VABills Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 "Let every soul be subject to higher powers. For there is no power but from God: and those that are ordained of God. Therefore, he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist purchase to themselves damnation. For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil" (Romans 13:1-4).
MichFan Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 In what way is he "using" catholicism? Please explain just how it is that Kerry is using his religion as "a foundation to pursue policies" that the church opposes. In both debates where the abortion issue was discussed, Kerry was emphatic that he was a Catholic and believed as the Catholic church does on the issue. In both debates he also stated that he can't transfer his "article of faith" to others. The Catholic church is pretty clear about this. They expect leaders who wave the Catholic flag to support Catholic policies. Kerry can't have it both ways on this issue. He can't tout Catholicism among his credentials and at the same time promise a pro-choice litmus test for the Supreme Court. Extreme hyocrisy from the man criticizng Bush for words without deeds.
Alaska Darin Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 You just know it's going to be a good day when someone is quoting from Romans.
VABills Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 You just know it's going to be a good day when someone is quoting from Romans. 75847[/snapback] I have more, that was just a start. Of course I will break out my Catechism and start quoting from that soon as well. Isn't it great when our Pope who is against capital punishment is misquoted. While he doesn't believe in it, the doctrine of Catholic faith does permit it in several circumstances. the first one being that in doing so no innocent people are killed, except in war.
PastaJoe Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 If a church wants to become involved in politics it's their right, but their tax exemption should be pulled. I'm a Catholic and I don't want the church telling me who to vote for or against. What's next, excommunication for not supporting welfare payments or raising taxes for social programs? It's a slippery slope.
UConn James Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 I have more, that was just a start. Of course I will break out my Catechism and start quoting from that soon as well. Isn't it great when our Pope who is against capital punishment is misquoted. While he doesn't believe in it, the doctrine of Catholic faith does permit it in several circumstances. the first one being that in doing so no innocent people are killed, except in war. 75859[/snapback] At the 26th anniversary celebration of his election as pope on Sunday, John Paul spoke out against captial punishment, as he has numerous times before, and said he's against the entire doctrine of pre-emptive war, nevermind that he's spoken out against war as an answer since he gained the office. So, you're picking and choosing b/w what the pope says now and what the Church has said in the past, so as to fit your views. If you don't like Starbucks, you can quote the Church when they pronounced coffee as an evil. Or dancing. And just like you don't want others deciding for you what your beliefs are, please refrain from saying that I'd want Saddam re-installed. I wanted him gone in 1991 when I was 12 y.o. but we had another guy in office named Bush who wouldn't complete a job either. Republican doctrine after that was not to get involved with playing "world cop" and humanitarian efforts. We're paying the price for that now, with dividends.
VABills Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 At the 26th anniversary celebration of his election as pope on Sunday, John Paul spoke out against captial punishment, as he has numerous times before, and said he's against the entire doctrine of pre-emptive war, nevermind that he's spoken out against war as an answer since he gained the office. So, you're picking and choosing b/w what the pope says now and what the Church has said in the past, so as to fit your views. If you don't like Starbucks, you can quote the Church when they pronounced coffee as an evil. Or dancing. And just like you don't want others deciding for you what your beliefs are, please refrain from saying that I'd want Saddam re-installed. I wanted him gone in 1991 when I was 12 y.o. but we had another guy in office named Bush who wouldn't complete a job either. Republican doctrine after that was not to get involved with playing "world cop" and humanitarian efforts. We're paying the price for that now, with dividends. 76036[/snapback] So you are going to teach me about Catholic doctrine, which BTW is our Catechism? I can quote you all you want, I have two copies at home. Don't presume to tell me what is and is not in it. The Pope has his agenda, that may or may not match with Church doctrine. Happens forever. He is teaching what is called the "New" Catholic church doctrine that the Church hopes to adopt but has not yet. He also wants all powers in the world to dis-arm military weapons. Nice ideas, but not realistic. I would love to someday see that but I am also a realist.
todd Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 This is one of the (many) reasons I am no longer a Catholic. Makes my convictions all the more solid, in both who I am voting for and also renouncing my Catholocism.
PastaJoe Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 This is one of the (many) reasons I am no longer a Catholic. Makes my convictions all the more solid, in both who I am voting for and also renouncing my Catholocism. It really bothers me that those who say they are the most faithful are often the most intolerant of others that have a different belief or view then them, regardless of their religion. I can't believe that God/Yahwah/Allah/Jesus intended religion to be the great divider that it is in this country and the world.
VABills Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 It really bothers me that those who say they are the most faithful are often the most intolerant of others that have a different belief or view then them, regardless of their religion. I can't believe that God/Yahwah/Allah/Jesus intended religion to be the great divider that it is in this country and the world. 76143[/snapback] It isn't , it's those that don't want to abide by the religion yet have all the benefits that seem to have problems. You want to be Catholic, okay some basic tenets are 10 Commandments, Catechism, believe in Jesus, go to confession, go to church on Sunday, you cannot be proabortion, etc... There are rules with everything, you don't like the rules, go somewhere else. Just like you want to be an American and live here, you have certain rules. If you don't want to be Catholic, try another religion, or no religion. I guess will find out when you die who was right. Me I have faith and while I am not perfect and sin daily, I hope that I am forgiven and get to go to heaven when I die. I will never know for sure until then. But I live my life to the standards set forth and hope it's enough. Also, I am not intolerant, but part of my belief is that I am supposed to guide, teach and bring others closer to God, if they listen. If they choose to have a closed mind and heart, I can't do much, but I let you know what it takes to get closer.
PastaJoe Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 You want to be Catholic, okay some basic tenets are 10 Commandments, Catechism, believe in Jesus, go to confession, go to church on Sunday, you cannot be proabortion, etc... Many of those rules/laws were made by humans hundreds of years after Jesus (priests can't marry, life begins at conception, eat fish on Fridays, etc.). I go by what Jesus SAID, not what people interpret what he meant, which has changed over the centuries depending on who was in charge of church doctrine. My guiding principle is "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you".
VABills Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Many of those rules/laws were made by humans hundreds of years after Jesus (priests can't marry, life begins at conception, eat fish on Fridays, etc.). I go by what Jesus SAID, not what people interpret what he meant, which has changed over the centuries depending on who was in charge of church doctrine. My guiding principle is "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you". 76166[/snapback] And what Jesus said is interpreted by people hundreds of years later. Believe what you want, but remembersometimes the easy way isn't the right way. Also, remember those that know but chose not to follow will have to answer why. It's not up to me to judge you, but give you the information, what you choose to do is your decision.
Alaska Darin Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Jesus may have been a pacifist but his Father sure wasn't.
VABills Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Jesus may have been a pacifist but his Father sure wasn't. 76198[/snapback] Ask the money changers how much of a pacifist he was.
nobody Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 If a church wants to become involved in politics it's their right, but their tax exemption should be pulled. I'm a Catholic and I don't want the church telling me who to vote for or against. What's next, excommunication for not supporting welfare payments or raising taxes for social programs? It's a slippery slope. 75912[/snapback] Agreed. Separation of chuch and state. I don't want some religion telling my goverment how to run the country. I also don't want my government telling a religion how to run their chuch.
jjamie12 Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 It isn't , it's those that don't want to abide by the religion yet have all the benefits that seem to have problems. You want to be Catholic, okay some basic tenets are 10 Commandments, Catechism, believe in Jesus, go to confession, go to church on Sunday, you cannot be proabortion, etc... Do you believe that anyone who is not Catholic is going to hell? Or, rather, do you belive that anyone who doesn't follow 'the rules' of Catholicism is going to hell?
MichFan Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 If a church wants to become involved in politics it's their right, but their tax exemption should be pulled. I'm a Catholic and I don't want the church telling me who to vote for or against. What's next, excommunication for not supporting welfare payments or raising taxes for social programs? It's a slippery slope. Agreed. So how many times have you heard about a priest, minister, or rabbi endorsing Bush or allowing Bush to make a stump speech from the pulpit? Compare that to the number of times that a Baptist church has openly campaigned from the pulpit for Kerry and even invited Kerry, Jackson, and/or Sharpton to promote the Democrat ticket.
VABills Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Do you believe that anyone who is not Catholic is going to hell? Or, rather, do you belive that anyone who doesn't follow 'the rules' of Catholicism is going to hell? 77775[/snapback] Neither, I believe that if you have been taught and know then if you don't follow you have some things to answer for. It is not my decision on who goes where. But I believe Jesus and God gave us some clear direction on what it takes to get to heaven. They don't expect perfection, but rather believe follow his word to the best of your ability and profess that word to others. If that means speaking out against abortion like I do, than so be it. We all make decisions here on earth that we all have to answer for.
30dive Posted October 21, 2004 Posted October 21, 2004 When my church begins to excom... political leaders for views/actions that oppose all of the churches doctrine; such as birth control, death penalty, unjust wars I will suport any excom... of course that will leave no Catholics involved in government, I will then support Senator Kerrys dismissal from my church. The churches leaders are cafateria catholics, like most of the rest of us. My bio, regarding above: Anti Abortion pro adoption and pro choice, Anti Death penalty No artificial birth control two visits to Haiti Felt the war in Iraq was just, have since determined we were lied to. Teach CCD Just try to excom.. me :I starred in Brokeback Mountain:
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 21, 2004 Posted October 21, 2004 If a church wants to become involved in politics it's their right, but their tax exemption should be pulled. I'm a Catholic and I don't want the church telling me who to vote for or against. What's next, excommunication for not supporting welfare payments or raising taxes for social programs? It's a slippery slope. 75912[/snapback] That could really help a city like Buffalo... How much property is owned by the Catholic church... ALOT!
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