Here's what I don't understand

[Zulu Cthulhu]

If kat ran a business the way he's advocating the Bills deal with Peters, he'd be shuttered in less than a week. eball is right, Parker's tactics are mystifying to me and anyone else who has even casually followed NFL contract disputes the past 5 or so years. Holding out, trying to strong-arm a club just doesn't work, ask Drew Rosenhaus. If anyone has noticed, DR has tempered his act in recent seasons, and is now quietly the best agent in the NFL.

 

Why the hold-out? Kat and others assume they know the answer: obviously Peters feels slighted by the Bills for being grossly underpaid and is demanding a new contract. OK, that's part of it. But holding out of camp and making literally zero effort to reach out to the team? Sounds strange to me. Is Parker a d-bag and trying to make a name for himself as a "tough" negotiator? Probably. Is Peters grossly out of shape and knows he would struggle in camp? Maybe... Is he still injured/recovering? I have I feeling I'm getting warmer. Either way, the Bills aren't going to shaft Peters and not pay him; they have plenty of money just like all 31 other teams in the league due to TV/revenue sharing. But for Peters isn't gaining any admirers pouting because Dock/Walker make more money than him. Of course they do; they were free agents signed just last year. Everyday he holds out Peters sounds more and more like a b*tch to me.

 

Oh a kat mentioned Evans as another one of the Bills' elite players "slighted" and not getting paid. Well, Lee is in camp right now practicing with his teammates, exactly where Peters should be. And Lee only has one year left on his deal, I think he is a bigger priority than Peters currently.

 

Keep doing what you're doing, Eugene. You're not doing your client any favors.

[Billadelphia]

LOL Of course.

 

Do you know that Peters is not healthy, or are you just guessing?

 

Otherwise, yeah, not a "worthless point" you made or anything. LMAO

 

Funny, everyone's opinion here means more than the facts season after season. If your opinions meant more than a hill of beans, we'd have made the playoffs three or four years since 2000.

 

Do you know that he is healthy, or are YOU just guessing? We're all guessing at this point because he's missed every offseason workout since having his surgery and ending the season on IR.

 

What the Bills are saying is that they aren't going to guess on his health prior to giving him millions of dollars.

[NY Nole]

It would be one thing if Peters were the highest paid linemen yet just underpaid by some standard. But he's getting less on a per season basis than either Walker or Dockery. The pay to performance ratio is much lower for Peters than it is for the other two and even Butler who just got $9M new money in a 3-year extension.

 

IMO the Bills handling of these things is a slap in the face to Peters.

 

Maybe Peters excelled at LT because of the Dockery (and Walker signing). If you lined him up at LT and put a scrub LG next to him, maybe our all-pro LT just becomes another in a long-line of failed prospects at that position.

 

I'm not suggesting that Peters isn't worth investing more money into -- and he probably is underpaid at his position, but he is 1/5 of the O-line and to use the Dockery/Walker signings as leverage for justifying more money goes both ways -- without them he probably isn't as good.

 

Being a GM in this league today reminds me of someone trying to constantly patch holes in a leaking dam using bubblegum. As soon as you get one stopped another one starts gushing. No wonder Marv called it a day.

 

I really like Peters and think he is an integral part of our line/success -- but if the Bills efforts to date haven't built up enough good faith credit to get his ass in camp and let the Bills FO work on a renegotiated contract then we may be looking at a Darwin Walker type situation.

[amacc]

Peerless Price took our front office to school and to the bank as well.

 

Could you please elaborate on this point. I don't remember Price fleecing Buffalo at any point.

[krazykat]

you slow witted clown.

 

this thread is (supposed) to be about the curious nature of this holdout. the bills aren't the vikings or some team that does this a lot. this agent only recently had a lot of guys holding out, so the (very good) question is why is this happening now? no matter what you think of the bills front office (or suicide, which i really think you should look into) this is a strange situation for peters and since he stands to lose so very much if he does sit for a season, makes normal posters wonder if he's being desperate for a reason. and no one's seen him healthy since december of 07.

 

remember tho, it's up the stream not across the street.

Talk about slow witted clowns, not to mention a-holes, if you've read all of my handful of posts on this topic you'd know that I understand that Peters has something to lose you moron.

 

First of all this thread hasn't revolved around you and your narrowly focused and completely unobjective position based on your guesses as to something that can't even remotely be substantiated. My responses began in addressing the question in the thread. Whether you liked my answer or not, TFB. I didn't insult anyone nor did I condescend like several others in this thread.

 

Peters had an injury last year at the end of the season that really shouldn't have been even a minor issue moving forward and a very routine one that rarely if ever requires surgery. So if you want to think that he has some kind of injury that is lasting, then feel free, but if the team's doctors, experts, that you all seem to trust implicitly diagnosed his problem accurately last season, then there should be nothing at all to worry about. What is far more relevant that few of you seem to believe is, is what Peters and his agent have been saying and which is supported by the team's own moves and decisions.

 

Could he be hurt such that it will impact his play to a very significant extent? Sure, of course he could be but there's absolutely nothing on record to suggest that. Nada!

 

There is stuff on record however that makes it clear that the Bills don't value him nearly as much as they value other parts of the team, including backups and rotational players. That's a fact whether it was intentional or not or whether you believe it or not. The contracts that free agents and existing players got are quantifiable hard factual bits of evidence that can be put up against Peters' contract and mathematically evaluated.

 

When one makes that evaluation Peters' position becomes clear whether you agree with it or not.

 

But more importantly,you talk as if he's the only one with something to lose while the team has nothing to lose. Let me paint an obvious picture here since you seem to have tremendous difficulty reasoning past what's immediately in front of you in bold letters.

 

Suppose Peters no-shows for the entire season, a distinct possibility regardless of the chances, OR, see that's a conjunction that denotes a relationship, he even misses some games or shows up so late that his conditioning hinders the play of the team (that you say you're such a big fan of) to the extent that it contributes to us having another losing season.

 

Do you honestly think that the media, most fans, or anyone else is going to continue to suggest that Jauron knows what he's doing, or that perhaps Brandon is out of his league. I realize that in your little shell of a world of this message board community Jauron farts and everyone smells fresh pasta, but to the objective outsider, another losing season would be horrible for this franchise. Can we stand another three years of rebuilding under a new coach that will want "his own QB" again, and has his own new agenda? I know that I'm well past that point and I know that I speak for a damn good portion of Bills fans on that matter.

 

Also, you and others probably seemed fine with the signings of backups like Tripplett, a known backup, Royal, a known marginal TE, Fowler, who has proven low end too, and Peerless Price whom no team would offer even veteran minimum too, to far greater than bargain basement contracts, yet, for Peters let me get this straight, you're against the team budging because he "might be" injured and with absolutely no evidence to suggest that he is and with all the evidence in the world that he's being entirely on the level regarding his position? Is that it colin? Yeah, you're a sharp one.

 

Of course in the world of a good chunk of this message board you as avid fans would all be really pleased with yet another season in which we could line up the excuses as to why we didn't win the big one. (I only speak to a portion of this community as many of you have your heads on straight and are capable of interacting without child-like tantrums the nature of colin's here)

 

So, no matter what you think of Peters, the FO, yourself, me, or your lame-brained inability to grasp the big picture, perhaps you'd better know that he's injured before you start assuming it for the team and for all of Bills fandom. And how would he have gotten injured, racing to the chinese buffet at Wegmans and tripping over half a dozen people?

 

And who knows, maybe he just doesn't have the heart to play anymore and we should make that the focal point of our offering to him also. We have sure as hell made decisions on comparable merits in the past with this FO in place, that's for sure.

[eball]

Will the Bills pay Peters top-flight tackle money? Sure, they'll give him a raise. But will the Bills make him among the highest paid LT's in the league?

 

Eugene Parker doubts it.

Parker hasn't done his job to this point. That job includes the following:

 

-- Prepare a detailed spreadsheet of all current starting LT contracts in the NFL;

-- Prepare a detailed spreadsheet of all current starting OL contracts in general;

-- Highlight the position of his client on both lists;

-- GET HIS CLIENT INTO CAMP to show (a) he's healthy and (b) he's committed to the team concept; and

-- Present the statistical information to the Bills as a starting point for discussions.

 

I GUARANTEE you following the above course of action would result in meaningful and fruitful discussions with the Bills, and a new contract for Jason Peters.

[krazykat]

Could you please elaborate on this point. I don't remember Price fleecing Buffalo at any point.

You don't eh. Please don't take this in a bad way, but I'm not surprised.

 

Go to Bills Daily or elsewhere and check out the contract he got from us in '06 when we could have signed him for veteran minimum yet opted not to. And if he wouldn't have signed for that, like many of us said back then, who cares, let him bag groceries. He didn't even provide vet min value over the past two seasons, predictably.

[K-9]

Will the Bills pay Peters top-flight tackle money? Sure, they'll give him a raise. But will the Bills make him among the highest paid LT's in the league?

 

Eugene Parker doubts it.

 

Nor should they. The Walter Jones', Jonathon Ogden's, and Orlando Pace's of the world didn't get their mega deals after just ONE pro bowl season. And while Peters is an exceptional athletic talent, he's still not a polished LT in the league, unlike the aformentioned group. Yes, he's our best OLman by a mile. Yes he should be the highest paid OLman on our team. But would I make him one of the top 5 highest paid LTs? Not until he polishes his technique and proves last year was just a first of many great years to come.

 

The Bills WILL make him their highest paid OLman. But he's got to get into camp. Much like the Schobel situation. He's hurting himself, his teammates, and his leverage by just staying away.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

Parker hasn't done his job to this point. That job includes the following:

 

-- Prepare a detailed spreadsheet of all current starting LT contracts in the NFL;

-- Prepare a detailed spreadsheet of all current starting OL contracts in general;

-- Highlight the position of his client on both lists;

-- GET HIS CLIENT INTO CAMP to show (a) he's healthy and (b) he's committed to the team concept; and

-- Present the statistical information to the Bills as a starting point for discussions.

 

I GUARANTEE you following the above course of action would result in meaningful and fruitful discussions with the Bills, and a new contract for Jason Peters.

I would bet you Peters next contract that Parker knows exactly what every player in the league makes, has it as his fingertips. He can probably rattle off the top 10 LTs within a few dollars off the top of his head.

 

Regardless of what the Bills say publicly, I would bet anything they know pretty much what he is asking for, because it likely can be summed up in three words, like, say, "Walter Jones money", (or whomever is the top LT in the game). Parker is just seeing if the Bills will flinch, or call, or do something. They already did, move Walker to LT, which, to me, does not give the team more strength in the game of chicken, it gives them less.

[krazykat]

Parker hasn't done his job to this point. That job includes the following:

 

-- Prepare a detailed spreadsheet of all current starting LT contracts in the NFL;

-- Prepare a detailed spreadsheet of all current starting OL contracts in general;

-- Highlight the position of his client on both lists;

-- GET HIS CLIENT INTO CAMP to show (a) he's healthy and (b) he's committed to the team concept; and

-- Present the statistical information to the Bills as a starting point for discussions.

 

I GUARANTEE you following the above course of action would result in meaningful and fruitful discussions with the Bills, and a new contract for Jason Peters.

If the Bills don't know all that already, then time for a new GM and front office. Besides, have they even been willing to talk reneg? Seems to me that Brandon has made the team's position clear, they're not budging including even talking until Peters shows up to camp. Or is that not correct?

 

We and the team do know that Butler is getting paid comparably and both Walker and Dockery are getting more. That's all that the Bills FO and Brandon should need to know in order to at least begin discussions.

 

The sentiment here appears to be that Peters has much more to lose than the team does when that's not at all the case. They both have something to lose, but Peters sitting out for any considerable length of time, which we're fast approaching and particularly with the team making plans for Peters not showing up, has the ability to set this team back for years if they cannot overcome his holdout and post a winning season.

 

That point can be argued, but there isn't much room for arguing that a third straight losing season in Buffalo would begin to set the wheels in motion from one or more angles for some major changes. There also isn't much room for arguing that this team takes a major setback without Peters at LT.

 

It's interesting how all the rah-rah types here that constantly talk about what great fans of this team they are don't seem to care.

[Fan in Chicago]

If you'd like to engage in a real discussion, please, feel free.

First of all, I appreciated your posts on other topics as they are at least well thought out and supported by facts. On this topic however I disagree with you. On a philosophical level, the Bills helped make Peters what he is today - a highly rated O lineman. In addition, he got a hefty raise not too long back. Given this, his hold out is disturbing and mildly frustrating to me.

I do understand this is a business and there is a legitimate case for him to get much more money. Which side needs the other more is debatable but what is clear is that both sides need each other badly.

Apart from my philosophical (BS) point above, Peters has chosen the path of confrontational negotiations which is an unpleasant way to go about things. Even if he signs in time for Aug 8th, he still will have hurt the team.

[krazykat]

Nor should they. The Walter Jones', Jonathon Ogden's, and Orlando Pace's of the world didn't get their mega deals after just ONE pro bowl season. And while Peters is an exceptional athletic talent, he's still not a polished LT in the league, unlike the aformentioned group. Yes, he's our best OLman by a mile. Yes he should be the highest paid OLman on our team. But would I make him one of the top 5 highest paid LTs? Not until he polishes his technique and proves last year was just a first of many great years to come.

 

The Bills WILL make him their highest paid OLman. But he's got to get into camp. Much like the Schobel situation. He's hurting himself, his teammates, and his leverage by just staying away.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Have he or his agent stated that he wants to be paid like the highest paid LTs? I haven't heard that.

 

I also disagree that the Bills will automatically make him their highest paid lineman. They haven't done anything with Evans yet and if I were Peters I'd use that as the primary gauge. Now the team's hands may be tied financially, but they could at least do something going forward.

 

As to the Schobel situation, there are similarities, but mostly in what players of lesser value got playing the same or similar positions. All similarities end there. Schobel got a huge deal as he was leaving his prime. Peters is just entering his and can fully be expected to continue to improve whereas Schobel can only be expected to get worse.

 

I still think that it's on the team to reach out to Peters and his agent and at least begin to explain where they stand on this contrasted with their giving Butler (this year) a seemingly inflated extension also with even less on record to suggest that he's gonna even be an average G, and Dockery and Walker's deals last year. If they can explain that to them, then progress will be made. If not, then they're just going to have to face the music from the band that they hired.

 

As to "having to get into camp," I could agree with you and we all could agree, but the reality is that holdouts are standard ploys by high profile players and just a part of the business and anyone thinking that loyalty to the team by players comes first, especially here in Buffalo, is deluding themselves. It's business and the business part of this organization just doesn't function well.

[Beerball]

They already did, move Walker to LT, which, to me, does not give the team more strength in the game of chicken, it gives them less.

Unless you think that Chambers is a better option at LT how does moving Walker weaken the Bills (in this stalemate)?

 

Shouldn't they show that they are prepared to move forward? Put the best 11 on the field etc. etc. etc.

[The Senator]

Will the Bills pay Peters top-flight tackle money? Sure, they'll give him a raise. But will the Bills make him Eugene Parker among the highest paid LT's agents in the league?

 

Eugene Parker doubts it hopes so.

Fixed it.

[Heitz]

But this nonsense about "getting him in camp first" then renegotiating is just that, nonsense. Peters clearly doesn't believe that his show of good faith in that regard would be reciprocated. If that were what was holding this up, then this team would have something done with Evans now.

 

Kat, I'm not going to get into your contention that some players were overpaid in the past; IMO while some of those contracts seemed large when they were signed, in a couple years they'll be right in the middle of the pack and they've given us some all-important long-term continuity. Sometimes you have to overpay for that...

 

But I do question the lines I quoted above - why *wouldn't* Peters think that showing up at camp would help his negotiations? The Bills have made it pretty clear that it will. The national media has said several times over the past week the the Bills know that Peters is undercompensated and that they're willing to talk with about it once he gets to camp! So what does he have to loose by coming to camp?

 

Regarging Lee's contrat, there have been several reports that the Bills and Lee's agent are working on the extension. IMO, this WILL happen, it's just a matter of time. As a guy that works in sports marketing and has signed several athletes to contracts I can tell you that it takes months - and I'm dealing with contracts that are a fraction of the compensation and have far fewer clauses than an NFL contract.

 

In the end I just don't see anyway that Peter's sits out the season - to do so would be financial suicide for the guy! Sure he'll get his contract eventually, but he'll be sitting at home losing millions. Last time I checked $3,000,000 > $0.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Peters had an injury last year at the end of the season that really shouldn't have been even a minor issue moving forward and a very routine one that rarely if ever requires surgery. So if you want to think that he has some kind of injury that is lasting, then feel free, but if the team's doctors, experts, that you all seem to trust implicitly diagnosed his problem accurately last season, then there should be nothing at all to worry about. What is far more relevant that few of you seem to believe is, is what Peters and his agent have been saying and which is supported by the team's own moves and decisions.

 

Could he be hurt such that it will impact his play to a very significant extent? Sure, of course he could be but there's absolutely nothing on record to suggest that. Nada!

Suppose Peters no-shows for the entire season, a distinct possibility regardless of the chances, OR, see that's a conjunction that denotes a relationship, he even misses some games or shows up so late that his conditioning hinders the play of the team (that you say you're such a big fan of) to the extent that it contributes to us having another losing season.

 

You show me his med records post-surgery indicating he's 100% and ready to play. YOU show me video of Peters in pads lining up anywhere near a practice field post-surgery. Sh*t, show me a picture of him in gym shorts breaking a sweat since his surgery and i'll be happy. YOU are the one assuming buddy. You want the team to hand a guy top-5 OT money after one (one!) great season AND coming off an injury that required surgery to repair. Oh, and you want the team to do this without even seeing the guy practice even once. You are dense.

 

"a distinct possibility, regardless of the chances" - OK that statement makes no sense and contradicts itself; but besides that, it is not "a distinct possibility" Peters holds out a season. Even if it was, I say let him. He won't get paid, his value to other teams drops, his agent is exposed for the fool he is. Maybe that's why you support Parker and Peters so much, you're on their level intellectually.

[Billadelphia]

Could he be hurt such that it will impact his play to a very significant extent? Sure, of course he could be but there's absolutely nothing on record to suggest that. Nada!

 

He ended the season on IR and he had offseason surgery. Since then, he hasn't been seen jogging, much less playing football. What more do you want?

[Kelly the Dog]

Unless you think that Chambers is a better option at LT how does moving Walker weaken the Bills (in this stalemate)?

 

Shouldn't they show that they are prepared to move forward? Put the best 11 on the field etc. etc. etc.

First, let me say that I think Peters should be in camp, and I am not necessarily in favor of what Parker is doing. I am just explaining what I think is happening.

Second, it's impossible to say what is the better strategy, this is a totally unique case, both sides are right and both sides are wrong in their thinking/actions.

Third, it's really hard to be an armchair QB like we are all doing when we don't know the real personalities of the people in question, meaning Parker and Peters on one side, and Brandon and Overdorf on the other. Not to mention we have zero idea what has been or hasn't been discussed.

 

But specifically to your question, because Peters ain't sitting out the season. They aren't moving on without him. This is too early to do this move (I wouldn't do it until after the first pre-season game at the earliest). This move, to me, shows how valuable Peters is, and reinforces Parkers position. He knows they aren't going to do this, and he knows his client is going to be the starting LT in the first game. This not only is a weak attempt at saying "we don't need you" when we clearly do, but hurts the rest of the OL's cohesion and the learning of the new playbook.

 

To me, the Bills aren't playing this smart either and the hardline approach doesn't often work with hardliners. This has the greatest chance for acrimony, although there may not be any way around it. To me, the Bills would be a little better off saying, "We love Jason Peters. We want him here his entire career. He's going to make a lot of money. But we don't understand why a great player would throw away his career right in the prime of it and we have never seen one in the history of the game who would. We are not trading his rights, he's too good. We would rather him sit for three years rather than give him away so we're not even going to entertain calls. We expect him to be playing with us and in due time, either this year or next, he will get the contract he richly deserves and be set for life and to go to many pro bowls as a Buffalo Bill."

[tennesseeboy]

The Bills don't have a bad reputation concerning contract negotiation or extending players. I'm not just pulling that out of my ass -- I've read specific quotes from top agents like Rosenhaus that the Bills are professional and good to work with. They've let a few players walk after their contracts expired (Pat Williams, Nate Clements), but in terms of working with current players on the roster they've never (to my knowledge) taken a hard line position or been unreasonable. Recent draft picks certainly haven't expressed displeasure with the way things were handled.

 

Which begs the question -- what the hell is Eugene Parker doing?

 

I know there's already a long holdout thread going, but I really think this is a different question. Why would Parker think this is the right way to deal with the Bills?

It isn't about the right way to deal with the bills. It is recognizing an opportunity where his client has great leverage and a perceived salary inequity. The reason for the holdout and the clout is the same reason the proverbial dog licks his testicles...because he can.

[colin]

He ended the season on IR and he had offseason surgery. Since then, he hasn't been seen jogging, much less playing football. What more do you want?

 

but but but, krazypats said that his injury rarely requires surgery.

 

he's just blabbing out of his ass, at least bill in NYC has a legit love for the bills, inspite of his creepy OL love and corner hate. he also offers a lot of insight into the game. kk just blabs on. is there an ignore feature?