Here's what I don't understand

[ConradDobler]

How about relenting on the adversarial approach.

 

WHAT?

 

Where the HELL are your parents? You are nothing else on this MB BUT adversarial.

 

If my son (forgive me but I'm ASSuming you're a boy) got this worked up about anything not directly related to his success in life, I'd make sure he'd be distracted from the issue, even if it took a good spanking to get the point across.

 

Keep your childish opinions in the schoolyard, and stop pestering the adults.

 

Try the Disney boards. They may appreciate your pithy reviews of the latest Hannah Montana movie.

[Simon]

giving Butler (this year) a seemingly inflated extension also with even less on record to suggest that he's gonna even be an average G........

 

And honestly, does anyone not think that they couldn't have found a G to give us what Butler does for half the money.......

 

We didn't force Brad Butler, who's started for one season with unspectacular results......

 

 

Not sure why you keep taking shots at Brad Butler. If you had watched the Bills play last season you might have noticed that he really played some fantastic football throughout the year.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Not sure why you keep taking shots at Brad Butler. If you had watched the Bills play last season you might have noticed that he really played some fantastic football throughout the year.

Thats good to hear from someone who clearly isn't afraid to call these young starters of ours out when they're not up to snuff. Makes your thumbs up more meaningful.

[Simon]

Thats good to hear from someone who clearly isn't afraid to call these young starters of ours out when they're not up to snuff. Makes your thumbs up more meaningful.

Funny thing is that I despised the pick and I absolutely wanted to hate on Butler the first chance I got. imo there's nothing worse on a field than a gratuitous shot at a guys knee and his backside low blow on that BC End infuriated me.

But damn if the guy didn't come out and start kicking asses when he got his shot.

He shut my big mouth right quick.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

He shut my big mouth right quick.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad he did. Lets hope Ko and Marshawn can follow suit.

[Simon]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad he did. Lets hope Ko and Marshawn can follow suit.

I'm glad he did too. And I was just about to edit my post and add that I hope Ko does it next.

And for the record, I never really busted on Marshawn. It was more a matter of thinking that the many folks who were hyping his speed and explosiveness were way off base. I just don't think he'll ever be that kind of back.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

And for the record, I never really busted on Marshawn. It was more a matter of thinking that the many folks who were hyping his speed and explosiveness were way off base. I just don't think he'll ever be that kind of back.

You've set the record straight, of course.

 

The thing about Lynch was that to my memory all the TSW pre-draft buzz surrounding him was virtually the opposite of what he actually is. Not being a huge college football fan, I had to rely on other fans' opinions...and that left me the impression of a Marshall Faulk or a Brian Westbrook type: seemingly a natural when lining up as a wide reciever, possessing lightning speed and quickness, with MOVES in the open field. What we got was more Brandon Jacobs than Marshall Faulk.

 

Without that homerun ability some of us thought we were drafting, I don't know if he'll ever be an elite back. Not that I'm complaining. Lynch ought to be a darn good back in this league for some time, and we should all be happy to have him.

[Pyrite Gal]

A great discussion here! Lots of interesting point, counter-point. The only thing that I might chime in on is the "personal" aspect of it, meaning that I doubt that it's as "insulting" and "personal" as some might think. With the amount of money being potentially thrown around here, there's going to be a lot of posturing. Whether it's really "personal" in the fan's sense of the word? I doubt it. Jason is a professional athlete with a pretty good agent. He understands that this is ultimately a business and that he's only one play away from no longer being able to do this for a living. Jason's agent is trying to get as much money as possible for his player. That's his job. Brandon's job is to try to make a deal that's as reasonable as possible for his team. And while it's true that Ralph will more often than not come down on the "cheap" side, very few NFL owners have limitless amounts of money to throw around. Some history to back up my points:

 

The now legendary negotiating tactics between Bill Polian and Jim Kelly and his agent. Bill is notoriously emotional, and goes to extremes to prove his point. But in the long run,

Kelly got his money and Bill got the concessions he wanted. It worked out pretty well.

 

More recently: Lance Briggs in Chicago. At one point, Lance was on record as saying he would never play for the Bears again. He's still there, he got his money, and the Bears got some of the conessions they wanted.

 

I'm not saying this will automatically happen with Peters, but chances are that they'll work it out.

 

GO BILLS

A lot depends on what happens after the deal gets done and both parties have bruised egos. Winning goes a long way toward making everyone happy regardless of any bad feelings.

 

The good news for the Bills is that given their relative youth and their clearly improved play since the Mularkey days and maintaining the same record despite leading the NFL with players on the IR this team seems poised to make the playoffs bt next season,

[MarkyMannn]

A lot depends on what happens after the deal gets done and both parties have bruised egos. Winning goes a long way toward making everyone happy regardless of any bad feelings.

 

The good news for the Bills is that given their relative youth and their clearly improved play since the Mularkey days and maintaining the same record despite leading the NFL with players on the IR this team seems poised to make the playoffs bt next season,

 

You got Carpal Tunnel Syndrome? Barely 6 lines in response

[Mickey]

Not sure why you keep taking shots at Brad Butler. If you had watched the Bills play last season you might have noticed that he really played some fantastic football throughout the year.

I like Butler too but we fielded the worst offense in the history of the franchise, there wasn't a lot of fantastic play by anyone on that side of the ball.

[Mickey]

Funny thing is that I despised the pick and I absolutely wanted to hate on Butler the first chance I got. imo there's nothing worse on a field than a gratuitous shot at a guys knee and his backside low blow on that BC End infuriated me.

But damn if the guy didn't come out and start kicking asses when he got his shot.

He shut my big mouth right quick.

A modern, less penalty prone, version of Conrad Dobler. The thing about an occasional dirty shot is that it gets defensive lineman a little worried, a little tentative. It can have value, within reason.

[nucci]

I like Butler too but we fielded the worst offense in the history of the franchise, there wasn't a lot of fantastic play by anyone on that side of the ball.

The offense was bad but I can pull some years from the 60's and 70's and find much worse.

[krazykat]

Where the HELL are your parents? You are nothing else on this MB BUT adversarial.

 

If my son (forgive me but I'm ASSuming you're a boy) got this worked up about anything not directly related to his success in life, I'd make sure he'd be distracted from the issue, even if it took a good spanking to get the point across.

 

Keep your childish opinions in the schoolyard, and stop pestering the adults.

You can't find any words from me, except those prompted by individual posters that used worse to initiate and directed specifically at them and only rarely, that prove your point in the least.

 

You guys get worked up over a simple disagreement, and you want to discuss childish? Please!

 

This board generally speaking is like a mob. Conform and you're in, disagree and simple disagreement becomes the equivalent of violent crime to you people.

 

I don't get worked up. I make my points. The ones getting worked up are the ones whos intellects are presumably too retarded to deal with their issues verbally and they resort to petty and childish name calling.

 

Case in point, you won't provide any posts of mine that meet the above criteria because they don't exist. You have me as your whipping boy, or one of them, and I don't mind. I understand the childish mindset the drives it all and enjoy the handful of responses I get that genuinely want to discuss these topics.

 

Just as in this post, I'm just stating the facts, not getting worked up at all, yet you will consider this, amidst a sea of posts saying all kinds of rude things to me, as the guilty party in whatever this general morass is. Feel free, but if you actually look at the facts instead of succumbing to this predetermined notion that I'm what you and everyone says I am with little actual evidence to actually prove it, then you'd come to the opposite conclusion and I'd have been banned a long time ago. Or at least should have been if that's the case.

 

Meanwhile, you say nothing about the vast array of ... I don't even know what to call them, but the people that levy all of these nasty names and charges at me (or others) simply because we don't see the Bills posting a winning season or making the playoffs and as an issue laden team otherwise.

 

Again, feel free, but it's obvious to a blind monkey as a newcomer what goes on here.

 

I can say the same exact thing as other "approved" posters yet people will argue with me simply for the sake of not wanting to have to agree regardless of the evidence put forth to substantiate any arguments, or not put forth. That's what I meant by "adversarial approach." Perhaps I was a little harsh there too, IDK, but it gets old even though I don't mind it for the most part.

[krazykat]

Not sure why you keep taking shots at Brad Butler. If you had watched the Bills play last season you might have noticed that he really played some fantastic football throughout the year.

Boyt, you've sure done your research, huh.

 

Yeah, he was part of the OL that helped this team finish dead last in offensive TDs produced. That means fewer than the Fins, Jets, Raiders, Chiefs, Niners. Yes, I know, very impressive. 30th in total yards only 5 yards ahead of the Chiefs. Also very impressive.

 

I mean how can anyone have any doubts with evidence like that. Our OL must have played the lights out last year to have produced like that. Then again, if we had a RBs and an OL like Justin Fargas and Lamont Jordan and the Raider OL instead of the great OL that you say we had and crappy Lynch and Jackson, then maybe we would have had almost 2,100 rushing yards and 11 rushing TDs instead of only 1,800/6.

 

But then again, Edwards was a rookie with no receiving weapons. If we had had Josh McCown and Daunte Culpepper instead of Edwards and Jerry Porter and Ronald Curry instead of Evans, Reed, and Parrish, our running game would have no doubt been vastly superior.

 

So yeah, you've made your point.

 

Otherwise, what particularly about Butler makes you think he deserved a ~ $2.5M raise/season?

[GG]

And honestly, does anyone not think that they couldn't have found a G to give us what Butler does for half the money.

 

Absolutely. His name is:

 

Joe Panos

Mike Pucillo

Chris Villareal

Bennie Anderson

Duke Preston

Tutal Reyes

 

So, what's your point?

 

I don't know how many times the same thing needs to be explained to you and your friends. No one is arguing that Peters is not regarded as one of the top LTs in the game and will get paid commensurately with that. The argument is that his agent is giving him bad advice, because Ralph Wilson does not succumb to hold out pressure, especially when he has all the leverage. Never has, never will. All your examples point that Ralph is willing to pay players before their contracts are up, as long as they play by his rules, because it's his team and his money. I like when people talk about good faith, Peters' original extension is an after thought. How about the fact that he was overpaid for 2 years? How about good faith to a team that's saved him from a life of burger flipping?

 

So please spare me the talk that Peters is slighted by the big bad racist owner. The team gave him a chance. They have paid him very well to now, and will likely pay him a lot more in the future. But sitting out camp is not going to get it done with this owner.

 

So you can stomp your feet all you want, but the bottom line is that Peters is getting bad advice from an aggressive agent.

[Pyrite Gal]

Boyt, you've sure done your research, huh.

 

Yeah, he was part of the OL that helped this team finish dead last in offensive TDs produced. That means fewer than the Fins, Jets, Raiders, Chiefs, Niners. Yes, I know, very impressive. 30th in total yards only 5 yards ahead of the Chiefs. Also very impressive.

 

I mean how can anyone have any doubts with evidence like that. Our OL must have played the lights out last year to have produced like that. Then again, if we had a RBs and an OL like Justin Fargas and Lamont Jordan and the Raider OL instead of the great OL that you say we had and crappy Lynch and Jackson, then maybe we would have had almost 2,100 rushing yards and 11 rushing TDs instead of only 1,800/6.

 

But then again, Edwards was a rookie with no receiving weapons. If we had had Josh McCown and Daunte Culpepper instead of Edwards and Jerry Porter and Ronald Curry instead of Evans, Reed, and Parrish, our running game would have no doubt been vastly superior.

 

So yeah, you've made your point.

 

Otherwise, what particularly about Butler makes you think he deserved a ~ $2.5M raise/season?

Obviously there are any number of aspects that were a significant part of the horrendous statistical yardage production such as:

 

1. The O scheme designed and called by Fairchild (in particular we simply did not seem to run enough pass plays which tried to use the TE and RBs effectively as receivers. It would be one thing if they all were suffering a case of the droppsies similar to Reed's horrible personal streak his second year, but the problem with this aspect IMHO was not players not catching the ball but simply a lame O scheme.

2. One of Marv's favorite cliches which actually has some truth to it is that when a team has 2 starting QBs it has no starting QB. Due to injury and then some uncertainty this offense never really had consistent leadership.

3. The WR situation was jumbled at best and it was clear at draft time we needed to find a #2.

4. The ST portion of the game in terms of coverage was at the very least troubled and this resulted in a number of poor play starts.

5. The team led the NFL in players who were put on the IR, but in addition we suffered significant lost time by our RB starter and by both QBs which were not bad enough to end their season but influenced and hurt their play.

6. OL performance.

 

Of these 6 I think you are looking at thing incorrectly if you judge the OL play as being the main reason for our poor O performance.

[krazykat]

Absolutely. His name is:

 

Joe Panos

Mike Pucillo

Chris Villareal

Bennie Anderson

Duke Preston

Tutal Reyes

 

So, what's your point?

 

I don't know how many times the same thing needs to be explained to you and your friends. No one is arguing that Peters is not regarded as one of the top LTs in the game and will get paid commensurately with that. The argument is that his agent is giving him bad advice, because Ralph Wilson does not succumb to hold out pressure, especially when he has all the leverage. Never has, never will. All your examples point that Ralph is willing to pay players before their contracts are up, as long as they play by his rules, because it's his team and his money. I like when people talk about good faith, Peters' original extension is an after thought. How about the fact that he was overpaid for 2 years? How about good faith to a team that's saved him from a life of burger flipping?

 

So please spare me the talk that Peters is slighted by the big bad racist owner. The team gave him a chance. They have paid him very well to now, and will likely pay him a lot more in the future. But sitting out camp is not going to get it done with this owner.

 

So you can stomp your feet all you want, but the bottom line is that Peters is getting bad advice from an aggressive agent.

Why does this get lost on people like you?

 

I fully agree that the advice that his agent is giving him is not the best. Whether it's the worst is debatable.

 

Going to camp as you all suggest will cure things hasn't done a thing for Evans now has it?

 

Read post #421 here:

 

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...8571&st=420

 

You guys are so defensive of the team that once again your support cutting off your arm to spite your hand.

 

YES, Peters is getting bad advice, but if you think that this team is going to renegotiate Peters because Brandon, in his first months as GM, says so, you're equally naive. They want Peters to play out at least this year. But they didn't make Butler play it out.

 

Meanwhile, of the 9 starting linemen we have, one of which a DT isn't even known yet, Peters is the sixth highest paid (or comparable) one after Kelsay, Schobel, Walker, Dockery and on par now with Butler and Williams.

 

Seems like you think that's fair. Well Butler played OK in his first season of starting and deserved a raise. Great, give him a raise. But why doesn't that apply to Peters who has performed exceedingly well at LT, a far more critical position, on a contract that he originally negotiated as he was playing RT.

 

I don't understand it. You guys are all for risky decisions like McGahee, giving Schobel the world at 30 years old, giving players that may be backups far more than they'd get from just about all other teams, but for a player that really could very well be the lynchpin in the entire mechanism of our success, you take the approach of one of the most bungling front offices in the entire league and obviously one of the worst that this team has ever seen.

 

I'm just not understanding it as you guys make it all about me and others like me.

 

Fine, screw Peters, let him sit. Great, and that gets us what now exactly? A 9th straight season without playoffs, a 4th straight losing season and needless to say a 13th straight year without a playoff win for what, close to a league record there.

 

Yeah, as long as we play hardball with Peters and show him, it's ALL worth it. Yeah, great.

 

But your and others like you's blindness towards the impact of Peters not being here prevents you from seeing that. Either that or you think that an offense that couldn't put up more than one TD per game on average last year will be far better without one of the better LTs in the league. Sure, that makes sense too. /sarcasm.

 

See what you will and continue to support the team on this, the same team that keeps failing you. But when the season ends, please, let's quit the pissing and moaning because you will have supported the team through all of this.

[krazykat]

Obviously there are any number of aspects that were a significant part of the horrendous statistical yardage production such as:

 

1. The O scheme designed and called by Fairchild (in particular we simply did not seem to run enough pass plays which tried to use the TE and RBs effectively as receivers. It would be one thing if they all were suffering a case of the droppsies similar to Reed's horrible personal streak his second year, but the problem with this aspect IMHO was not players not catching the ball but simply a lame O scheme.

2. One of Marv's favorite cliches which actually has some truth to it is that when a team has 2 starting QBs it has no starting QB. Due to injury and then some uncertainty this offense never really had consistent leadership.

3. The WR situation was jumbled at best and it was clear at draft time we needed to find a #2.

4. The ST portion of the game in terms of coverage was at the very least troubled and this resulted in a number of poor play starts.

5. The team led the NFL in players who were put on the IR, but in addition we suffered significant lost time by our RB starter and by both QBs which were not bad enough to end their season but influenced and hurt their play.

6. OL performance.

 

Of these 6 I think you are looking at thing incorrectly if you judge the OL play as being the main reason for our poor O performance.

Of course!

 

 

We may see this year.

[krazykat]

A great discussion here! Lots of interesting point, counter-point. The only thing that I might chime in on is the "personal" aspect of it, meaning that I doubt that it's as "insulting" and "personal" as some might think. With the amount of money being potentially thrown around here, there's going to be a lot of posturing. Whether it's really "personal" in the fan's sense of the word? I doubt it. Jason is a professional athlete with a pretty good agent. He understands that this is ultimately a business and that he's only one play away from no longer being able to do this for a living. Jason's agent is trying to get as much money as possible for his player. That's his job. Brandon's job is to try to make a deal that's as reasonable as possible for his team. And while it's true that Ralph will more often than not come down on the "cheap" side, very few NFL owners have limitless amounts of money to throw around. Some history to back up my points:

 

The now legendary negotiating tactics between Bill Polian and Jim Kelly and his agent. Bill is notoriously emotional, and goes to extremes to prove his point. But in the long run,

Kelly got his money and Bill got the concessions he wanted. It worked out pretty well.

 

More recently: Lance Briggs in Chicago. At one point, Lance was on record as saying he would never play for the Bears again. He's still there, he got his money, and the Bears got some of the conessions they wanted.

 

I'm not saying this will automatically happen with Peters, but chances are that they'll work it out.

 

GO BILLS

Very good post.

 

My problem through this is that once again we have a team throwing money at players like Bennie Anderson, Mike Gandy, Peerless Price, etc. but ignoring players like Evans and Peters.

 

Some seem to think that's wise, but I'm thinking that if Butler ever ends up more than say Ross Tucker ever did here I will be surprised. Otherwise it's only the opinion of posters that seem to suggest it won't. There's certainly no evidence to back up the notion that he was deserving of a contract paying him $3M/year.

 

Everyone including Bills fans thought that a similar contract, in fact a bigger one, was way too much for Kyle Williams too. I don't think he'll ever end up historically remembered anymore than say Tim Anderson was. I consider both players to be just the next flash in the pan. Sure, I could be wrong. But what we know as a fact is that both Evans and Peters, both at the forefront of their primes, have both done more and offer more to this club for the future.

 

IMO the money we gave Williams, Johnson, and Butler would have been better served the team had we given it to Evans an Peters and made due for DT backups and a RG elsewhere for a little less. JMO, but we have data on Peters and Evans suggesting that both have the potential to be top-10 if not top-5 at their positions.

 

Meanwhile we slight Peters and Evans. Smart? We'll see, but this organization's personnel and FO really can't be confused with one that's been smart over the last decade or so. And little has changed within it.

[GG]

Why does this get lost on people like you?

 

I fully agree that the advice that his agent is giving him is not the best. Whether it's the worst is debatable.

 

Going to camp as you all suggest will cure things hasn't done a thing for Evans now has it?

 

Read post #421 here:

 

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...8571&st=420

 

You guys are so defensive of the team that once again your support cutting off your arm to spite your hand.

 

YES, Peters is getting bad advice, but if you think that this team is going to renegotiate Peters because Brandon, in his first months as GM, says so, you're equally naive. They want Peters to play out at least this year. But they didn't make Butler play it out.

 

Meanwhile, of the 9 starting linemen we have, one of which a DT isn't even known yet, Peters is the sixth highest paid (or comparable) one after Kelsay, Schobel, Walker, Dockery and on par now with Butler and Williams.

 

Seems like you think that's fair. Well Butler played OK in his first season of starting and deserved a raise. Great, give him a raise. But why doesn't that apply to Peters who has performed exceedingly well at LT, a far more critical position, on a contract that he originally negotiated as he was playing RT.

 

I don't understand it. You guys are all for risky decisions like McGahee, giving Schobel the world at 30 years old, giving players that may be backups far more than they'd get from just about all other teams, but for a player that really could very well be the lynchpin in the entire mechanism of our success, you take the approach of one of the most bungling front offices in the entire league and obviously one of the worst that this team has ever seen.

 

I'm just not understanding it as you guys make it all about me and others like me.

 

Fine, screw Peters, let him sit. Great, and that gets us what now exactly? A 9th straight season without playoffs, a 4th straight losing season and needless to say a 13th straight year without a playoff win for what, close to a league record there.

 

Yeah, as long as we play hardball with Peters and show him, it's ALL worth it. Yeah, great.

 

But your and others like you's blindness towards the impact of Peters not being here prevents you from seeing that. Either that or you think that an offense that couldn't put up more than one TD per game on average last year will be far better without one of the better LTs in the league. Sure, that makes sense too. /sarcasm.

 

See what you will and continue to support the team on this, the same team that keeps failing you. But when the season ends, please, let's quit the pissing and moaning because you will have supported the team through all of this.

 

It's not so hard to see that each case is different from Peters, because the money involved in Peters' case will dwarf all other signings. It's also not hard to see that there are ongoing talks with Evans about extending, but that situation is also different because Evans knows that all he has to do is put up big numbers in '08 and he WILL get paid in '09. It's also not hard to see that Parker's negotiating strategy is not the kind that Bills have historically embraced.

 

And it also very obvious that you're still stomping your feet for the owner to do something that he's never one in his life. Maybe if you fly to Detroit and protest his house, he will listen to you.