Here's what I don't understand

[krazykat]

...you done? Blow it out of proportion to make your point, go ahead. Never did I suggest that the injury was career threatening. The injury doesn't have to be career threatening to make a team (justifiably) hesitant to just hand over money to a guy who ended the previous year on IR. Maybe Peters is fine, 100% and ready to go. Maybe he's even stronger and quicker than last year. Show me then, Jason. Show your teammates, show Brandon and Jauron you are. Go to camp, practice, and get your money. At least kat will shut up then for a couple of days, until he finds another reason to bash the FO.

Backpeddling I see.

 

Have they said that that would be adequate? Has Brandon publicly stated or even privately stated that if Peters gets checked out by the team's physicians and can run some simple drills to show that he has nothing major wrong with him that he will negotiate with him? No. Sure hasn't. Kinda makes your point utterly moot.

 

So your point then remains what Brandon's is. Show up to camp and risk injury or we're not talking. Peters and his agent say fine, you have more to lose than we do, and they're right, and are holding out.

 

So that's where we are.

[krazykat]

Actually the Bills are playing it pretty well as of now. It doesn't mean much if Peters rests up the next few weeks, and the Bills are going to cough up some money at the end of the game. This is a dance and I would be surpised if a deal isn't fashioned before the start of the season.

Maybe, but Brandon will have already lost credibility at that point and I'm not sure that would be good for the organization. That's the problem when you come out with such hardline positions.

 

The Bills made this mess, not Peters. That's the way I see it. As a result it's up to the team to make the first serious concession in this negotiation and IMO that means being willing to just talk prior to Peters coming to camp. They can find out exactly what he'll be happy with and then say OK, run some drills, see the doctors, and even put some preseason injury clauses in there that will assure the team that he's fine now. If he gets hurt later, TFB, that's the NFL.

 

But Peters isn't the one that's been writing big checks to backups and players that are getting paid what he gets to not even start or to starters that don't bring half of what he does and is capable of bringing.

[Billadelphia]

Boy, you're right on top of things, huh. Do you even know what he had surgery on? I mean what the surgery was for?

 

This isn't even worth addressing.

 

And you know, like I've said in other posts, the team can feel free to ask him to come to OBD and run some drills such as "jogging." If at that point, and maybe it's happened and I've just missed it, he refuses, well then perhaps there's cause for concern.

 

But as of now I read nothing that an offer to evaluate him without his risking injury on the field has even been made.

 

And you know, you may very well be right, but until he begins refusing to even show up for a physical I'd like to see our team reach out a little bit more than insisting he show up and play.

 

Is Peters wrong? Probably. But the team is gonna be in a world of hurt if this continues.

 

He had surgery to repair a sports hernia.

 

http://buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=5823

 

It says right in the article that it has a high rate of success for recovery, which Bills fans should take comfort in. However, when it comes time to dish out millions of dollars, are you going to go off of other people success rate or would you want to see for yourself what your investment is capable of?

 

Below is an article on how a sports hernia is repaired and the rehab afterwards:

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70716133056.htm

The surgery involves a two-inch incision to remove some of the damaged muscle tissue and instead of a primary repair with stitches, tension-free mesh is used to strengthen and reinforce the area. "We think the mesh provides considerable support to let the area heal," Brunt says. "Because there's no tension on the repair, this helps athletes return to full physical activity faster than surgery with a sutured repair alone."

 

The rehabilitation protocol used in the study was developed by Ray Barile, an athletic trainer for the St. Louis Blues hockey team. The multistep, graduated program is more structured than others used to return athletes to activity after groin surgery. It starts with early walking and movement and gradually moves athletes to resistance and core muscle building before progressing to speed and functional activities. Athletic trainers, physical therapists and athletes appear to have the most success when they are given well-structured guidelines about what can and can't be expected or allowed at each stage after hernia surgery, Brunt says.

 

You can't sit there and reason why the Bills should pay him prior to seeing if he even took the right steps to rehab this. How do we know that he's capable of pushing around 300+ pound lineman anymore?

 

Actually, thats an easy question: line him up against Stroud and the rest of our DLine and let him show you. Then you write a contract for $60MM.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Backpeddling I see.

 

Have they said that that would be adequate? Has Brandon publicly stated or even privately stated that if Peters gets checked out by the team's physicians and can run some simple drills to show that he has nothing major wrong with him that he will negotiate with him? No. Sure hasn't. Kinda makes your point utterly moot.

 

So your point then remains what Brandon's is. Show up to camp and risk injury or we're not talking. Peters and his agent say fine, you have more to lose than we do, and they're right, and are holding out.

 

So that's where we are.

 

No not backpeddling at all. And no my point is not moot. Do do know the definition of that word? What's moot is this "risk" you keep spouting about. That risk is already present in front of the minds of all parties involved: Peters, Parker, the Bills, everybody. It's present because it's already occurred -- he was injured last season. So I guess you're of the opinion that the Bills should assume 100% of the risk in Peters' case, because he had one great season? I got ya...the Bills assume all the risk and shell out a mint to this guy and Peters' should assume none of it, because he *might* get re-injured in camp?

 

Like I've said you would make one savvy businessman...and your obviously a great Bills fan too.

 

By the way, this FO did not let Williams or R. Brown "walk"

[Cugalabanza]

My two cents…

 

I've read through all the arguments and there are a lot of good points. Yes, the market clearly dictates that Peters should get more money. But one fact remains that cannot be argued away: Brandon has made it clear that he will renegotiate if Peters will simply JOIN HIS TEAM ON THE FUGGING FIELD!

 

Time is of the essence. We need our top O-line in place getting valuable reps. I agree with the poster who said in another thread, "Enough is enough--Peters, get in camp NOW!"

[Fan in Chicago]

Great post!

 

Let's suppose you're best friend wins a multi-million dollar lottery and starts giving all kinds of people that he barely knows or are just acquaintences $10k apiece but gives you, his best buddy for a long time nothing. How would that make you feel? Does he owe you something? No, obviously not. But by handing out money to people that he cares less about and who have done less for him over the years and not giving you a dime, he makes a statement, no?

 

It's the same thing here.

 

The analogy according to me is if a new hire gets more money than, say, a 10 year old veteran. That veteran is then justified in going to his boss and requesting pay equity or better because he has already proven himself to be invaluable to an organization. However, it would not be correct for that employee to stop reporting to work during team preparations for a major upcoming project until he gets said raise. Doing so hurts the team and the start of the project. This behavior dictates whether or not he is a team player. If anything, the Bills have treated players in good faith and have come through - recall the promise not to franchise Nate Clements for a second time and doing exactly that. Hence, there is no track record to say that the Bills will promise to negotiate with Peters in camp and not do so. Peters OTOH is demanding a raise for the second time in 2 years and acting more belligerent this time around.

[kota]

The Bills stance on this subject is similar to other clubs who are having holdout players. The Rams told Steven Jackson to report then they would speak to him. I believe Jackson was hurt last year as well. Hester didn't get his new deal until he reported to camp. Urlacher got a new deal but he showed up to Minicamp and training camp ontime. Tommy Harris got a new deal and showed up to do everything. The Packers aren't getting anywhere with Ryan Grannt.

 

In listening to Sirius all the time It's almost unanimous that people believe the players need to show committment to the club. Committiment in willing to play out their current deal. Pat Kirwan who was the GM for the Jets believes the Bills stance is the best one. Jason Peters stands to lose 405,000 for holding out one month. If he sits out the season he loses game checks worth 3.5 million dollars plus by sitting out it essentially adds another year to his contract. The Bills hold all the cards in regards to the player. Sooner or later Jason Peters is going to have to show his face.

 

I personally think Peters is the best LT in football and deserves the money. He is the anchor of the line and without him the Bills are in trouble. But, Peters needs to show up to camp and prove that he is healthy and in shape.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

The Bills stance on this subject is similar to other clubs who are having holdout players. The Rams told Steven Jackson to report then they would speak to him. I believe Jackson was hurt last year as well. Hester didn't get his new deal until he reported to camp. Urlacher got a new deal but he showed up to Minicamp and training camp ontime. Tommy Harris got a new deal and showed up to do everything. The Packers aren't getting anywhere with Ryan Grannt.

 

In listening to Sirius all the time It's almost unanimous that people believe the players need to show committment to the club. Committiment in willing to play out their current deal. Pat Kirwan who was the GM for the Jets believes the Bills stance is the best one. Jason Peters stands to lose 405,000 for holding out one month. If he sits out the season he loses game checks worth 3.5 million dollars plus by sitting out it essentially adds another year to his contract. The Bills hold all the cards in regards to the player. Sooner or later Jason Peters is going to have to show his face.

 

I personally think Peters is the best LT in football and deserves the money. He is the anchor of the line and without him the Bills are in trouble. But, Peters needs to show up to camp and prove that he is healthy and in shape.

 

Kota stop making sense and explaining how teams run their businesses in the real world -- kat's brain will melt.

[colin]

Kota stop making sense and explaining how teams run their businesses in the real world -- kat's brain will melt.

 

lol, 4 realz.

 

there is (was) this guy on other boards called wys wings. he was insane. he picked and chose what parts of reality to use, and what parts to edit. he tried to write to impress you, but just made you want to rub glass in your eyes. he was much better than kat, who might be him but more insane.

[Kelly the Dog]

This is different. Unlike all of the other players mentioned, the Bills aren't going to pay Peters what he is worth right now, even if he is in camp. Everyone seems to be forgetting or ignoring that. Here, again, is Sal Maiorana in his blog today. There is zero reason to not believe this. Does anyone thing the Bills are prepared this pre-season to make Peters amongst the highest paid LT in the league, OR that Peters is not asking to be paid as such right now?

A Bills official confirmed to me the other day that talks with Peters are almost non-existent and that the team is demanding he play at least this season under the five-year contract extension that he signed in 2006 which will pay him $3.25 million in base salary this year.

[AKC]

As it has been noted in other threads, Parker has other holdouts in the league.... maybe he is trying a " new innovative" approach and advising players to hold out without getting too in depth with the team on what they want? Rosenhaus and his players try to avoid holdouts, but maybe Parker thinks it's the way to go for his guys

 

It's nothing new for Parker-

 

Here are some of his clients who have held out under him:

 

Hines Ward

Richard Seymour

Cedric Benson

Walter Jones

Corey Simon

Shawn Springs

Peter Boulware

Chris Perry

 

And this blog suggests he's embraced the tactic in similar form for quite a while-

 

Holdout Parker

[Billadelphia]

This is different. Unlike all of the other players mentioned, the Bills aren't going to pay Peters what he is worth right now, even if he is in camp. Everyone seems to be forgetting or ignoring that. Here, again, is Sal Maiorana in his blog today. There is zero reason to not believe this. Does anyone thing the Bills are prepared this pre-season to make Peters amongst the highest paid LT in the league, OR that Peters is not asking to be paid as such right now?

 

But what will he gain by holding out then? If they aren't going to pay him regardless, then why even hold out?

 

They won't cut him. They won't negotiate his contract. He can't just sit out for 3 years and then go elsewhere. Whats his plan if its an absolute that they aren't going to give him a new contract?

 

Its just another reason to get into camp, play the year, prove that you're healthy, and become the highest paid LT in football come January.

[PromoTheRobot]

But what will he gain by holding out then? If they aren't going to pay him regardless, then why even hold out?

 

They won't cut him. They won't negotiate his contract. He can't just sit out for 3 years and then go elsewhere. Whats his plan if its an absolute that they aren't going to give him a new contract?

 

Its just another reason to get into camp, play the year, prove that you're healthy, and become the highest paid LT in football come January.

The injury theory looms ever larger.

 

PTR

[Kelly the Dog]

But what will he gain by holding out then? If they aren't going to pay him regardless, then why even hold out?

 

They won't cut him. They won't negotiate his contract. He can't just sit out for 3 years and then go elsewhere. Whats his plan if its an absolute that they aren't going to give him a new contract?

 

Its just another reason to get into camp, play the year, prove that you're healthy, and become the highest paid LT in football come January.

Leverage for next year. Show he's serious. Show the Bills how bad his back-ups are and how much they need him. See if the Bills will flinch before they should. Otherwise he just comes to camp and gets nothing, except his salary for this year, and plays for a third of what he's worth, and the third most on his line. It's the only card he can play and he's playing it.

[Kelly the Dog]

The injury theory looms ever larger.

 

PTR

IMO that's impossible. First, what if the Bills renegotiated. Do you think they are not going to make sure he's 100% before they sign him to a 60 million contract? Or that if he is not 100% they wouldn't know that? Or when it becomes apparent in two days that he is not 100% that Eugene Parker would not be barred from the league? If he had an injury, this is not what would be happening.

[eball]

Another thing that needs to be mentioned in this discussion is that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY if Peters does come into camp that the Bills are going to "negotiate in good faith". So when they say he needs to just come in and then we will talk, it's really kind of disingenuous to me, and is more for the fans and other players than the agent and player.

 

They probably have no intention of giving Peters what he is worth this year, and Parker knows it. Which is why I think Parker is just laying the groundwork this year for the holdout that will come next year, when Peters will likely get his big contract. If he caves early this year, it will hurt him next year.

 

If Peters comes into camp, and Parker says "Okay, we did what you asked. He's here and he's ready. We want him to be paid Jake Long money (five-year, $57.75 million contract with $30 million guaranteed). The Bills are going to say. "No chance. He has three years left. We'll give you Howie Long money. If you want Jake Long money, talk to us in a year or two". So it's kinda bullschitt IMO for us to say he should just come in and the Bills would take care of him when they won't. It's a completely different situation than Butler or McGee or even Schobel because it's SO much money.

 

EDIT: This is what Sal Maiorana said in his blog today:

Kelly, it makes no sense for Parker to hold Peters out right now if he believes the Bills will not negotiate a pay raise. None. The "laying the groundwork for next year" argument is illogical -- he's costing his client money now.

 

Does that mean the Bills will pay Walter Jones money if Peters comes to camp? I don't think that will happen, either, but there are realistic arguments against doing so -- Peters' relative youth at the position and recovery from an injury being the two most immediately relevant.

 

It is a reasonable and "good faith" position for the Bills to tell Peters they will compensate him as a top 5 LT if he exhibits a consistent high level of play over the course of the 2008 season. Perhaps they throw an additional bonus his way this year. How does Peters not playing now help his cause?

 

I think Parker simply has read this one wrong.

[Kelly the Dog]

Kelly, it makes no sense for Parker to hold Peters out right now if he believes the Bills will not negotiate a pay raise. None. The "laying the groundwork for next year" argument is illogical -- he's costing his client money now.

 

Does that mean the Bills will pay Walter Jones money if Peters comes to camp? I don't think that will happen, either, but there are realistic arguments against doing so -- Peters' relative youth at the position and recovery from an injury being the two most immediately relevant.

 

It is a reasonable and "good faith" position for the Bills to tell Peters they will compensate him as a top 5 LT if he exhibits a consistent high level of play over the course of the 2008 season. Perhaps they throw an additional bonus his way this year. How does Peters not playing now help his cause?

 

I think Parker simply has read this one wrong.

Paying $100,000 in fines compared to becoming the highest paid lineman in the league is chump change. Besides, he will probably convince the Bills to rescind the fines. People are acting here like this guy is a total schlub and he doesn't know what they teach you in high school about negotiating, when he is amongst the very best in the league. And he usually ultimately gets his way and his clients the cash. He may be miscalculating here, but I very much doubt it. He knows what he is doing, and Jason Peters at some point will be amongst the top paid OL in the league, served very well by his agent. We might not like it but it's embarrassing IMO for fans to say this guy is stupid.

[Billadelphia]

IMO that's impossible. First, what if the Bills renegotiated. Do you think they are not going to make sure he's 100% before they sign him to a 60 million contract? Or that if he is not 100% they wouldn't know that? Or when it becomes apparent in two days that he is not 100% that Eugene Parker would not be barred from the league? If he had an injury, this is not what would be happening.

 

My argument is that how will they know without him coming in and actually playing in some gametime situations? Its one thing if you can do a bonescan and see how much of the bone has healed, but for groin surgery, the only way to see if that "2 inch mesh screen" will hold up under his 340lb frame is for him is to get out there and push some people around. Imagine the strain on that little 2 inch screen when he's got a lineman coming full speed at him. It took McNab 2 years to really recover from his sports hernia, but he's a QB, so its a totally different situation. They move more and weigh less so it doesn't really apply here other than its the same type of injury.

 

I did some brief research and couldn't find anything, but has there been lineman in recent years that had sports hernia surgery and made a full recovery so fast? The medical technology changes so fast that its tough to say that the same injury even 3 years ago would be the same recovery period as today, but who knows until he gets out there and shows everyone, including himself? The article about the surgery posted above says that in most cases, the patient feels fine walking and doing everyday activities, but the pain comes when there is stress put on the body. What kind of workouts has he been putting himself through in the offseason? Are they comparable to gametime stress?

[Kelly the Dog]

My argument is that how will they know without him coming in and actually playing in some gametime situations? Its one thing if you can do a bonescan and see how much of the bone has healed, but for groin surgery, the only way to see if that "2 inch mesh screen" will hold up under his 340lb frame is for him is to get out there and push some people around. Imagine the strain on that little 2 inch screen when he's got a lineman coming full speed at him. It took McNab 2 years to really recover from his sports hernia, but he's a QB, so its a totally different situation. They move more and weigh less so it doesn't really apply here other than its the same type of injury.

 

I did some brief research and couldn't find anything, but has there been lineman in recent years that had sports hernia surgery and made a full recovery so fast? The medical technology changes so fast that its tough to say that the same injury even 3 years ago would be the same recovery period as today, but who knows until he gets out there and shows everyone, including himself? The article about the surgery posted above says that in most cases, the patient feels fine walking and doing everyday activities, but the pain comes when there is stress put on the body. What kind of workouts has he been putting himself through in the offseason? Are they comparable to gametime stress?

My argument is, if you actually think for one second, do you really believe one of the top agents in the game knows his client is hurt and is going to risk his (the agent's) entire career by hiding that injury, which is 100% certain to eventually come out? If he was hurt he would be in camp and watching from the sidelines and Peters and Parker would know they will have to wait until next year. No agent is going to do that. They would be banned from the league. We're not talking about an extension for a few million, we're talking about $60-100 million dollars.

[Dan]

If kat ran a business the way he's advocating the Bills deal with Peters, he'd be shuttered in less than a week. eball is right, Parker's tactics are mystifying to me and anyone else who has even casually followed NFL contract disputes the past 5 or so years. Holding out, trying to strong-arm a club just doesn't work, ask Drew Rosenhaus. If anyone has noticed, DR has tempered his act in recent seasons, and is now quietly the best agent in the NFL.

 

Why the hold-out? Kat and others assume they know the answer: obviously Peters feels slighted by the Bills for being grossly underpaid and is demanding a new contract. OK, that's part of it. But holding out of camp and making literally zero effort to reach out to the team? Sounds strange to me. Is Parker a d-bag and trying to make a name for himself as a "tough" negotiator? Probably. Is Peters grossly out of shape and knows he would struggle in camp? Maybe... Is he still injured/recovering? I have I feeling I'm getting warmer. Either way, the Bills aren't going to shaft Peters and not pay him; they have plenty of money just like all 31 other teams in the league due to TV/revenue sharing. But for Peters isn't gaining any admirers pouting because Dock/Walker make more money than him. Of course they do; they were free agents signed just last year. Everyday he holds out Peters sounds more and more like a b*tch to me.

 

Oh a kat mentioned Evans as another one of the Bills' elite players "slighted" and not getting paid. Well, Lee is in camp right now practicing with his teammates, exactly where Peters should be. And Lee only has one year left on his deal, I think he is a bigger priority than Peters currently.

 

Keep doing what you're doing, Eugene. You're not doing your client any favors.

No need to read further. This post is spot on, IMO (especially the bolded part). We see it all the time - rookies signed to enormous contracts, FAs signed to big contracts, and the current guys being underpaid. However, they get paid when their turn comes. Peters is no exception. Yes, he's grossly underpaid. However, another great year and the Bills would have almost certainly made him one of the highest paid Linemen in the game. Everything in the FOs recent history suggests that. The holdout and complete lack of communication is puzzling to say the least.