Next time you get the urge to bash the Bills front office

[shrader]

Now I now this current front office has little to do with it, but I'm not going to bash any other front office until the number 1999 has no meaning around here anymore. This front office won't mean a thing to me until they get us back into the playoffs.

[billybob]

the numbers on Nate's contract

 

3/2/2007: Signed an eight-year, $80 million contract. The deal contains $22.6 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $11 million and annual $500,000 workout bonuses. With a voidable year in 2014, it is essentially for seven seasons and $64.02 million. 2008: $3,383,334 (+ $10 million roster bonus), 2009: $3,516,666, 2010: $6 million, 2011: $7.25 million, 2012: $9 million, 2013: $10.77 million, 2014: $15.48 million (Voided Year), 2015: Free Agent. Cap charges: $5.55 million (2008), $5.68 million (2009), $8.17 million (2010).

 

Note the Cap charges - not cheap but not so high either.

[BADOLBILZ]

Did you notice this post?

 

Nate's Pro Bowl level of play apparently amounted to a tiny ripple in a very large pond.

 

Once and for all, can any Clements fan admit he wasn't and isn't worth what SF paid, and it would have been silly for the Bills to tie up that kind of money in him?

 

No, the guy once again played great. He put up excellent numbers and was the Niners team MVP in his first season there. The Bills pass defense bit the dust without him last year. No, it wasn't because the run defense was so bad. The genius who drew that conclusion up neglected to mention that the 2006 run defense was also awful.

 

Then came the offseason where salaries have skyrocketed, making Clements look like a bargain by comparison. Yeah, check the transactions once in a while. Today Andrew Whitworth gets $7.5 M per year extension? And after all was said and done......the Bills had to draft a cornerback in round 1 to replace Clements, then pay that unproven player $4M per year to hopefully learn on the job as a situational substitution. BTW, when Clements was McKelvin's age, he was in his THIRD SEASON as a starting corner in the NFL. Word to your mother, Eball.

 

Seriously, you guys need to stop being such haters. Your freakin' heads are going to explode when Evans gets $10M per season(about 25% MORE than Nate). Evans is a year younger than Nate and has had just 1 season in the NFL where he had 1000 yards receiving, and hasn't even caught 50 passes in either of the last two years. What the hell is a guy who catches 100 passes per year worth if a guy who catches 48 two years in a row gets $10M per? The answer is, whatever the going rate is. Pay your star players or someone else will, and you'll be back at the troth and wondering why you seem to be getting nowhere fast.

 

Is it so much to ask that some of you learn to put things in perspective a little? I mean, what next, a rant that the Bills didn't miss Will Wolford because he got too much money from Indy? I mean really, look at the frickin' scoreboard for a change.

[BillsVet]

It's a team sport. We don't need to blow our load on just one (apparently small) piece of the puzzle.

 

Good NFL front offices know what players and which positions are more easily replaceable. It's why clubs like NE, IND, and SD are continually at the top, despite the same cap restrictions that all teams have. These are the ones who draft lower in the first round and come away with talent late into the draft.

 

Teams are made up generally of a few stars and plenty of supporting talent. Buffalo's young, but players like Peters, Schobel, and Lee Evans are the three most talented players on this team. Guys come and go, but eventually a team must decide which players they'll keep whatever the cost. They're the franchise cornerstones. It's why I think Crowell will hit FA, and Buffalo will find a replacement. He's not a bad player, but LB's can be replaced and Crowell isn't a world-beater. Anyone who follows the Colts knows that Polian lets LB's go and finds studs in the draft to replace them.

 

Not all front offices are equal and until the current version in Buffalo demonstrates some success, they'll be regarded as below average to poor given the same people have been running the show (minus Donahoe) since 2001. IMO, Brandon is a newcomer to the personnel side of the franchise. All the puff pieces in the world cannot hide whether the FO knows what it's doing and ultimately, what happens on the field determines if they've got the right plan.

[VOR]

No, the guy once again played great. He put up excellent numbers and was the Niners team MVP in his first season there. The Bills pass defense bit the dust without him last year. No, it wasn't because the run defense was so bad. The genius who drew that conclusion up neglected to mention that the 2006 run defense was also awful.

 

Then came the offseason where salaries have skyrocketed, making Clements look like a bargain by comparison. Yeah, check the transactions once in a while. Today Andrew Whitworth gets $7.5 M per year extension? And after all was said and done......the Bills had to draft a cornerback in round 1 to replace Clements, then pay that unproven player $4M per year to hopefully learn on the job as a situational substitution. BTW, when Clements was McKelvin's age, he was in his THIRD SEASON as a starting corner in the NFL. Word to your mother, Eball.

 

Seriously, you guys need to stop being such haters. Your freakin' heads are going to explode when Evans gets $10M per season(about 25% MORE than Nate). Evans is a year younger than Nate and has had just 1 season in the NFL where he had 1000 yards receiving, and hasn't even caught 50 passes in either of the last two years. What the hell is a guy who catches 100 passes per year worth if a guy who catches 48 two years in a row gets $10M per? The answer is, whatever the going rate is. Pay your star players or someone else will, and you'll be back at the troth and wondering why you seem to be getting nowhere fast.

 

Is it so much to ask that some of you learn to put things in perspective a little? I mean, what next, a rant that the Bills didn't miss Will Wolford because he got too much money from Indy? I mean really, look at the frickin' scoreboard for a change.

The Bills being without Denney for half a season, Hargrove for 4 games, and losing guys like Simpson, Poz, and Kiwaukee Thomas, had an effect on the Bills' defense, whether you choose to believe it or not. But even still, the Bills surrendered ONE more TD in 2007 but had 5 more INT's compared to 2006. Conversely, the 49'ers surrendered 1 fewer TD but also got 2 fewer INT's last year compared to 2006. IOW, Clements' absence meant almost nothing.

[eball]

Seriously, you guys need to stop being such haters.

Saying a guy wasn't worth his contract and pointing out a negligible impact on his new team's statistics is hardly "hating." It's called fact-checking.

[biglukes]

Saying a guy wasn't worth his contract and pointing out a negligible impact on his new team's statistics is hardly "hating." It's called fact-checking.

Wile we're fact checking I'd also like to know how anyone comes up with a stat like Clements shut down the opponents top reciever 63% of the time.

[BillsVet]

Arguing in a black and white world that posters like eball and VOR live in is like trying to eat cereal with chopsticks. According to them, anything can be explained with select statistics, team or individual.

 

Here's one statistic that matters. How many games have Clements and Fletcher missed in the previous six seasons? Out of a combined 192 games, they've been on the field for all of them.

 

Here's another item: Compare the Bills starting CB situation in 2006 to 2008: In 06 it was McGee and Clements. This year it'll most likely be McGee and either Greer or McKelvin.

 

Look at the resources Buffalo used to replace NC versus what it would have taken to retain him. NC's cap for the following three seasons is 19.4M combined and would have allowed the Bills flexibility with their first round pick this year. Not to mention he's durable and plays at a very high level. In his wake, the Bills used 3 picks on corners this season, signed a FA in Will James, and doled out a decent sized contract to their first rounder. There can be no doubt that McKelvin was picked to start, either this year or next.

 

The price to replace NC is not surprisingly closer than most fans realize. Between draft picks, first round size contracts, and FA's, the Bills continue to opt for the cheap-now decision and pay for it in the long term.

[C.Biscuit97]

Arguing in a black and white world that posters like eball and VOR live in is like trying to eat cereal with chopsticks. According to them, anything can be explained with select statistics, team or individual.

 

Here's one statistic that matters. How many games have Clements and Fletcher missed in the previous six seasons? Out of a combined 192 games, they've been on the field for all of them.

 

Here's another item: Compare the Bills starting CB situation in 2006 to 2008: In 06 it was McGee and Clements. This year it'll most likely be McGee and either Greer or McKelvin.

 

Look at the resources Buffalo used to replace NC versus what it would have taken to retain him. NC's cap for the following three seasons is 19.4M combined and would have allowed the Bills flexibility with their first round pick this year. Not to mention he's durable and plays at a very high level. In his wake, the Bills used 3 picks on corners this season, signed a FA in Will James, and doled out a decent sized contract to their first rounder. There can be no doubt that McKelvin was picked to start, either this year or next.

 

The price to replace NC is not surprisingly closer than most fans realize. Between draft picks, first round size contracts, and FA's, the Bills continue to opt for the cheap-now decision and pay for it in the long term.

 

For what it's worth, I think Clements is one of the best corners in football. But corners are one of the most overrated positions in all of football. How many Super Bowls have Champ Bailey and Clements gone to? This team is much better served paying oline men like Dockery and Walker (and hopefully Peters) than dumping a ton of money to a corner.

[Dawgg]

Saying a guy wasn't worth his contract and pointing out a negligible impact on his new team's statistics is hardly "hating." It's called fact-checking.

 

More like wishful thinking.

 

Looking at the pass defense ranking differential between 2006 and 2007 and drawing a conclusion on Clements' value is as stupid an analysis as it is hollow. The fact that he managed to take out the #1 receiver at a higher percentage than any corner in the NFL is far more indicative of his play than the overall ranking of the defense.

[Dawgg]

For what it's worth, I think Clements is one of the best corners in football. But corners are one of the most overrated positions in all of football. How many Super Bowls have Champ Bailey and Clements gone to? This team is much better served paying oline men like Dockery and Walker (and hopefully Peters) than dumping a ton of money to a corner.

 

How about Ty Law?

 

The Bills certainly don't think CB is an overrated position given the draft resources they have spent on the position the past few years.

 

Bottom line: you pay your elite talents and let mediocre players walk, drafting their replacements IRRESPECTIVE of position. Nate Clements was an elite player that should have been kept in the fold. Dockery, while a big piece of the O-Line's resurgence is not an elite player... but the Bills certainly gave him elite money!

[BillsVet]

For what it's worth, I think Clements is one of the best corners in football. But corners are one of the most overrated positions in all of football. How many Super Bowls have Champ Bailey and Clements gone to? This team is much better served paying oline men like Dockery and Walker (and hopefully Peters) than dumping a ton of money to a corner.

 

CB's, LB's, WR's, RB's, and QB's depend on the lines for success. NC, like any CB in the league, depends on a pass rush. While this is all elementary, some still don't understand this simple facet of football. Neither SF or Buffalo had much of a pass rush while NC was with each team. Same can be said for Champ Bailey, who had a motley crew of DL rushing the passer. They couldn't stop the run either and Denver missed the playoffs.

 

Certain positions are simply more important than others. The building blocks required for a team's success start with a QB, solid OL, and a pass rush. Everything else is secondary, including CB's. Repeatedly drafting high DB's, RB's, WR's, and LB's is worthless without the guys up front to make them look good. The Bills, since the beginning of Donahoe's time, have repeatedly drafted skill positions, leaving them with gaping holes on the OL and DL. TD, ML, and RB have turned to free agents and risky trades to solve the OL and DL issues. This results in elite CB's not putting up the numbers many want them to. There is no corner in NFL history that can play well without support.

[VOR]

Arguing in a black and white world that posters like eball and VOR live in is like trying to eat cereal with chopsticks. According to them, anything can be explained with select statistics, team or individual.

 

Here's one statistic that matters. How many games have Clements and Fletcher missed in the previous six seasons? Out of a combined 192 games, they've been on the field for all of them.

 

Here's another item: Compare the Bills starting CB situation in 2006 to 2008: In 06 it was McGee and Clements. This year it'll most likely be McGee and either Greer or McKelvin.

 

Look at the resources Buffalo used to replace NC versus what it would have taken to retain him. NC's cap for the following three seasons is 19.4M combined and would have allowed the Bills flexibility with their first round pick this year. Not to mention he's durable and plays at a very high level. In his wake, the Bills used 3 picks on corners this season, signed a FA in Will James, and doled out a decent sized contract to their first rounder. There can be no doubt that McKelvin was picked to start, either this year or next.

 

The price to replace NC is not surprisingly closer than most fans realize. Between draft picks, first round size contracts, and FA's, the Bills continue to opt for the cheap-now decision and pay for it in the long term.

This is as silly as the "the Bills should have kept McGahee because they 'wasted' another 1st rounder on Lynch..." argument. McGahee was rightfully shown the door and Clements was NOT worth near the $9M a year he's getting, and the law of averages is creeping up on him where he's about due for a major injury.

 

I just showed you that the effect that Clements' absence had on the Bills passing defense was negligible at best, and the same could be said for his presence on the 49'ers' defense. Unless there is some further breakdown that someone is willing to do, like passing offenses each team's defense faced in 2006 versus 2007, "it is what it is."

 

Could his presence have meant the difference between the Bills going 7-9 and 10-6 and possibly making the playoffs? It never did in the past, and given the state of the Bills' offense, it's highly doubtful.

 

As for the contention that the Bills spent 3 draft picks and signed an UFA just to replace Clements, please. The value was at CB, OL, and RB at their position, and given the money they spent on the OL (and there was no center worth near the 11th overall pick) and the pick they spent on Lynch the year before, they weren't going to take either of those. Not to mention Greer has 1 year left and James is on the wrong side of 30 and has an injury history. The other options would have been to trade down or reach for a player at another position (like WR, but that would have been dumb), but I doubt any team was offering anything for the 11th pick this year.

[C.Biscuit97]

How about Ty Law?

 

The Bills certainly don't think CB is an overrated position given the draft resources they have spent on the position the past few years.

 

Bottom line: you pay your elite talents and let mediocre players walk, drafting their replacements IRRESPECTIVE of position. Nate Clements was an elite player that should have been kept in the fold. Dockery, while a big piece of the O-Line's resurgence is not an elite player... but the Bills certainly gave him elite money!

 

 

Didn't the Pats let Ty Law walk??? Law is a great player but the Pats certainly proved he is very replaceable. It's funny they don't seem to let a guy like MAtt Light walk. Again, Clements was one of my favorite Bills but I'd rather have a good guard than a good corner. Serious question: would rather have Clements or Stroud and Dockery?

 

And the reason the Bills draft corners in the first is because they are much more likely to contribute as young players and you save a ton of money paying a rookie cb than vet.

[Rico]

He did his job, shutting down the #1 receiver of the opposition the majority of the time. In turn, teams effectively stopped throwing to his side and attacked the rest of the secondary.

 

As I said, I'd rather pay top-dollar to a top-dollar worthy player. Clements ranks among the best in his position, so he will command top-dollars. Dockery is NOT among the best in his position, but is paid like it.

Who would you rather have: Nate Clements + Brendan Albert, or Derrick Dockery + Leodis McKelvin?

Far too early to call one way or the other, but I do miss Nate.

 

More like wishful thinking.

More like frantic spinning.

[BillsVet]

Could his presence have meant the difference between the Bills going 7-9 and 10-6 and possibly making the playoffs? It never did in the past, and given the state of the Bills' offense, it's highly doubtful.

 

 

Two games come to mind in 2006 that NC could have or actually did make a difference in.

 

The first came at Detroit when Buffalo lost 20-17. McGee covered Roy Williams for three quarters, allowing 9 catches for 140+ yards. DJ and Fewell finally had NC cover Williams in the 4th. RW made only 1 more reception.

 

The second occurred at NY in Week 14. With Buffalo holding a 14-10 lead, NC intercepted Pennington and returned it for a TD to give Buffalo a 21-10 lead (and big momentum shift) which held.

 

NC has recorded 5 TD's in 7 pro seasons, and as an earlier poster noted, has repeatedly stopped opponent's top receiver.

 

NC was a superior CB, and a player who should have been retained in early 2006. He's durable, and compared to the resources allocated to replace him, was a better value. One which received 22M guaranteed and with FA becoming as high priced as it is, will probably being reasonable if all things continue. Then again, when's the last time a highly regarded CB reached the market?

[Dawgg]

Didn't the Pats let Ty Law walk??? Law is a great player but the Pats certainly proved he is very replaceable. It's funny they don't seem to let a guy like MAtt Light walk. Again, Clements was one of my favorite Bills but I'd rather have a good guard than a good corner.

 

After 10 seasons!!! They used him until he was about to plateau and ONLY THEN did they let him walk.

 

When Ty Law was in his prime, the Patriots held onto him for dear life -- and for good reason. They franchised him, signed him, did whatever it took to make sure he was wearing a Pats uniform.

 

Serious question: would rather have Clements or Stroud and Dockery?

 

I'd rather have Stroud and Clements and find a guard in the draft. Dockery was given the same contract as Steinbach and Hutchinson and is nowhere near the player. He's good, he's just not elite. Clements, on the other hand, is an elite corner. There's a long line of #1 receivers he covered 1:1 and they couldn't get anything done.

 

It's all water under the bridge now, but I certainly do question why this front office overpays for marginal talent but when a top-tier talent commands big bucks, he's suddenly deemed "expensive."

[Adam]

After 10 seasons!!! They used him until he was about to plateau and ONLY THEN did they let him walk.

 

When Ty Law was in his prime, the Patriots held onto him for dear life -- and for good reason. They franchised him, signed him, did whatever it took to make sure he was wearing a Pats uniform.

 

 

 

I'd rather have Stroud and Clements and find a guard in the draft. Dockery was given the same contract as Steinbach and Hutchinson and is nowhere near the player. He's good, he's just not elite. Clements, on the other hand, is an elite corner. There's a long line of #1 receivers he covered 1:1 and they couldn't get anything done.

 

It's all water under the bridge now, but I certainly do question why this front office overpays for marginal talent but when a top-tier talent commands big bucks, he's suddenly deemed "expensive."

I'd prefer Pat Williams and Antowain Winfield. I haven't liked Clements since he went for the interception instead of the win against the Jags

[Bill from NYC]

In his wake, the Bills used 3 picks on corners this season, signed a FA in Will James, and doled out a decent sized contract to their first rounder.

 

Dont forget Youboty, the heir apparent, was a #3.

[eball]

More like wishful thinking.

 

Looking at the pass defense ranking differential between 2006 and 2007 and drawing a conclusion on Clements' value is as stupid an analysis as it is hollow. The fact that he managed to take out the #1 receiver at a higher percentage than any corner in the NFL is far more indicative of his play than the overall ranking of the defense.

Funny -- you call me "stupid" for simply commenting on the overall 49er defensive stats for 06 and 07, yet rely on one particular (and very vague) individual statistic to support your argument Clements is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

I've never said Clements isn't a top-flight CB. It's amusing how that presumption is automatically assigned to anyone who dares critique his contract and the wisdom of the 49ers in paying it.

 

Spin it however you want -- the 49ers with Clements were a statistically similar defense to the 49ers without Clements. In my apparently warped and narrow mind, that means he didn't make a huge difference for them. If your argument is that he DID make a huge difference in a way that doesn't show up in the stats, then the rest of the defense really stunk it up -- implying the 49ers wasted too many resources on their CB while failing to address the rest of the D.