krazykat Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 Trent may not be the ultimate answer.....although I think he has a good chance to finally be the QB the Bills need for the next 10 years. We do know that JP is not the guy, even though we all desperately wanted him to be.....the complete lack of interest from any of the other teams certainly speaks volumes about the league's view of him...although I'll always maintain JP is a great guy. He is an average QB at best who will probably find his niche as a back-up QB.Trent has the most important thing a QB needs in today's NFL and that is intelligence and the ability to make quick decisions. Demonstrating that as a rookie was huge. Taking a guy from Standford who did not know a soul on a team across the country and have him come in and outplay our starter in both the pre-season and regular season was a pretty big thing. I think he really is going to be a great fit for this team. Growing pains to be expected given year two but overall we will see improvement from an already solid year one. I wish I could say I'm gonna laugh, but it's gonna be just another gut wrenching day, when about midseason you guys are all asking yourselves WTF this team is even doing. Edwards won't even be starting next year and never will again after this season is my prediction. The guy has played as poorly in his first season as some of the biggest first round busts of all time. You guys just won't see it all because everyone is screaming "poise." The disappointment will be great. At least with JP we would have a shot because he's improved steadily. And when he does replace Edwards who is going to be looking for work following the season in all likelihood, he will outperform Edwards before leaving the team. Again, not that he would be our future QB as he's probably not, but Edwards sure as hell doesn't give us our best chance of winning, that should be for damn sure.
Bill from NYC Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 The disappointment will be great. At least with JP we would have a shot because he's improved steadily.. Yeah, he was great last year! You have his picture on your wall, right? Don't be shy.....tell us.
krazykat Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 Why didn't you just come out and say it, you think JP should start over TE. It doesn't matter what answers you get from people, you just come back with "how come we were the worst ever with him in there" blah blah. If you think JP should be the guy, then just come out and say it. Did you really expect more from TE? Well, when you say that you say it as if I think this team would be good if we did. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't start Edwards over anyone and if you break down his games all you have left is excuses as to why he sucked royally. Other than this "poise" thing which no one has even explained how it matters practically, there is absolutely nothing to his game. Zilch! If the team plays so much better otherwise, and all we we are going to get with this team playing better in other facets of the game is dead last offensive production and near dead last defensive production, and a downturn in STs from the year before, then I"ll simply pass. Why don't any of you have any higher standards for your own team? I would start JP over Edwards for the simple reason that the offense moves the ball more yards, scores more points on average, logs more 1st downs, converts more 3rd downs, etc. I mean isn't that what an offense is supposed to do? Seems to me that if you were to take a poll here the answer is no, it's not. It's supposed to see who looks better on the field and walks off the turf with fewer grass stains on their uniform or some rot. I just don't get it. The team is better w/o Edwards. So why do so many people want to see him on the field and why are so many of you so excited to see him play like sh-- again and make the offense play like sh-- again? He's not good and there isn't anything besides this absurd notion that "he's poised" yet with absolutely no definition as to how or why it even matters behind it other than to say that others around him play better when that's not even true for the offensive players. Defensively, chah, don't we expect the defensive players to play better vs. Miami, the Jets, Browns, or Ravens than we do vs. Jax or NE? I guess not.
Guest dog14787 Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 I wish I could say I'm gonna laugh, but it's gonna be just another gut wrenching day, when about midseason you guys are all asking yourselves WTF this team is even doing. Edwards won't even be starting next year and never will again after this season is my prediction. The guy has played as poorly in his first season as some of the biggest first round busts of all time. You guys just won't see it all because everyone is screaming "poise." The disappointment will be great. At least with JP we would have a shot because he's improved steadily. And when he does replace Edwards who is going to be looking for work following the season in all likelihood, he will outperform Edwards before leaving the team. Again, not that he would be our future QB as he's probably not, but Edwards sure as hell doesn't give us our best chance of winning, that should be for damn sure. I say your wrong and to blind to see the writting on the wall.
krazykat Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 I say your wrong and to blind to see the writting on the wall. LOL Perhaps. We will see. I will say this, it's going to be an entertaining season right here though.
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 And let's not forget that under Edwards the team's TO ratio was +14 in his 9 starts where as it was -5 in Losmans. Gee, maybe we can see why now. Looking at the situationals, both QBs struggled to move the ball between the 20s. What is interesting: How markedly worse JPL was once he got across the 50. Most of that is getting careless with the ball, 4 INTS. Trent was very consistent regardless of field position. But throwing 2 INTs inside his own 20 -- not good. Both QBs had their horns pulled in significantly after crossing the 50. Edwards attempts plummet 35% and Losman's by 30%. Edit: Strike that last. The conclusion doesn't follow from the data.
The Big Cat Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 Well, when you say that you say it as if I think this team would be good if we did. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't start Edwards over anyone and if you break down his games all you have left is excuses as to why he sucked royally. Other than this "poise" thing which no one has even explained how it matters practically, there is absolutely nothing to his game. Zilch! If the team plays so much better otherwise, and all we we are going to get with this team playing better in other facets of the game is dead last offensive production and near dead last defensive production, and a downturn in STs from the year before, then I"ll simply pass. Why don't any of you have any higher standards for your own team? I would start JP over Edwards for the simple reason that the offense moves the ball more yards, scores more points on average, logs more 1st downs, converts more 3rd downs, etc. I mean isn't that what an offense is supposed to do? Seems to me that if you were to take a poll here the answer is no, it's not. It's supposed to see who looks better on the field and walks off the turf with fewer grass stains on their uniform or some rot. I just don't get it. The team is better w/o Edwards. So why do so many people want to see him on the field and why are so many of you so excited to see him play like sh-- again and make the offense play like sh-- again? He's not good and there isn't anything besides this absurd notion that "he's poised" yet with absolutely no definition as to how or why it even matters behind it other than to say that others around him play better when that's not even true for the offensive players. Defensively, chah, don't we expect the defensive players to play better vs. Miami, the Jets, Browns, or Ravens than we do vs. Jax or NE? I guess not. I see. Well, it's not worth the calories needed to type but: You keeping asking what is poise? And then you say poise means nothing. So far the answers have been: accuracy, patience, decision making, quick decision making, and the ability to stay un-rattled. Those are the "objective" answers to the "objective" questions you asked, yet you continue to respond: What is poise?/poise means nothing. If all the aforementioned qualities mean "nothing" then what does? Stats? If stats: you seem to have conveniently ignored my initial response which explained that Trent was superior in the ONE stat that does matter: Wins. So, in other words, you started this thread to discuss ("objectively!") your OPINION why JP should be the starter.
bills44 Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 Did Brad Johnson get there on pure skill? You are becomming progressively dumber. Can you work up some stats for your slide from dumb to moronic? Nah, that TB defense had nothing to do with Johnson getting to the Super Bowl, did it?
San-O Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 POISE = Less sacks and less fumbles. J.P. actually regressed his 4th year, and was worse his 2nd year than T.E. was his first. Your statements carry little weight, and are factually incorrect. http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losman/profile?id=LOS588329 http://www.nfl.com/players/trentedwards/profile?id=EDW720778
MattM Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 Other things to consider in this comparison: 1. Trent was a rookie who was 2nd/3rd string all camp long last year and had little pre-season time working with the first team; 2. Trent also played two games in abominable elements (Cleveland and NYG games) and still had a nearly equivalent (Cleveland--Anderson) or better (NYG--Manning) QB rating in those games as the Pro Bowl-level QBs he faced (and who each got to face our depleted D, no less, versus in the NYG case at least, facing a much tougher D). 3. JP clearly took a big step backwards last season, stat-wise, confidence-wise, winning-wise. He just looks lost out there sometimes. Look, I rooted very hard for the guy and wanted him to succeed in the worst way, but he had his chance last year and didn't take it. That Jags game was, by his own admission, "do or die" and he just played putridly. He has no one but himself to blame for his situation. If TE's not the answer, I don't think JP is either, unfortunately. I wish him the best wherever he ends up, as I think he's generally handled himself well here on a personal level, but as my father has always said about him, he just doesn't seem to have "it."
krazykat Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 Looking at the situationals, both QBs struggled to move the ball between the 20s. What is interesting: How markedly worse JPL was once he got across the 50. Most of that is getting careless with the ball, 4 INTS. Trent was very consistent regardless of field position. But throwing 2 INTs inside his own 20 -- not good. Both QBs had their horns pulled in significantly after crossing the 50. Edwards attempts plummet 35% and Losman's by 30%. Edit: Strike that last. The conclusion doesn't follow from the data. JP had his horns yanked by his own team in '05 with that in/out involving Holcomb, whom Edwards reminds me of in spades. As to Edwards, he had one good game against Miami. Otherwise he sucked to beat the band last year. So he'd better come out and throw more than two or three good games against 1-15 teams or things are going to go from bad to worse for us. Obviously my confidence in that happening is zero.
Albany,n.y. Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 Can't you look it up yourself? I said offense too. So before you start giving Edwards credit for the 4 STs and D TDs he got on his watch contrasted with 1 for JP, at least be fair there. Here's another exercise for you; how many 3rd down conversions did the team have on a per game basis under JP contrasted with Edwards? It's amazing to me how many people chime in without having the facts before them. Today all of this data is laid out for you by Nfl.com or other sites. All you have to do is sort it. Also, how about 1st-downs converted between the two again, on average. See, you have no idea yet you assume that it was better under Edwards when it wasn't. In fact, under Edwards we sucked atrociously in 3rd downs converted. Easily league last, easily. Yet everyone still says that he moved the ball more. Whatever. Disclaimer: I used the scores provided in the player link posted above, I think they're right but have not independently verified them. Well, here's the problem with the nonsense that you've been spreading as your proof that JP puts more points up: Lets look at team points to show how truly dreadful JP was as a scoring QB last year. Against Cincinnati, the Bills scored 33 points. Aside from that one game, the TEAM never scored more than 14 points in the other 5 games that JP was the QB for the entire game. Are you happy with a guy who against every other team he played, except the dreadful Bengals D, the team couldn't muster more than 14 points? Cold fact, with JP playing the entire game, the Bills averaged 14.50 points per game, inflated by the 33 Bengals points-otherwise, in the other 5 games, JP led Bills averaged a meager 10.8 points. Subtracting the high & low games, elevates the point total to 12.75. The median points produced in the 6 JP exclusive games was 13.50 points. Meanwhile with Edwards taking all the snaps (8 games), the team averaged 18.125 points per game. The team scored 38 against the Dolphins (the same team JP led Bills could only muster 13 points against-I'll give you home vs road, but that much difference?) Take away the high and Trent exclusive Bills scored an average of 15.286 points-including the 0 in a friggin blizzard! Now subtract both low & high and Trent Bills average 17.83 points. The median points produced in 8 Trent exclusive games was 18 points. Well now lets see Trent's best three team led point totals: 38, 24, 21 =83 points. JP's: 33, 14, 14=61 points. The three worst are Trent: 17, 9, 0 =26 points. JP's 13, 10, 3 = the same 26 points. You can play with stats that show JP's offense may have put up more points, but the team clearly scores more with Trent Edwards playing than with JP playing. Have you ever considered that maybe the team scores more with Trent than JP is because even when he doesn't score, the fact that Trent keeps the team moving downfield helps set up the points scored by ST and D. You can try to subtract those points and I don't know if you even have a valid argument since I'm not going to look up how many strictly offensive points were generated each game, but the bottom line is Trent led Bills teams score more than JP led Bills teams and there's nothing you can twist to deny that fact. Oh and another thing, when you're more efficient as Edwards is, you don't get into the need to convert on 3rd down. Maybe JP was statistically better because he is more experienced at forcing 3rd downs.
krazykat Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 I see. Well, it's not worth the calories needed to type but: You keeping asking what is poise? And then you say poise means nothing. So far the answers have been: accuracy, patience, decision making, quick decision making, and the ability to stay un-rattled. Those are the "objective" answers to the "objective" questions you asked, yet you continue to respond: What is poise?/poise means nothing. If all the aforementioned qualities mean "nothing" then what does? Stats? If stats: you seem to have conveniently ignored my initial response which explained that Trent was superior in the ONE stat that does matter: Wins. So, in other words, you started this thread to discuss ("objectively!") your OPINION why JP should be the starter. So in your mind then having compiled a 5-4 record as a starter, with wins against teams that were collectively 23-57 or an average of 5-11 is all that matters then, huh, especially when it was because the defense held pathetic offensive teams down. In four of those five wins the Bills scored a total of three offensive TDs. And you think that Edwards contributed heavily to those wins. Whatever. Well, good for you. I personally expect a little bit more from my teams. But hey, to each his own.
krazykat Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 POISE = Less sacks and less fumbles. J.P. actually regressed his 4th year, and was worse his 2nd year than T.E. was his first. Your statements carry little weight, and are factually incorrect. http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losman/profile?id=LOS588329 http://www.nfl.com/players/trentedwards/profile?id=EDW720778 Less scoring too apparently, huh. LOL Which statements are you referring to? Without citing them I don't know..
Adam Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 So in your mind then having compiled a 5-4 record as a starter, with wins against teams that were collectively 23-57 or an average of 5-11 is all that matters then, huh, especially when it was because the defense held pathetic offensive teams down. In four of those five wins the Bills scored a total of three offensive TDs. And you think that Edwards contributed heavily to those wins. Whatever. Well, good for you. I personally expect a little bit more from my teams. But hey, to each his own. Krazykat- this may be the most insightful post I've seen out of you so far
krazykat Posted July 20, 2008 Author Posted July 20, 2008 Other things to consider in this comparison: 1. Trent was a rookie who was 2nd/3rd string all camp long last year and had little pre-season time working with the first team; 2. Trent also played two games in abominable elements (Cleveland and NYG games) and still had a nearly equivalent (Cleveland--Anderson) or better (NYG--Manning) QB rating in those games as the Pro Bowl-level QBs he faced (and who each got to face our depleted D, no less, versus in the NYG case at least, facing a much tougher D). 3. JP clearly took a big step backwards last season, stat-wise, confidence-wise, winning-wise. He just looks lost out there sometimes. Look, I rooted very hard for the guy and wanted him to succeed in the worst way, but he had his chance last year and didn't take it. That Jags game was, by his own admission, "do or die" and he just played putridly. He has no one but himself to blame for his situation. If TE's not the answer, I don't think JP is either, unfortunately. I wish him the best wherever he ends up, as I think he's generally handled himself well here on a personal level, but as my father has always said about him, he just doesn't seem to have "it." 1. Excuse 2. Excuse 3. They changed the offense up on him and clearly wanted Edwards in there as their man. There were already rumblings prior to the season starting. It wasn't a big shock. Still, you laud Edwards implicitly, but still, no one addresses the fact that under Edwards the team produced significantly fewer 1st downs, fewer points/game although not by anything significant, and converted significantly fewer 3rd downs raising questions indeed as to how much Edwards actually contributed to wins with hardly any offensive point production. I mean can I say that it was because of Brad Butler that we won all of our games last year? Regardless, I fail to see how less production means greater contributions. No matter how you slice it, it was worse under Edwards. Except for the "poise" of course.
Adam Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 1. Excuse 2. Excuse I have to disagree. It takes time for a QB to develop. He never should have been in there last year.
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 JP had his horns yanked by his own team in '05 with that in/out involving Holcomb, whom Edwards reminds me of in spades. As to Edwards, he had one good game against Miami. Otherwise he sucked to beat the band last year. So he'd better come out and throw more than two or three good games against 1-15 teams or things are going to go from bad to worse for us. Obviously my confidence in that happening is zero. There was a thread a while back about the Bills handling of the development of their 1st round project from Tulane and whether the Bills followed some sort of textbook formula on how to fug it up. Anyway, I removed that last comment because it wasn't limited to the passing game but carried over to the running game just as well. The 08 offense of the Bills took over 1/3 fewer snaps on the positive side of the field. They took less when Edwards was in there, but not significantly so. Still, playing most of the time in your end of the field is not a recipe for success.
The Big Cat Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 So in your mind then having compiled a 5-4 record as a starter, with wins against teams that were collectively 23-57 or an average of 5-11 is all that matters then, huh, especially when it was because the defense held pathetic offensive teams down. In four of those five wins the Bills scored a total of three offensive TDs. And you think that Edwards contributed heavily to those wins. Whatever. Well, good for you. I personally expect a little bit more from my teams. But hey, to each his own. You're a troll.
thebug Posted July 20, 2008 Posted July 20, 2008 1. Excuse 2. Excuse 3. They changed the offense up on him and clearly wanted Edwards in there as their man. There were already rumblings prior to the season starting. It wasn't a big shock. Still, you laud Edwards implicitly, but still, no one addresses the fact that under Edwards the team produced significantly fewer 1st downs, fewer points/game although not by anything significant, and converted significantly fewer 3rd downs raising questions indeed as to how much Edwards actually contributed to wins with hardly any offensive point production. I mean can I say that it was because of Brad Butler that we won all of our games last year? Regardless, I fail to see how less production means greater contributions. No matter how you slice it, it was worse under Edwards. Except for the "poise" of course. TE doesn't get time to get experience, yet JP gets a 10 year pass from you. You should really get some balls and start a thread about that fact you are in love with JP instead of disguising the topic. Your lack of knowledge is apparent. Oh yah and "poise" means looking like you belong at the QB position, not looking like a deer in headlights on every play and yes that means something in the NFL, it means you are the starter! GO BILLS!
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