Pyrite Gal Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 Little easier to sell out two 20,000-seat hockey arenas than two 60-70,000-seat stadiums, though ... Definitely true on an individual game basis, but it is also true that selling out 40 games is a bigger load than selling out 8 games. The NHL and the NFL are not equivalent (total seat sales and their distribution and obviously selling hockey in CA is different than selling football) but the general concept of selling one of the world's greatest entertainment products to one of the largest markets in the world makes it quite doable the concept of having an operating NFL franchise in TOR capable of making a lot of bucks. We already know for sure that it is possible to have an operating NFL franchise in WNY capable of making a lot of bucks. The question is whether both can operate at the same time. The NHL example says probably yes. I think the question which folks who insist the Bills are gone should have at least some answer for is why would the NFL take less money when it can have more money. An individual owner be it Rogers, Paul Allen or whomever might easily make the decision to go for the bigger market (duh), but what the Benigni report seems to say is that the NFL as a whole will have a financial veto on any deal and my sense is the NFL will choose to have more money rather than less if it can.
Ray Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 The fatalistic Buffalo fans will not be happy that yes it will be very difficult to move the team out of Buffalo. Do you think Rogers wants to leverage half of his net worth on an NFL team. Do you really think he will make 300M a year in profit on the team....he would have to buy the team, pay the relocation fee and finance a stadium privately. That is a lot of cash up front. Relax people....as long as the Bills draw well here and make an effort to broaden their fan base they will do well. The Bills are staying in WNY so support the team and be happy! Playing a game a year in Toronto is a very good thing for the franchise....it is NOT a prelude to moving there.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 It's simple smart business for Ralph to say things like "it will go to the highest bidder". It doesn't mean it's true and I would bet anything that Ralph is doing things to try to ensure the Bills stay in Buffalo. He wants the most money he can get for his family AND try to keep the team here. But if local buyers are only,say, 5-10 million away in their bid than potential owners who wish to move the team, I would guarantee the team stays. Ralph will make provisions in his will. It will perhaps be out of his hands if someone swoops in with an outrageous bid, far more than all others. Then the trustee couldn't do much to keep the team here. But saying it will go to the highest bidder now shouldn't be taken literally.
Just Jack Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 Apparently, 'ticket brokers' were selling $190 seats for as little as 10 bucks, and Rogers was handing out free tix to all its employees. And they were still there almost an hour after kickoff trying to make sales.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 The one thing which I think is almost definite rule is that the NFL will support the option which makes the league the most money. I think IF this is the logic that drives the process that when given a choice of Toronto and Buffalo for a franchise the obvious choice for the NFL will be to choose BOTH. If a mickey mouse league like the NHL can make this work my guess is that the NFL can make it work also. Who said the NHL is "making it work?" The league isn't exactly raking in the cash every season. And I thought I remembered hearing the Sabres are just barely scraping a profit each year? Additionally, hockey is embedded in the culture of both Buffalo and Toronto. That isn't the case with football.
Pyrite Gal Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 Who said the NHL is "making it work?" The league isn't exactly raking in the cash every season. And I thought I remembered hearing the Sabres are just barely scraping a profit each year? Additionally, hockey is embedded in the culture of both Buffalo and Toronto. That isn't the case with football. Who did SI rank as the #1 franchise in all of sports last year taking into account a number of issues involving the financial status and prospects for a team (as well as a heavy does of other key important issues for fans like ticket prices, entertainment value, team playing quality etc which are not the financial aspect but do not devalue the financial aspects)? It was the Buffalo Sabres and I think this constitutes someone claiming that the Sabres franchise is making it work. Also as I said, CA is a hockey mad country and this clearly is a key part of why the Maple Leafs are also a solid franchise despite the fact the team has had a pretty sorry record of success for the most part over the last few years and the NHL and NHLPA muddled things so badly they could not even produce a product for a lengthy period of time. Despite this insane handling I do not know anyone who is even worried about the long-term commitment of this town to the franchise. These two facts constitute any reasonable person seeing these franchises as making it work despite the fact that the NHL is a Mickey Mouse league compared to the money machine of the NFL. Hockey is a great sport in my opinion and the run of the US Hockey team in the 80 Olympics is the finest achievement in sport by a team I have ever seen (which included incredibly hard hitting and incredibly tough work and no direct support for the goondom which is the stock and trade of an NHL which does a huge disservice to a great sport in my humble opinion). Do you disagree with my estimation and understanding that SI as recently as last year declared the Sabres to be a franchise making it work and see the Maple Leafs as easily a going concern? If you disagree then please lay out the arguments as to why and if not then please retract your previous questioning of this statement.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 If you disagree then please lay out the arguments as to why and if not then please retract your previous questioning of this statement. I'l do neither, as I hardly made a statement worth retracting. But thanks for the info regarding the SI publication, I had no idea of that. Pretty much answers my question. I thought I remembered hearing that the Sabres just hardly churn a profit on an annual basis. Either I thought wrong and my imagination is at work, or thats old info from before Golisano took the reigns.
Buffalo_soul-dier Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/p...3/808170323/tbd "In salivating over the lucrative Toronto market, NFL owners could waive expensive relocation fees and help finance a new stadium in Toronto if it came to that." What??!?! so they are saying that the league would eat $900 million dollars AND build toronto a new stadium just to get them in the league?...hahahahhahaa...oh man....what a joke...i gotta get me some of that rochester herb
Bmwolf21 Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 Who said the NHL is "making it work?" The league isn't exactly raking in the cash every season. And I thought I remembered hearing the Sabres are just barely scraping a profit each year? Additionally, hockey is embedded in the culture of both Buffalo and Toronto. That isn't the case with football. NHL revenues have gone up every year since the lockout - approx. $2.1 billion in 05-06, $2.2B in 06-07, and 2.56B in 07-08. Obviously that pales in comparison to the NFL and MLB, but I wouldn't disagree with Pyrite - right now they are making it work.
Buffalo_soul-dier Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 You guys are totally ignoring the fact that Hockey was invented in canada. Of course they are going to embrace it and go nuts over it and make a team work there. We have a great market for sports in this country, but do you think a professional cricket team would rake in a lot of money here? no, because its not a sport thats appreciated here
BobbyC81 Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 Adam Benigni just stated that for the Bills to move to toronto, an owner would have to pay $800 million to $1 billion for the franchise, and then pay $600-900 million as a relocation fee, and THEN help finance a new stadium in toronto. So this a recent fee?? I don't recall Irsay and his Colts, the Browns to Baltimore and Al Davis's Raiders to LA & then back again having to pay big fees. Of course Irsay did it in the middle of the night.
VOR Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 So this a recent fee?? I don't recall Irsay and his Colts, the Browns to Baltimore and Al Davis's Raiders to LA & then back again having to pay big fees. Of course Irsay did it in the middle of the night. Modell had to pay a relocation fee of something like $29M. And I believe the relocation fee was added between the Colts' move (1984) and the Browns' move (1996), as a deterrent to moving without a good reason.
The Real Canucklehead Posted August 18, 2008 Posted August 18, 2008 Adam Benigni just stated that for the Bills to move to toronto, an owner would have to pay $800 million to $1 billion for the franchise, and then pay $600-900 million as a relocation fee, and THEN help finance a new stadium in toronto. The stadium hotel at the Rogers Centre - which by being added stole the space for some 20-30,000 seats - could apparently be ripped out and replaced with seats for a surprisingly small expense, bringing football seating up to about 71,000. The original stadium design, we're told, was always such that the hotel could be in or out... The whole relocation (team purchase, league relocation fee, and stadium renovation costs) could cost as little as $1.7 billion. Given that Ted Rogers acquired the stadium for a few million in the first place, this represents a very affordable model... And given the near parity of the Canadian dollar these days, it must seem a bargain to Rogers compared to what he was looking at even two years ago... Money may well not be the determining factor.
The Real Canucklehead Posted August 18, 2008 Posted August 18, 2008 Who said the NHL is "making it work?" The league isn't exactly raking in the cash every season. And I thought I remembered hearing the Sabres are just barely scraping a profit each year? Additionally, hockey is embedded in the culture of both Buffalo and Toronto. That isn't the case with football. Except that there has been professional football in Toronto for over 100 years, the Argonauts being North America's oldest sports franchise in its original city and with its original name... And if you look at TV ratings for the NFL in the Toronto market, where there is no local team, you'll see it's in the top ten for NFL audience viewership...
The Real Canucklehead Posted August 18, 2008 Posted August 18, 2008 Except sources in the league say it would be around $600 to $900 million Last comment on relocation finances: Ted Rogers wouldn't have to write a check from his personal account. He regularly finances deals worth more than this - and the banks underwrite it all. He pays the nut out of operational revenue, plus starts earning from an appreciating asset the moment he takes over (if he was to). Again, finances won't dictate how this plays out...
Tim Anderson's Lunch Pail Posted August 18, 2008 Posted August 18, 2008 http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/p...3/808170323/tbd "In salivating over the lucrative Toronto market, NFL owners could waive expensive relocation fees and help finance a new stadium in Toronto if it came to that." What??!?! so they are saying that the league would eat $900 million dollars AND build toronto a new stadium just to get them in the league?...hahahahhahaa...oh man....what a joke...i gotta get me some of that rochester herb It's not that far fetched. If the league truly wants to reach out internationally, this would be an easy step. It's a lot easier to have team in Toronto than London, logistically. The owners wouldn't necessarily be eating the fee; they just wouldn't assess it. Kind of like how if someone wants to move the Jaguars to Los Angeles, there won't be a $900 million relocation fee. If it is in the best interest of the league overally, they will do it.
Pyrite Gal Posted August 18, 2008 Posted August 18, 2008 It's not that far fetched. If the league truly wants to reach out internationally, this would be an easy step. It's a lot easier to have team in Toronto than London, logistically. The owners wouldn't necessarily be eating the fee; they just wouldn't assess it. Kind of like how if someone wants to move the Jaguars to Los Angeles, there won't be a $900 million relocation fee. If it is in the best interest of the league overally, they will do it. Exactly. The NFL (of course with the agreement of its partner the NFLPA which received 60.5% of the total gross assetsI will do whatever it judges to be in its best interest regarding a relocation fee or whatever. My argument is simply that the best interests of the NFL will almost certainly be what makes it the most money and thus it is hard for me to see why confronted with a choice of the possibility of big bucks from Toronto and the definitely existing big bucks currently gathered by the Bills in WNY, the NFLPA will chose both if it can.
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