion's den. Yes, there are a lot of people who are afraid of change, and are in this because they are protected, but there are just as many, if not more, people who continually try to keep up with the latest in their disciplines, technology, etc., who try to provide students with the skills--not some techinical job--necessary to compete in the 21st C. You have to be able to quickly adapt to a radically changing economic environment, and teaching a "competency" doesn't teach you the skills necessary to adapt and succeed in this environment.

 

So yes, we need to change; but, we we should continue to teach the "skills" that are permanent, not some bull sh-- that you memorize to pass some bull sh-- test. And majors like history, english, philosophy, etc. teach these skills. How many CEOs do you think got thier undergraduate degree in business?

[John Adams]

First, my bias up front, I teach in HE at a state college. Your post is much like most of what is posted here--it starts with the bias of the presenter. Yes, higher ed needs to change, but the criticism that the right-wing mr murray levels misses the point on what a college education is about. It's not about providing a technical skill that can be "mastered" by some test. If you want that, go to Bryant & Stratton. A college education, a LIBERAL ARTS college education, is about teaching critical thinking skills that, for the most part, don't get taught at 90% of K-12 institutions in America. Yes, HE is over-burdened with "core requirements", and much of that has to do with the poor education that happens in K-12--we have become remedial teachers for HS to large extent.

 

...

So yes, we need to change; but, we we should continue to teach the "skills" that are permanent, not some bull sh-- that you memorize to pass some bull sh-- test. And majors like history, english, philosophy, etc. teach these skills. How many CEOs do you think got thier undergraduate degree in business?

 

I see some value in the liberal arts education but 4 years at 20-40K/year? That's completely unnecessary. Why can't I just take a Princeton class on Chaucer from Dr. Smartypants for a grand. He can just record himself (the best example of this are the Feynman lectures in physics). I get all the value of having a great professor at a fraction of the cost. Or better, I can just read Chaucer and some essays about him online. Then participate in an online discussion group. Do I really need to attend college to learn critical thinking? And do I need 4 years? Of course not. That's a tired argument that I hear all the time about the value of a degree.

 

I am sure many CEOS are liberal arts majors....[gotta run...finish this thought later]

[OCinBuffalo]

I have been paying attention to this part of the board for about 3 years now. One thing is clear: there are a whole lot of people who have never taken accounting 1+2, economics (micro and macro), finance, and certainly not statistics. These skill sets allow one to see problems in terms of the disciplines learned, and at the very least the baseline expectations of how different parts of the government and country interact. This is why we see posts, over and over, that are so far and away removed from starting with the real definition of the problem.

 

These basic classes allow one to understand how things work. They represent the instruction manual for America. If all you have is poly-sci degree, or similar social science stuff, you aren't going to understand how things actually work, and you are going to be eternally doomed to falling for whatever partisan crap you get fed from whichever either side of the aisle you pay your attention. Make no mistake, I'm not saying people need to have to get this information from college. I am saying that you need to do the same amount of work/research that would be done in a college class, in order to fully understand these concepts--->as in, there's a reason Accounting and Economics require a year each to get the basics down.

 

You don't have to go to college, but you do have to do the work that gets you the understanding of how business/America works. Otherwise, you will never know what you are talking about(um, the posts here) and you will susceptible to being fooled with in terms of every aspect of life. Question: Do you think Mike Vick is wishing he had taken an accounting class right now?

 

I have a buddy who is a social worker, and I have huge respect for him because literally nobody wants his job. It's much more of a calling. Every time we talk politics, his basic understanding of how things work either doesn't exist or is FUBAR. I spend most of the conversation explaining info from the classes I listed above. What I don't understand is his choice to form such an opinionated position, when he clearly doesn't understand the basics.

 

Make no mistake, this guy has 2 mater's degrees, he is a great guy, and he is a reasonable person. He acknowledges he has no idea how America works. And so I spend time giving him a free education on the basics, and we don't spend much time on high level policy or partisan crap. That would be boring anyway. What's interesting for me is trying to figure out where in the hell these terribly misconstrued concepts that a lot of his thinking is predicated on come from.

 

So far, the answer appears to be: other, partisan-liberal, ignorant, non-educated people, who have even less of an idea how America works.

 

Now for the other side: a-hole VCs and startup programmers/non-technical hacks turned CEOs. They also did not have even the basic grasp of these concepts. Yes, a large part of people running around calling themselves "business people" today, because they started a website or a consulting firm, know very little of business. In the startups I worked for, I was able to shock and amaze them with my profound ability to explain basic accounting. I will never forget the day my supposed "boss"(ex-meat salesman who read one programming book) called me and asked my why Boeing, one of my clients, was so concerned about their AR charges and making sure of their accuracies. Literally: "Why can't just tell them not to worry so much about it and that we'll get to it in Phase II?" <---if you don't know why that is a hysterically stupid question, especially for a company like Boeing, well....you might be in need of an accounting class if you have any interest in starting a company, ever!

 

The other problem is that so many of the real "rich" people in this country think $$$ = knowledge. Just because daddy left you 50 mil doesn't suddenly turn you into Deming or Buffet. This is why I would support a "death tax" break for anyone who inherits $$$ or a business that can clearly prove they have the training to manage those assets responsibly, and a double whack tax if you cannot. Paris Hilton should be taxed to hell and gone when she inherits the family business, because it's obvious she will do nothing to improve it.

 

It's ok to make something from nothing and hand it down to your kids. It's not ok to fail to prepare those kids properly for the responsibility you have handed down as well. If I ever have kids, they will know how to gather requirements, design systems, and manage projects before they hit high school. But I will probably send them to college to learn the arts, literature, etc., because those are important as well.

[KD in CA]

I have a buddy who is a social worker, and I have huge respect for him because literally nobody wants his job. It's much more of a calling. Every time we talk politics, his basic understanding of how things work either doesn't exist or is FUBAR. I spend most of the conversation explaining info from the classes I listed above. What I don't understand is his choice to form such an opinionated position, when he clearly doesn't understand the basics.

 

Make no mistake, this guy has 2 mater's degrees, he is a great guy, and he is a reasonable person. He acknowledges he has no idea how America works. And so I spend time giving him a free education on the basics, and we don't spend much time on high level policy or partisan crap. That would be boring anyway. What's interesting for me is trying to figure out where in the hell these terribly misconstrued concepts that a lot of his thinking is predicated on come from.

 

 

Sounds like my sister. Ivy league masters' degree in social work and can't see beyond "raise taxes on anyone making six figures because it breaks my heart to see these pathetic people everyday at work". It's not just FUBAR, it's scary. The long term outlook for our country is not good.

[/dev/null]

I will never forget the day my supposed "boss"(ex-meat salesman who read one programming book) called me and asked my why Boeing, one of my clients, was so concerned about their AR charges and making sure of their accuracies. Literally: "Why can't just tell them not to worry so much about it and that we'll get to it in Phase II?"

 

Phase II?

 

[DC Tom]

Every time we talk politics, his basic understanding of how things work either doesn't exist or is FUBAR.

 

Who does he post as here?

[justnzane]

Make no mistake, this guy has 2 mater's degrees, he is a great guy, and he is a reasonable person. He acknowledges he has no idea how America works. And so I spend time giving him a free education on the basics, and we don't spend much time on high level policy or partisan crap. That would be boring anyway. What's interesting for me is trying to figure out where in the hell these terribly misconstrued concepts that a lot of his thinking is predicated on come from.

 

No wonder he listens to you. Considering a mater's degree can't be that high (or tough) of a degree

[Chef Jim]

College degrees, bah......who needs them.