The Senator Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Oh, and how much of that do you think was because he missed a lot of training camp? Good point - how badly would some rip Russ Brandon for giving Jason Peters a nice, fat, long-term extension only to have an out-of-shape Peters blow out a knee, reinjure his groin, or re-aggravate his hernia after a week in camp? What is the treatment of a sports hernia? There are no treatments that have been shown to be effective for sports hernia other than surgery. That said, the initial treatment of a sports hernia is always conservative in hopes that the symptoms will resolve. Resting from activity, anti-inflammatory medications, ice treatments, and physical therapy can all be tried in an effort to alleviate the patient's symptoms. If these measures do not relieve the symptoms of a sports hernia, surgery may be recommended to repair the weakened area of the abdominal wall. In number of studies have shown between 65% and 90% of athletes are able to return to their activity after surgery for a sports hernia. Rehabilitation from surgery for a sports hernia usually takes about eight weeks. Link If I'm Russ Brandon, I want to be sure Peters is in that 65-90% that are able to return, not the 10-35% that can't. The longer Peters stays out, the more suspicious I become.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Good point - how badly would some rip Russ Brandon for giving Jason Peters a nice, fat, long-term extension only to have an out-of-shape Peters blow out a knee, reinjure his groin, or re-aggravate his hernia after a week in camp? What is the treatment of a sports hernia? There are no treatments that have been shown to be effective for sports hernia other than surgery. That said, the initial treatment of a sports hernia is always conservative in hopes that the symptoms will resolve. Resting from activity, anti-inflammatory medications, ice treatments, and physical therapy can all be tried in an effort to alleviate the patient's symptoms. If these measures do not relieve the symptoms of a sports hernia, surgery may be recommended to repair the weakened area of the abdominal wall. In number of studies have shown between 65% and 90% of athletes are able to return to their activity after surgery for a sports hernia. Rehabilitation from surgery for a sports hernia usually takes about eight weeks. If I'm Russ Brandon, I want to be sure Peters is in that 65-90% that are able to return, not the 10-35% that can't. The longer Peters stays out, the more suspicious I become. There are five and a half weeks before the season. I expect Peters is probably in pretty good shape right now and there is really zero reason to believe he's not. He's been a very hard worker since he came here. He could be in camp any day (not saying he will but he knows it's a distinct possibility and IMO he is going to report soon).
The Senator Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 There are five and a half weeks before the season. I expect Peters is probably in pretty good shape right now and there is really zero reason to believe he's not. He's been a very hard worker since he came here. He could be in camp any day (not saying he will but he knows it's a distinct possibility and IMO he is going to report soon). Actually there's zero reason to believe he's not in shape, but also zero reason to believe he is - since no one has seen the guy! But I agree - he'll be in camp by next Fri., August 8th, without a new contract, for reasons already discussed elsewhere.
BillsVet Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Actually there's zero reason to believe he's not in shape, but also zero reason to believe he is - since no one has seen the guy! But I agree - he'll be in camp by next Fri., August 8th, without a new contract, for reasons already discussed elsewhere. What does Peters care about getting credit for a season toward being a UFA? He's seeking a long term deal which would, at it's conclusion, give him somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 seasons of NFL service. This isn't Devin Hester revisited, who knew the game was up, and his holdout carried very little in the way of a threat. Peters already has a long term moderate sized NFL contract, and is a little better off than Hester's 445k per rookie deal. NFL stars typically get 2-3 decent contracts, and this would be Peters second. If it's six years, he'll be 32 if it goes the entire way.
Mickey Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Good point - how badly would some rip Russ Brandon for giving Jason Peters a nice, fat, long-term extension only to have an out-of-shape Peters blow out a knee, reinjure his groin, or re-aggravate his hernia after a week in camp? What is the treatment of a sports hernia? There are no treatments that have been shown to be effective for sports hernia other than surgery. That said, the initial treatment of a sports hernia is always conservative in hopes that the symptoms will resolve. Resting from activity, anti-inflammatory medications, ice treatments, and physical therapy can all be tried in an effort to alleviate the patient's symptoms. If these measures do not relieve the symptoms of a sports hernia, surgery may be recommended to repair the weakened area of the abdominal wall. In number of studies have shown between 65% and 90% of athletes are able to return to their activity after surgery for a sports hernia. Rehabilitation from surgery for a sports hernia usually takes about eight weeks. Link If I'm Russ Brandon, I want to be sure Peters is in that 65-90% that are able to return, not the 10-35% that can't. The longer Peters stays out, the more suspicious I become. Another, more indepth article about the surgical stats points out that 80% of those not returning to full activity after surgery had overlapping problems and further, the studies were not done properly: Rates of surgical success, defined as a full return to preinjury activity levels, have been reported to be 63% (16), 72% (5), 80% (17), and 93% (7). However, none of these studies was a randomized, controlled trial. Eighty percent of the athletes in these series who were not cured by surgery may have had alternative or additional treatable diagnoses (18), which suggests the importance of identifying and treating overlapping diagnoses before surgery. Sports Hernia Further, there is a new procedure done laproscopically with better success ratios and shorter recovery times. Like the one LJ Smith had on May 31st that got him on the field for full contact drills just last tuesday: "Until recently, the only way to treat this condition was an invasive procedure that required 10 to 12 weeks of healing time. However, Dr. Richard Cattey of the Milwaukee Institute of Minimally Invasive Surgery (MIMIS) at Columbia St. Mary's hospital is one of the handful of doctors who is now performing laparoscopic surgery to treat athletic pubalgia. This minimally invasive procedure requires shortened recovery time, and allows a quicker return to sports training. Patients can return to normal activity in four to five days and can usually return to their previous level of sports activity in four weeks. " Dr. Cattey "According to Dr. Cattey, who has a 96 percent success rate for this type of surgery, laparoscopic repair of sports hernias is a precise, surgical procedure developed by surgeons at the Milwaukee Institute of Minimally Invasive Surgery. It’s only performed by a few surgeons worldwide." New Procedure Its kind of moot anyway. Every contract, new or extended, can and are negotiated contingent on the players health. Teams never sign contracts that commit them without being able to verify their fitness. Worry about his injury is not the problem, the money is the problem. Once they work that out, he will be on the first plane and they can poke and prod him all they want. If he isn't fit, the deals is off. I am sure the team has all of his medical records, his surgeon's phone number, his therepaist cell number and everything else they need to monitor his health.
krazykat Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Yep. Either that or he comes in in a week or two, dominates like he should and likely will, ends up in the Pro Bowl like he should and probably will, and pretty much forces the Bills to make him one of the top paid OL in the league next year. With a lot of lost good will between the Bills and Peters. I can't imagine that the team is going to give an extension without either contractual or field reassurances that Peters is fine. Still, the Bills are playing with fire.
The Senator Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 What does Peters care about getting credit for a season toward being a UFA? He's seeking a long term deal which would, at it's conclusion, give him somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 seasons of NFL service. He's not gonna get a long term deal 'til he gets his ass to camp, period.
The Senator Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 If you read the rest of that article, you'd see that among those who didn't recover fully, 80% of them had other problems. I did read the rest of the article, but thanks for pointing out that (good heavens!) Peters may also be in that 80%. How many other problems might he have? Now I really want to see him in camp before extending or increasing his contract!
BillsVet Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 He's not gonna get a long term deal 'til he gets his ass to camp, period. I'm not so sure the Bills can afford to play without him. You and I both know he'll report, but he's sure scaring a lot of fans, specifically those who realize without him it's Walker at LT and Chambers starting at RT. I still believe no long term deal will happen this year, given how much the team will have to earmark for Evans. Peters can report in "good faith" and still play for his current salary. I've got to believe that Peters think he needs more than a "we'll see" approach for him to show up.
BADOLBILZ Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Another thing that needs to be mentioned in this discussion is that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY if Peters does come into camp that the Bills are going to "negotiate in good faith". So when they say he needs to just come in and then we will talk, it's really kind of disingenuous to me, and is more for the fans and other players than the agent and player. They probably have no intention of giving Peters what he is worth this year, and Parker knows it. Which is why I think Parker is just laying the groundwork this year for the holdout that will come next year, when Peters will likely get his big contract. If he caves early this year, it will hurt him next year. If Peters comes into camp, and Parker says "Okay, we did what you asked. He's here and he's ready. We want him to be paid Jake Long money (five-year, $57.75 million contract with $30 million guaranteed). The Bills are going to say. "No chance. He has three years left. We'll give you Howie Long money. If you want Jake Long money, talk to us in a year or two". So it's kinda bullschitt IMO for us to say he should just come in and the Bills would take care of him when they won't. It's a completely different situation than Butler or McGee or even Schobel because it's SO much money. EDIT: This is what Sal Maiorana said in his blog today: Great post. The Bills are used to being VERY generous extending their own players, but they haven't had a player THIS good stuck in the middle of such an off-market value deal. They naturally want to get more play at that bargain rate to justify the risk they took, but the guy has far exceeded that deal with his play. This isn't like Angelo Crowell going from ST to being a good starting LB, Peters has gone from being a first year RT to being arguably the best LT in the game. Like you said, the Bills probably don't have any intention of making him the top paid LT in the game, and if he were available in TRADE, not just at no compensation in free agency, he would become the highest paid OT in the NFL in a heartbeat. So why should they take a lesser deal? IMO, Peters will eventually report to camp and probably be a good teammate this season, but in the current NFL, bad behavior does not prevent great players from getting paid and that certainly emboldens players and their agents.
krazykat Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Great post. The Bills are used to being VERY generous extending their own players, but they haven't had a player THIS good stuck in the middle of such an off-market value deal. They naturally want to get more play at that bargain rate to justify the risk they took, but the guy has far exceeded that deal with his play. This isn't like Angelo Crowell going from ST to being a good starting LB, Peters has gone from being a first year RT to being arguably the best LT in the game. Like you said, the Bills probably don't have any intention of making him the top paid LT in the game, and if he were available in TRADE, not just at no compensation in free agency, he would become the highest paid OT in the NFL in a heartbeat. So why should they take a lesser deal? IMO, Peters will eventually report to camp and probably be a good teammate this season, but in the current NFL, bad behavior does not prevent great players from getting paid and that certainly emboldens players and their agents. I don't know man, I doubt he would become the highest paid OT in the NFL although who knows, all it takes is one team to make that offer. In that sense IMO Peters is overrated. He's good and clearly our best lineman, and a top half LT, but he seemed to have slipped some last year and he's got another season or two of top LT play to cement himself as a top-5 LT in the NFL IMO. Again, and where many seem to be missing the boat, it's all relative to what the team has done. We didn't force Brad Butler, who's started for one season with unspectacular results, to play his contract out this year and next and gave him pretty much what Peters is getting. Same for Kyle Williams who may not even start this year. Then on top of that we signed a backup DT Spencer Johnson to a similar deal and about what Peters is making on a per annum basis now. It's clear that at least one of the two, Williams or Johnson will be a backup. When you throw that kind of money around and don't pay a guy that has established himself as a top-half LT in this league, probably a little higher, and is playing on a contract he got as a RT, then it makes a statement which many here seem to argue implicitly for reasons that are unclear.
gobillsinytown Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 A great discussion here! Lots of interesting point, counter-point. The only thing that I might chime in on is the "personal" aspect of it, meaning that I doubt that it's as "insulting" and "personal" as some might think. With the amount of money being potentially thrown around here, there's going to be a lot of posturing. Whether it's really "personal" in the fan's sense of the word? I doubt it. Jason is a professional athlete with a pretty good agent. He understands that this is ultimately a business and that he's only one play away from no longer being able to do this for a living. Jason's agent is trying to get as much money as possible for his player. That's his job. Brandon's job is to try to make a deal that's as reasonable as possible for his team. And while it's true that Ralph will more often than not come down on the "cheap" side, very few NFL owners have limitless amounts of money to throw around. Some history to back up my points: The now legendary negotiating tactics between Bill Polian and Jim Kelly and his agent. Bill is notoriously emotional, and goes to extremes to prove his point. But in the long run, Kelly got his money and Bill got the concessions he wanted. It worked out pretty well. More recently: Lance Briggs in Chicago. At one point, Lance was on record as saying he would never play for the Bears again. He's still there, he got his money, and the Bears got some of the conessions they wanted. I'm not saying this will automatically happen with Peters, but chances are that they'll work it out. GO BILLS
Bill from NYC Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 Nor should they. The Walter Jones', Jonathon Ogden's, and Orlando Pace's of the world didn't get their mega deals after just ONE pro bowl season. But you see Dog Man, they got their mega-bucks BEFORE one pro bowl season, and Pace was a holdout. They were early first round picks; Pace was the #1 overall. The Rams even traded up for him. Think about what he cost them and you know what? A great LT is worth it. Teams made a drastic error when they skipped over Peters in the draft. The Bills, who continuously neglect the OL and waste picks on transient defensive backs, lucked into him. Now, while holding baskets of cash and cap room, it is time to pay up. The names you listed above played a very prominent role in taking their teams to the superbowl. Peters can do this for us. Not this year, but down the road. We need this player. Our franchise is fragile. It is habitually mismanaged and poorly coached. Jauron is a coach that nobody wanted who was hired by a GM that nobody wanted. Who is Brandon? Our QB and star RB are 2nd year players. They will not improve as much sans Jason Peters. It isn't possible. Again, it is time to pay up.
Dan Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 Yep. Either that or he comes in in a week or two, dominates like he should and likely will, ends up in the Pro Bowl like he should and probably will, and pretty much forces the Bills to make him one of the top paid OL in the league next year. I would offer that if Peters does that... with or without the current hold out... the FO would willingly make him one of the top paid OL in the league. There would be little forcing involved.
Zulu Cthulhu Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 I would offer that if Peters does that... with or without the current hold out... the FO would willingly make him one of the top paid OL in the league. There would be little forcing involved. THE END...and thank you Dan for the compliment earlier in the post...I think this debate has been debated to death by now 6 pages later, I know I don't post much...I'm a believer in quality over quantity sorry. Obviously there's going to be folks just in love with Peters (kat, BillinNYC) who don't give a **** what stupid friggin moves he does in the off-season - we NEED him, bottom line. Speaking practically I really can't disagree, no one of our possible replacements for Peters comes close to his overall skill, agility, etc... I tend to look at the big picture; I don't care how sweet any one (1), I'll repeat that, ONE, player is on a 53 man roster, you never cave to the BS Peters' agent is pulling right now. Some think the Bills are gambling by doing this and heads will roll if we don't have our signature OT: newsflash --- it won't. What also won't happen is Peters holding out for a full season. This whole thread of posts will be committed to the dust in less than a week when Peters reports to camp sometime next week. Hey, I don't have anything against Peters - he's a great LT, a revelation at that position for the Bills. That doesn't change the fact he's got a BS agent who doesn't really know what he's doing. Peters might as well hire Master P.
eball Posted August 1, 2008 Author Posted August 1, 2008 Dr. Richard Cattey of the Milwaukee Institute of Minimally Invasive Surgery (MIMIS) at Columbia St. Mary's hospital is one of the handful of doctors who is now performing laparoscopic surgery to treat athletic pubalgia. That just doesn't sound good.
eball Posted August 1, 2008 Author Posted August 1, 2008 Our QB and star RB are 2nd year players. They will not improve as much sans Jason Peters. It isn't possible. Again, it is time to pay up. One order of hyperbole with a side of ridiculous exaggeration, coming up!
Zulu Cthulhu Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 That just doesn't sound good. It's the medical term for removing a blood-sucking dumbass agent from your vocal cords and anus at the exact same time...
Zulu Cthulhu Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 It's the medical term for removing a blood-sucking dumbass agent from your vocal cords and anus at the exact same time... eball and Dan..you are the reason I stopped reading and started posting two years ago...Kelly too, even though he's recently lost his mind
Dan Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 eball and Dan..you are the reason I stopped reading and started posting two years ago...Kelly too, even though he's recently lost his mind And thank you for the complements as well. Post more often.... its the only way to diminish the negative impact of the trolls. THE END...and thank you Dan for the compliment earlier in the post...I think this debate has been debated to death by now 6 pages later, I know I don't post much...I'm a believer in quality over quantity sorry. Obviously there's going to be folks just in love with Peters (kat, BillinNYC) who don't give a **** what stupid friggin moves he does in the off-season - we NEED him, bottom line. Speaking practically I really can't disagree, no one of our possible replacements for Peters comes close to his overall skill, agility, etc... I tend to look at the big picture; I don't care how sweet any one (1), I'll repeat that, ONE, player is on a 53 man roster, you never cave to the BS Peters' agent is pulling right now. Some think the Bills are gambling by doing this and heads will roll if we don't have our signature OT: newsflash --- it won't. What also won't happen is Peters holding out for a full season. This whole thread of posts will be committed to the dust in less than a week when Peters reports to camp sometime next week. Hey, I don't have anything against Peters - he's a great LT, a revelation at that position for the Bills. That doesn't change the fact he's got a BS agent who doesn't really know what he's doing. Peters might as well hire Master P. Once again, I completely agree with you on this topic. Peters IS good and we do need him. But no one player is greater than the team. And, right now, that's how he's acting - as though he's better than the team. And this is precisely the big picture that some posters seem to be neglecting.
Recommended Posts