The Big Cat Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in? By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four. I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in? By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four. I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair. Well, I find your argument fundementally flawed as your shot putter would also have to be great in disc, hammer, and javelin to be compared to Phelps. Just because swimming is swimming doesn't mean there isn't specialization within it. Phelps is just a once in a generation type athlete though. As a track guy, I would not be insulted by any comparisons to Carl Lewis or Jackie Joyner Kersee as Phelps is that type of dominant athlete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share Posted August 13, 2008 Well, I find your argument fundementally flawed as your shot putter would also have to be great in disc, hammer, and javelin to be compared to Phelps. Just because swimming is swimming doesn't mean there isn't specialization within it. Phelps is just a once in a generation type athlete though. As a track guy, I would not be insulted by any comparisons to Carl Lewis or Jackie Joyner Kersee as Phelps is that type of dominant athlete Okay, smart guy, well then substitute for shot put rifling, or boxing, or judo, or fencing, or sailing, or weight lifting. And furthermore, no. If you're an Olympic swimmer- AND A GOOD ONE AT THAT- you're competing in AT LEAST two events. AT LEAST. If you're the best in your stroke, you're in one of the medley relays, on top of your own event, and possibly even the IM. And my argument CAN'T be flawed, because if you're watching the Olympics they're calling him the greatest, and most decorated Olympic athlete ever. Olympic athlete. Not swimmer, runner, thrower, rower, tumbler, or shooter, but all the aforementioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in? By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four three. I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair. Phelps just had to swim two finals an hour apart; it takes a special, and incredibly well-conditioned, athlete to hold up over Phelps' workload. That's why you don't hear about a Spitz or Biondi or Phelps every four years. Comparing him to a shot putter, or any other athlete who can concentrate on a single event? I don't think it's applicable. Now, if you'd like to argue in favor of decathletes -- the decathalon record-holder has long been known as the "World's Greatest Athlete" -- I wouldn't disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share Posted August 13, 2008 Phelps just had to swim two finals an hour apart; it takes a special, and incredibly well-conditioned, athlete to hold up over Phelps' workload. That's why you don't hear about a Spitz or Biondi or Phelps every four years. Comparing him to a shot putter, or any other athlete who can concentrate on a single event? I don't think it's applicable. Now, if you'd like to argue in favor of decathletes -- the decathalon record-holder has long been known as the "World's Greatest Athlete" -- I wouldn't disagree. I don't think it's applicable either, that's the whole point. And swimmers swim multiple events, it's just a fact of the sport. When you tally how many Olympic events Michael Phelps has participated in, I think it's unfair to call him the "greatest Olympiad" given the small number of shots other athletes have had. Personally I don't think the "he won two in one night" argument holds any water (pun intended) since that's what happens in swimming. Swimmers swim several times during one meet at every level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetbaboo Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I don't think it's applicable either, that's the whole point. And swimmers swim multiple events, it's just a fact of the sport. When you tally how many Olympic events Michael Phelps has participated in, I think it's unfair to call him the "greatest Olympiad" given the small number of shots other athletes have had. Personally I don't think the "he won two in one night" argument holds any water (pun intended) since that's what happens in swimming. Swimmers swim several times during one meet at every level. I don't even know how to argue this. Who would you consider a great Olympian? Who would you consider the greatest and why? Phelps has shown consistently in the last 3 Olympics that he stands out among the other Olympic athletes (of all sports) by demonstrating absolute dominance in his sport. Can you name another 3 athletes that are similar? How about just one? Outside of the Olympics, he's also dominating the entire sport of swimming rather than just one or two events. What he's done at the Olympics is mindboggling. He's not out-touching his opponents by fingertips. He's destroying them by full body lengths or more. This would be like an Olympic boxer coming out and knocking out all of his opponents with one punch. As for swimmers swimming multiple events in one meet...yeah, they do that and it's absolutely brutal (try sprinting a 200m butterfly...) On top of that, regular swimmers also don't face fresh world class specialists in each event. Some of those specialists show up and only swim one event (i.e. Ian Crocker) before hanging it up for the rest of the meet. Fair? Equating swimming to shotput or f*ucking rifling is unfair. If you're basing the media hype about him being the greatest Olympian solely off of his medal count, then I'd say that the media's focus on the number of gold medals he has is doing him injustice. Medals aside, his dominating performance alone would net him the title of best Olympian. A shot putter would have to throw his shot out of the stadium in multiple Olympics to impress the way Phelps is impressing. Do I sound like some fanboy? Hopefully not...but as a swimmer, I'm flabbergasted at what he's doing. Everyone in the sport is. I know records will get broken over time, but I also figured they'd fall by hundredths of a second at a time...not 2 second smashes. On another note, I can't believe 10m air pistol is an Olympic sport while softball is being eliminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 You're right, there's probably another Olympian who has won back-to-back events with 54 minutes between them, setting both World and Olympic records. Oh, and Phelps has done it TWICE. IN THE SAME OLYMPICS. And if what Phelps has done is so unremarkable, why don't you tell me why another SWIMMER hasn't accomplished the same feat, since swimming has been an Olympic event since...Well, forever. Jesus Christ, is there ever going to be any accomplishment that some !@#$ing blockhead isn't going to try and sh-- all over in an attempt to show how "smart" they really are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 You're right, there's probably another Olympian who has won back-to-back events with 54 minutes between them, setting both World and Olympic records. Oh, and Phelps has done it TWICE. IN THE SAME OLYMPICS. And if what Phelps has done is so unremarkable, why don't you tell me why another SWIMMER hasn't accomplished the same feat, since swimming has been an Olympic event since...Well, forever. Jesus Christ, is there ever going to be any accomplishment that some !@#$ing blockhead isn't going to try and sh-- all over in an attempt to show how "smart" they really are? Of course that will never happen, that would be logical, it's kinda like me, I finally went and saw the Dark Knight, and after hearing how great Heath Ledger was, I wanted to try and prove he wasn't as good as people were making him out to be. However once it was over and as we were walking out of the movie, I turned to my GF and said holy sh-- ---- He was that damn good. If people would stop trying to go against the grain on everything they would realize Phelps is one of the greatest athletes of our time and accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Anyone who puts swimming in "another category" has proven one thing: They've never swam competitively. If you're a basketball fan, and you say that swimming is not a difficult sport, go play some hoops at 100% energy level for an hour. You'll be beat, and you'll be saying that you got a great workout. Now come back the next day and swim a 200 fly at competition speed. You'll be crying to your momma when it's over. Swimming is as difficult as any sport out there. I still think that the decathalon winner is the greatest athelete, but michael phelps must be said in the same breath as muhammed ali, tiger woods, michael jordan, wayne gretzky, jim thorpe, etc. Like any "greatest ever" argument, it's nearly impossible to convince everyone that he is the greatest, but its less likely to convince them that he's not part of that group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in? By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four. I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair. You would call him the greatest OLYMPIAN ever you silly cat. IMO your lhojic is as flawed as your spelling. Can any track athlete compare? A runner would have as wide a range of events...has anyone dominated the running/jumping portion of an Olympics? Give the man his due...he's earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveRalph Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in? By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four. I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair. So who is the greatest Olympian ever? Carl Lewis? Jackie Joyner Kersey? Jesse Owens? They all had multiple opportunities to win events (100m, long jump, relays, etc.) just like swimming. It is perfectly fine if you think it is unfair to bestow this unofficial "title" on Phelps, but you should state who you consider to be the greatest Olympian ever, if not Phelps. Something to be considered, other than TOTAL number of medals, is longevity. It's almost more impressive that Dara Torres has been able to remain a world-class swimmer for 20+ years, rather than racking up awards during her 6-year prime. That takes some serious physical stamina and even more mental stamina. Someone like Jackie Joyner-Kersey also set a standard for excellence in multiple events over an extended period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agilen Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I think the problem is the huge number of medals available to a swimmer as compared to another athlete. Phelps may be one of the best swimmers ever, I have no doubt about that. But 11 medals in 2 olympics are only available to a select few sports, and the media has utterly and completely gotten on the "how many shiny things can we look at at once" bandwagon. Say there was olympic golf, for arguments sake. I'm going to bet that Tiger Woods would dominate that, because he is easily one of the greatest athletes in the history of sports. But, he'd still just win 1 gold medal, and to people who count the medals they'd say Phelps is a superior athlete. Make no mistake about it, the hype around Phelps is because of medal count. Other athletes could be just as dominant in their sport, but if they were only able to win 1, they wouldn't get the coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I think the problem is the huge number of medals available to a swimmer as compared to another athlete. Phelps may be one of the best swimmers ever, I have no doubt about that. But 11 medals in 2 olympics are only available to a select few sports, and the media has utterly and completely gotten on the "how many shiny things can we look at at once" bandwagon. Say there was olympic golf, for arguments sake. I'm going to bet that Tiger Woods would dominate that, because he is easily one of the greatest athletes in the history of sports. But, he'd still just win 1 gold medal, and to people who count the medals they'd say Phelps is a superior athlete. Make no mistake about it, the hype around Phelps is because of medal count. Other athletes could be just as dominant in their sport, but if they were only able to win 1, they wouldn't get the coverage. It is not just his medal count, he keeps breaking WORLD RECORDS every time he swims. That means he is swimming faster than anyone ever has. If Tiger hit the greatest shot the world has ever seen at every hole, then sure he would be right up there with Phelps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFinkle Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Jesus Christ, is there ever going to be any accomplishment that some !@#$ing blockhead isn't going to try and sh-- all over in an attempt to show how "smart" they really are? As long as the threat of Big Cat reproducing lingers, none of us is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share Posted August 13, 2008 Anyone who puts swimming in "another category" has proven one thing: They've never swam competitively. If you're a basketball fan, and you say that swimming is not a difficult sport, go play some hoops at 100% energy level for an hour. You'll be beat, and you'll be saying that you got a great workout. Now come back the next day and swim a 200 fly at competition speed. You'll be crying to your momma when it's over. Swimming is as difficult as any sport out there. I still think that the decathalon winner is the greatest athelete, but michael phelps must be said in the same breath as muhammed ali, tiger woods, michael jordan, wayne gretzky, jim thorpe, etc. Like any "greatest ever" argument, it's nearly impossible to convince everyone that he is the greatest, but its less likely to convince them that he's not part of that group. I swam competitively for 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveRalph Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 It is not just his medal count, he keeps breaking WORLD RECORDS every time he swims. That means he is swimming faster than anyone ever has. If Tiger hit the greatest shot the world has ever seen at every hole, then sure he would be right up there with Phelps. Phelps is unbelievable, and holds the majority of the world records in his events, but a world record from 2007 is dated in swimming at the moment. It is supposedly a very fast pool, and the swimsuit (namely the Speedo TYR, I think its called) are making previous swimming records obsolete. There are races where the guy finishing in 5th place is breaking the previous world record. That's not to take anything away from Phelps, because everyone is swimming faster and he's still the fastest. But, there are plenty of other variables other than just being a better swimmer than the previous world record holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share Posted August 13, 2008 And for all of you who accuse ME of a smear compaigin- never did I say he wasn't the greastest swimmer, he clearly is. Never did I say his accomplishments aren't that big of a deal, in fact I believe I specifically addressed this. ALL I'M SAYING: is that the media going goo goo gah gah over his MEDAL COUNT is unfair to other athletes who compete in ONE EVENT PER OLYMPICS!---> said athletes being the majority of OlympiaDS. Sheesh. And just out of curiosity-is there another swimmer (besides me) who has contributed to this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taterhill Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 8 years of swimming? Next stop London Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agilen Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 It is not just his medal count, he keeps breaking WORLD RECORDS every time he swims. That means he is swimming faster than anyone ever has. If Tiger hit the greatest shot the world has ever seen at every hole, then sure he would be right up there with Phelps. NPR had a story yesterday (or maybe Monday?) about why all the records are being broken. Basically, the gist of it is that records are made to be broken, so they always will...but there are some good reasons why it is happening now. The new swimsuits supposedly can shave 2% off a swimmer's time, which is over a second for every minute they swim. Also, the pool in Beijing is 3m deep, where as olympic standards are 2m. So, there is much more water to absorb the turbulence created by a pool full of swimmers, so the water is much calmer than in past olympic pools. They didn't quantify the difference this makes, but they seemed to imply that this made an even bigger difference than the swimsuits, hence we are seeing records broken by 4-5 seconds. Now, Phelps is swimming in the same pool in the same suit as the other guys _right now_, and beating them, so yes, he is the best swimmer there is right now. But breaking world records with the above factors is probably somewhat expected during these olympics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 ALL I'M SAYING: is that the media going goo goo gah gah over his MEDAL COUNT is unfair to other athletes who compete in ONE EVENT PER OLYMPICS!---> said athletes being the majority of OlympiaDS. I let this slide once, but not twice when you capitalize it. OlympiaDs are separated by 4 years. The people who compete are OlympiaNs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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