Bills sign McKelvin

[colin]

It just keeps getting crazier. Seriously, look at what is happening......

 

They won't pay their pro bowl LT, but they will pay their #11 corner (who will play out his contract and leave) more than the #10. Great.

Whitner, who doesn't force fumbles, sack qbs, or pick off passes is now something of a guru; a team leader who makes most of his tackles a mile past scrimage.

 

Look, I love this team; I always will, but to quote SDS, I am becoming more of a "fan of Bills Fans and WNY" than I am of the way this team is managed. They are a blueprint of what not to do in terms of building a football team that wins games.

 

I invite any football fan to examine the rosters of every team that ever won, let alone made a superbowl. These names will include LTs Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, Jumbo Elliot, Walter Jones, Anthony Munoz, Will Wolford, Jackie Slater, and a host of others that I am too lazy to look up/list.

 

Many of these teams had great corners too but excuse me....where is our Deion Sanders. Mel Blount? No, we use our top resources on corners, most of whom are good, and then we let them walk. Makes sense?

 

Our OL WITH Peters is thin, yet we devote our resources to being a farm team for defensive backs, this as a cold weather franchise where passing matters less. Imo, Bills Fans are the greatest fans of any team in any sport. We deserve far more than stupidity like this.

The good news is that if we tank yet again, one would think that Jauron is gone. Maybe they will throw the rest of these idiots out as well and hire some people who know how to build a strong football team, and win.

 

you are getting closer the krazykat trolls now bill.

 

bill, i know you have a good understanding of ol play, how would you rate your understanding of secondary play and secondary player evaluation?

 

and further more, how would you rate your understanding of contract negotiation and pro player contracts? how about game theory and negotiations?

[Steely Dan]

Imo, most of your post has merit (not that you should care mind you) except the bolded. The reason for this is that we have already tried it, and the results are in...... a decade of losing.

I think that 3rd and 4th defensive backs with strong players in front of them look better than 1st round defensive backs with Larry Tripplett in front of them.

Imo, Jauron has no "swagger" if you will. He coaches and drafts to "not lose" rather than attack. This will never work in a cold weather, blue collar town like Buffalo.

 

 

A decade of losing under a different GM and several different HC's. You seem to believe that the current regime should be blamed for that.

 

Playing conservatively when a team has a bunch of rookies is just a smart way to play it. This year the offense will be opened up a little bit more because they have some better players on O.

[Lori]

Something nobody has mentioned yet regarding McKelvin's contract vs. Mayo's:

 

Franchise tag - CB: $ 9,465,000

Franchise tag - LB: $ 8,065,000

 

If the Bills had drafted a quarterback at No. 11, you don't think he would have made more than a linebacker at No. 10? And quarterback is the ONLY position with a higher tag value than cornerback. Corners make more than linebackers. Ergo, McKelvin makes more than Mayo.

[Risin]

Something nobody has mentioned yet regarding McKelvin's contract vs. Mayo's:

 

Franchise tag - CB: $ 9,465,000

Franchise tag - LB: $ 8,065,000

 

If the Bills had drafted a quarterback at No. 11, you don't think he would have made more than a linebacker at No. 10? And quarterback is the ONLY position with a higher tag value than cornerback. Corners make more than linebackers. Ergo, McKelvin makes more than Mayo.

 

 

Great point. (as you are usually guilty of)

 

[Ramius]

Something nobody has mentioned yet regarding McKelvin's contract vs. Mayo's:

 

Franchise tag - CB: $ 9,465,000

Franchise tag - LB: $ 8,065,000

 

If the Bills had drafted a quarterback at No. 11, you don't think he would have made more than a linebacker at No. 10? And quarterback is the ONLY position with a higher tag value than cornerback. Corners make more than linebackers. Ergo, McKelvin makes more than Mayo.

 

Good post, Lori. I was goign to say something similar how CBs are paid more than LBs. But, as others have mentioned, if you look at the guaranteed money(which is the only thing that really matters on the rookie contracts), its basically exactly between the #10 and #12 pick.

[Chilly]

So now, McCorner makes more money than Jason Peters.

Yeah.....that makes a lot of sense.

 

Pretty much guaranteed that whoever they had picked at #11 was going to make more due to the screwed up salary structure.

 

Not that I disagree with you about Peters - I'm also of the opinion that the Bills should pay him, but the rookie salary structure sucks.

[Ramius]

It just keeps getting crazier. Seriously, look at what is happening......

 

They won't pay their pro bowl LT, but they will pay their #11 corner (who will play out his contract and leave) more than the #10. Great.

Whitner, who doesn't force fumbles, sack qbs, or pick off passes is now something of a guru; a team leader who makes most of his tackles a mile past scrimage.

 

C'mon Bill, you're better than that. You know that rookies and holdouts are 2 completely different situations. So were the Bills supposed to focus only on paying peters and forget about getting a rookie into camp in time?

 

And, not too surprisingly, the season is only 4 practices old and you are already trashing whitner. (for what its worth, i had picked 7 practices in the "when will bill trash whitner/mckelvin first" pool) But look on the bright side. This season, when you do your game reports, you can automatically insert 1. Whitner was garbage this game and sucked, and 2. McKelvin was terrible and sucked this game too.

 

You and dawgg are the only 2 on the entire board that arent excited about Whitner's stepping up to be a leader of the entire defense. I guess him being a "leader" doesnt count because he's no on the DL, huh?

[Bill from NYC]

C'mon Bill, you're better than that. You know that rookies and holdouts are 2 completely different situations. So were the Bills supposed to focus only on paying peters and forget about getting a rookie into camp in time?

 

And, not too surprisingly, the season is only 4 practices old and you are already trashing whitner. (for what its worth, i had picked 7 practices in the "when will bill trash whitner/mckelvin first" pool) But look on the bright side. This season, when you do your game reports, you can automatically insert 1. Whitner was garbage this game and sucked, and 2. McKelvin was terrible and sucked this game too.

 

You and dawgg are the only 2 on the entire board that arent excited about Whitner's stepping up to be a leader of the entire defense. I guess him being a "leader" doesnt count because he's no on the DL, huh?

 

You see, this is where we differ. I am fine with it mind you; it makes being on this board interesting.

 

You can find many posts of mine in which I said that Whitner is good. You will not find one in which I said that he is bad. I don't think he was worth a #8 mind you, let alone the trade down offers. So what? As for McKelvin, I know little about him.

My issues are not with those two, but with Jauron and yes......Levy.

 

Even with our differences on how to build a football team, you have acknowledged that there IS a point where it is over the top to draft too many dbs with our best picks. You don't think it is over the top yet; I do. Well, while I readily state that Whitner is good, I have seen little to like about Simpson. There is not 1 thing to make me believe that Jauron won't take another first round defensive back next year (if he isn't fired by then). I have been watching football long enough to know that this is not the way to win.

By the way, I think that so have you.

[BillsD#1in2008]

Bill um have you not noticed that we needed a TOP Corner in the draft and whenever we draft a CB is because we are in need of one and you didnt see us draft Revis or Leon Hall last year did ya NO...Dick got us Marshawn so just stop complaining!

[Bill from NYC]

Bill um have you not noticed that we needed a TOP Corner in the draft and whenever we draft a CB is because we are in need of one and you didnt see us draft Revis or Leon Hall last year did ya NO...Dick got us Marshawn so just stop complaining!

 

Day 1 of 07 was great, and not just because of Marshawn. I liked what little I saw of Poz very much, and think that Trent was a literal steal.

Amazing what you can do when you don't devote a draqft to the secondary, huh?

[Max997]

Something nobody has mentioned yet regarding McKelvin's contract vs. Mayo's:

 

Franchise tag - CB: $ 9,465,000

Franchise tag - LB: $ 8,065,000

 

If the Bills had drafted a quarterback at No. 11, you don't think he would have made more than a linebacker at No. 10? And quarterback is the ONLY position with a higher tag value than cornerback. Corners make more than linebackers. Ergo, McKelvin makes more than Mayo.

 

 

McKelvin does not make more then Mayo...why cant people understand this

 

just look at Hesters new deal with Chicago, it has incentives in there that he will never reach yet its reported as part of the deal

 

ITS ALL ABOUT THE GUARANTEED MONEY PEOPLE, THATS IT.....MCKELVIN GOT LESS GUARANTEED MONEY THEN THE 10TH PICK AND MORE THEN THE 12TH PICK, ITS CALLED SLOTTING

[Saint Doug]

Imo, most of your post has merit (not that you should care mind you) except the bolded. The reason for this is that we have already tried it, and the results are in...... a decade of losing.

I think that 3rd and 4th defensive backs with strong players in front of them look better than 1st round defensive backs with Larry Tripplett in front of them.

Imo, Jauron has no "swagger" if you will. He coaches and drafts to "not lose" rather than attack. This will never work in a cold weather, blue collar town like Buffalo.

 

I agree that Jauron has no "swagger." Or, is it that he has no "ego?" He seems comfortable enough not to micro-manage; instead he just delegates. And I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. The good coaches seem to micro-manage - see Belicheat.

 

And I don't think that letting all of our DBs walk at the end of their rookie contracts has lead to a "decade of losing" and I don't think you actually think this either. Letting Big Pat walk and not building up our lines have lead to our losing ways. Let the DBs walk - they don't matter as much - but retain the lines (which I actually see us doing now - for a change). I don't think our current FO would have ever let Big Pat walk like TD did.

[KOKBILLS]

You see, this is where we differ. I am fine with it mind you; it makes being on this board interesting.

 

You can find many posts of mine in which I said that Whitner is good. You will not find one in which I said that he is bad. I don't think he was worth a #8 mind you, let alone the trade down offers. So what? As for McKelvin, I know little about him.

My issues are not with those two, but with Jauron and yes......Levy.

 

Even with our differences on how to build a football team, you have acknowledged that there IS a point where it is over the top to draft too many dbs with our best picks. You don't think it is over the top yet; I do. Well, while I readily state that Whitner is good, I have seen little to like about Simpson. There is not 1 thing to make me believe that Jauron won't take another first round defensive back next year (if he isn't fired by then). I have been watching football long enough to know that this is not the way to win.

By the way, I think that so have you.

 

I here what your saying Bill...

 

No question if The Bills go into next Years Draft and ANY DB Position is mentioned as a Need...There is a problem...But I would say, at this point, let's see what they do this Year on the field...I honestly think the main reason The Bills have Drafted so often at DB during the Marv Era can be summed up in two words...Tom Brady...And after what Brady did to this Bills Secondary last Year...well...An Organization with a built in philosopy that favors Drafting DB's high was not about to pass up on the opportunity to address that area once and for all...

 

Now...We all know as Football Fans and Arm Chair Experts that Brady was defeated in the SB by an outstanding Pass Rush...In fact, I can't 100% remember but I think the Giants Secondary limped into the Playoffs a bit...And they Drafted a Safety in the 1st, and a CB in the 2nd Round this Year...So there was a Need in NY for DB's, and they still beat Brady...No question the point about how to build a Team to Win a Championship, or for that matter to Win a freaking Game vs. The Pats is in question here...I'm hoping The Bills Brass decided they were going to make certain The Depth at DB was lock solid in 08, and for Years to come...I'm also guessing they think great Pass Rushers come around once in a blue moon...But I digress...

 

I'm willing to wait a Year to pass judgement overall...This Secondary should be one of the 10 best in the NFL this Year (I said SHOULD, not would btw)...There is a lot of Talent at DB on this Roster...Lets see how it plays out in 08...But point well taken...

[Dan]

I here what your saying Bill...

 

No question if The Bills go into next Years Draft and ANY DB Position is mentioned as a Need...There is a problem...But I would say, at this point, let's see what they do this Year on the field...I honestly think the main reason The Bills have Drafted so often at DB during the Marv Era can be summed up in two words...Tom Brady...And after what Brady did to this Bills Secondary last Year...well...An Organization with a built in philosopy that favors Drafting DB's high was not about to pass up on the opportunity to address that area once and for all...

 

Now...We all know as Football Fans and Arm Chair Experts that Brady was defeated in the SB by an outstanding Pass Rush...In fact, I can't 100% remember but I think the Giants Secondary limped into the Playoffs a bit...And they Drafted a Safety in the 1st, and a CB in the 2nd Round this Year...So there was a Need in NY for DB's, and they still beat Brady...No question the point about how to build a Team to Win a Championship, or for that matter to Win a freaking Game vs. The Pats is in question here...I'm hoping The Bills Brass decided they were going to make certain The Depth at DB was lock solid in 08, and for Years to come...I'm also guessing they think great Pass Rushers come around once in a blue moon...But I digress...

 

I'm willing to wait a Year to pass judgement overall...This Secondary should be one of the 10 best in the NFL this Year (I said SHOULD, not would btw)...There is a lot of Talent at DB on this Roster...Lets see how it plays out in 08...But point well taken...

I think that could be a reasonable conclusion or assumption. We've certainly drafted a number of DBs the last few years. I think the Bills' current FO is just taking a different approach to building a winning team. They certainly haven't ignored the lines. Last year they brought in several high priced FAs to shore up the Oline. And this season, they've browght in several FAs on the defensive line - not to mention Mitchell to help with the pass rush.

 

So, I guess you could ask is it better to draft DBs and sign FAs on the lines? Or is it better to draft linemen and sign FA DBs? Apparently, the Bills' FO think the former is the best approach to get past the Pats*. Hopefully, they're right.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Bill um have you not noticed that we needed a TOP Corner in the draft and whenever we draft a CB is because we are in need of one and you didnt see us draft Revis or Leon Hall last year did ya NO...Dick got us Marshawn so just stop complaining!

Uh...why? Has no team EVER won without a top corner?

 

Who won the Super Bowl last year? Thats right. And who won it the year before, again?

[Sisyphean Bills]

And I don't think that letting all of our DBs walk at the end of their rookie contracts has lead to a "decade of losing" and I don't think you actually think this either. Letting Big Pat walk and not building up our lines have lead to our losing ways. Let the DBs walk - they don't matter as much - but retain the lines (which I actually see us doing now - for a change). I don't think our current FO would have ever let Big Pat walk like TD did.

OK, the two elite lineman the Bills have acquired out of college and who played for the Bills in the 00s were Pat Williams and Jason Peters. Both of these guys were supreme longshot UDFA rookies. The OL and DL that the Bills have spent draft picks on have been spectacular busts like Flowers and Mike Williams to roster fillers like Merz, Bannan, and Anderson. Really, Aaron Schobel is the only draft pick that one could say was a solid draft hit.

 

Every time the team has to draft another "cheap" 1st round CB to replace the Pro Bowler they let walk out the revolving door, it is another opportunity to draft a franchise lineman that slips through their fingers. So how is it again that "building" around DBs that leave after 4 or 5 years a solid strategy?

 

Frankly, the Bills hitting on Jason Peters as a franchise LT was astronomically long odds. How that can be construed as a "plan" is mind boggling. But, I'm glad it worked out. Because, if Kirk Chambers was the Bills starting LT, the Hamdan fan club would have gotten to see their hero see plenty of action.

[John from Riverside]

I would rather be a farm team for DBs than to sign one after their rookie contract expires. Look how much veteran DBs are making. It's ridiculous! I would rather draft a McKelvin and let him walk after 5 years than pay what San Fran gave to Clements. I say drafting a DB in the first round every 4-5 years is not devoting our resources. Signing a DB to Clement's contract is devoting too much resources. We can deal with young DBs here - we don't need expensive veteran-type DBs for our type of game.

 

Our OL may be thin, but we are pouring considerable resources into it - with what Dockery and Walker are making. The jury is still out on how good Butler is going to be, but we did throw a bunch of cash his way. Now, I do agree that superbowl teams need great LTs, so I think we should pay Peters more, but I think he needs to be at camp (read: a team player) before we show him the money.

 

[Saint Doug]

OK, the two elite lineman the Bills have acquired out of college and who played for the Bills in the 00s were Pat Williams and Jason Peters. Both of these guys were supreme longshot UDFA rookies. The OL and DL that the Bills have spent draft picks on have been spectacular busts like Flowers and Mike Williams to roster fillers like Merz, Bannan, and Anderson. Really, Aaron Schobel is the only draft pick that one could say was a solid draft hit.

 

Every time the team has to draft another "cheap" 1st round CB to replace the Pro Bowler they let walk out the revolving door, it is another opportunity to draft a franchise lineman that slips through their fingers. So how is it again that "building" around DBs that leave after 4 or 5 years a solid strategy?

 

Frankly, the Bills hitting on Jason Peters as a franchise LT was astronomically long odds. How that can be construed as a "plan" is mind boggling. But, I'm glad it worked out. Because, if Kirk Chambers was the Bills starting LT, the Hamdan fan club would have gotten to see their hero see plenty of action.

 

I agree that we hit the jackpot in obtaining Williams and Peters. But, isn't this a feat in itself? And yes, there would be other ways of obtaining these superstars, like drafting them early. But, we already failed in doing this. For some reason, the Bills FO has great skill in drafting DBs in the first round. But, we suck at drafting linemen on the first day. Williams and Flowers are great examples - both complete busts. Add Bannan, Anderson, Merz, & Preston into that group too. Truth is that our FO sucks at finding linemen in the draft. I would love to have faith in the FO to do this, but I don't think that drafting linemen early instead of DBs would work. It's a sad truth. Or, maybe its the coaching - maybe they just can't develop young linemen well. I wish Ellis the best of luck in avoiding being added to that list.

[El Presidente]

you are getting closer the krazykat trolls now bill.

 

bill, i know you have a good understanding of ol play, how would you rate your understanding of secondary play and secondary player evaluation?

 

and further more, how would you rate your understanding of contract negotiation and pro player contracts? how about game theory and negotiations?

 

Has anyone done the math on Peter's contract? I mean...for sake of this thread...how does his bonus money when he signed compare to McCorner?

I'm sure Peter's food bill is twice as much as McCorner...can we throw a free team buffet his way?

I'm beginning to think he's not recovered from surgery yet and no one (neither he nor the Bills brass) want anyone to realize that's the real issue...

[Pyrite Gal]

I think folks are making a mistake when they are judging the quality of the Bills draft simply on one factor such as team building over time (certainly a lead legitimate criterion) when actually reality dictates that other factors also MUST be taken into account at the time. In fact, despite the ultimate importance of the goal of building a team over time , there are simply other reasons which reality thrusts upon the Bills (or any team) which assessment of quality based solely on whether a pick is THE best long-term strategy alone simply come off as unrealistic whining.

 

Sure building in the trenches (or the even more unrealistic affirmation of drafting for the OL is a preferable thing to do, but this "NICE" approach is so undermined by reality that merely complaining it has not happened in reality comes off as the football fan equivalent of holding your breath til you turn blue.

 

Reality simply commands that one take into account:

 

1. Though building in the OL trenches is a preferred method, individual player quality often dictates picking at another position-

 

I'm sorry to disappoint smart fans like Bill (or even constant whiners like some of the other OL acolytes on TSW), but in a specific given year it would simply be stupid for the Bills to pass on taking a blue chip player at another position of need to take a lower ranked OL player with the pick. An example of this was the 06 draft where the Bills had the #8 pick. The only OL players deemed worthy at the time of a top 10 pick were gone (D'Brick was long gone) and it would not have been reasonable at all even if one did the correct assessment and picked an OL rookie who started immediately (Mangold) at #8 rather than late in the first where he was actually taken. Picking to fill a need position like SS was not unreasonable in terms of strategy (even if one wants to whine "do not take an S in the 1st" is simply ignoring the reality that Whitner was not even the 1st S taken in the 1st round that year and was not even the last. Even complaints that attempt to assess this on what happened later rather than the knowable must ignore the reality that though the NYJ OL oriented choices were great in 06 ending in a playoff appearance, they saw NYJ finish with a pathetic record in 07.

 

There simply may be hard to even argue intelligently against reasons why the preferred method over time may not be a reasonable choice at the time in question. Reality simply dictates that all draft decisions happen at a specific time in question and not over the long-term. To fault a team for not having a long-term actual occurrence may be true but really amounts to little more than howling at the moon after mentioning this truth a couple of times.

 

2. One of the central reasons in reality that should be cited by those who demand an OL focus is that the Bills have unfortunately been bad but generally not bad enough to pick early when the franchise OL players are available-

 

One sad fact that if one is going to rant repetitively about the failure to go OL in many drafts over time is that for most specific drafts the Bills routinely seem to finish poorly enough they get a pick between #8 and #12 (three consecutive drafts in that pesky thing called reality), but this position routinely has resulted in the best OL players (like a D'Brick) being long gone, but the pick not being low enough that picking a player like Mangold (or many of the Indy picks by a team who routinely does well enough to have the 1st pick generally be late in the 1st). In most specific years your long-term reasonable strategy simply has made little sense utilizing the Bills resources at the time.

 

3. Its not like the Bills are so stupid they are simply ignoring your logical strategy-

 

IMHO the Bills have suffered a great deal not from being conceptually stupid, but instead from being episodically incorrect. They in fact pursued your strategy of 1st day OL emphasis a couple of times when they had early picks and they were simply bad rather than just mediocre. The result have been horrendous choices like Mike Williams or not optimal choices like Jonas Jennings. Have they not pursued this strategy enough? Sure we all wish they had made better choices every single time. However, even if though this is true it is so obvious as not to really not make it that worthy of repetitive observation (and I say this as a person who obviously has not problem with being repetitive). The OL rant is so obvious and is so counter to reality in individual years that even I find it droning as an argument.

 

and so on and so on.