Allow me to ask...

[krazykat]

Again, I think the real issue is the coaching staff saw J.P. for a full season, were underimpressed, drafted a 3rd rounder

who stepped in when J.P. went down, and did just enough (as a rookie) to warrent the starting job.

 

Regarding poise, there is a "badness" indicator I made up in the past, and J.P.'s badness value is almost twice as high

as that of Trents.

 

A high value is bad.

Well IDK what he did as a rookie to earn the job besides get drafted and have positive things said about him.

 

Either way, the team determined last year that he would better help the team win, not be best as the team moved forward into the future. By their calculations, the offense performed worse under him. It's difficult to tally Ws and Ls for each QB when JP played the Pats twice and the Jags while Edwards got the Jets twice, Miami, the Ravens, Bengals, etc., all the worst teams on the schedule besides Miami once.

 

Also, JP played mostly when Lynch was in his first games as a rookie while Edwards got him with more seasoning. Still, the O performed better under JP. It scored more on average, got more 1st downs, more 3rd down conversions, and although not by a big enough margin to be good, still better than Edwards, whose performances everyone is overlooking in favor of statements such that he's poised.

 

My response is so what, who cares if he leaves the locker room with platform shoes and a bell dress on, if it doesn't help the team, who cares.

 

I suppose deep down I'm just wondering at what point fans and media gave up looking at what an offense under a QB actually produces rather than how he looks in a uniform or some other meaningless notion.

 

I'm also not sure that most Bills fans truly realize how pathetic our offense was with Edwards under center.

 

On top of that, we were +9 in Turnover Ratio on the season. Under Edwards we were +14 while under JP we were therefore -5. The QB doesn't get credit for that since they don't generate takeaways. So in spite of that, Edwards' offense was still less productive. In his 9 starts that's an average of over 1.5 TO+ per game. To achieve that the team will need a +25 TO ratio this year which would have led the league last year.

 

He also got the help of 4 non-offensive TDs in his 9 starts whereas Losman only got the help of one.

 

I guess that my point is that under Edwards, who only proved that neither he nor the team could score with him under center, and that beat only the worst teams, did so with record TO ratio production and record non-offensive TD production. So can we assume that he will get that again this year? If not, how will that help/hurt the play of the offense under him but more importantly, how will it help/hurt us in winning games?

[eball]

Irony = krazykat asking for an objective viewpoint.

[San-O]

Irony = krazykat asking for an objective viewpoint.

 

The thinly veiled responses of a J.P. homer are apparent also.

 

[JoeF]

Was the game plan different for JP than it was for Edwards last year?

 

JP also played the few tough Ds that we faced too except for the Cowboys.

 

Still, you mention a lot of what you hope for and wish, but what was the solid part of Edwards play? Saying that he has poise only goes so far, as far as the words go and no more. You didn't answer the question or help me understand why we should expect something from Edwards other than by saying that since he didn't do things last year we can expect him to do them this year.

 

And what about all those open receivers we saw him miss? Was it the game plan that disallowed those, or is that possibly a flag going forward?

 

And as far as a defense getting closer to supporting a gunslinger, what do you mean by that specifically? IMO if a defense is that good then the O shouldn't need a gunslinger. It should be able to run ball control.

 

Seems like you aren't being honest with your objective. Is it to make the case for JP? Is it to ask what factor "poise" is?

 

I think I answered the original question by saying

 

1) The offense we ran last year was more about keeping the weak and injured D off the field than it was about scoring points

2) I am not sure what "poise" is--I think field intelligence (awareness of down, distance, routes, break points, advice to receivers, etc.), quick decision making, quick moves through his progressions are skills Trent has -- my opinion is that he displayed these skills on several occaisons last year.

3) Gunslinger is defined as holding the ball, waiting on a play to develop for a deeper throw. JP does that a lot. He is less worried about the occasional negative play because he believes he can make it up on the next play with his mobility and arm.

4) Every QB I know misses open receivers--there's 5 of them out there on almost every passing play and usually 2 or 3 are somewhat open -- if they aren't you need a new OC. Now "open" in the NFL is a quarter step in some cases -- the throwing windows are tight. Trent showed an ability to fit the ball into those tight windows on short and medium routes with some consistency last year and that fit the scheme Fairchild wanted. We simply don't know a lot about the entire arsenal Trent has because he was wrapped tightly into a system last year that was limiting. I want to see what he can do with the reigns a little less tight. We are going to get to see that this year...he could bomb as easily as succeed.

 

I am not sure what you are aiming for here? Are you really wondering about poise or trying to dismiss it as a factor. Define what you mean by poise and maybe someone can provide useful information.

[MattM]

I'm also not quite sure karzykat is correct about whether we scored more on average with JP or TE--I thought I saw somewhere recently where we averaged 19 ppg with TE and only 14 or so with JP. Can anyone confirm that either way?

[keepthefaith]

Well IDK what he did as a rookie to earn the job besides get drafted and have positive things said about him.

 

Either way, the team determined last year that he would better help the team win, not be best as the team moved forward into the future. By their calculations, the offense performed worse under him. It's difficult to tally Ws and Ls for each QB when JP played the Pats twice and the Jags while Edwards got the Jets twice, Miami, the Ravens, Bengals, etc., all the worst teams on the schedule besides Miami once.

 

Also, JP played mostly when Lynch was in his first games as a rookie while Edwards got him with more seasoning. Still, the O performed better under JP. It scored more on average, got more 1st downs, more 3rd down conversions, and although not by a big enough margin to be good, still better than Edwards, whose performances everyone is overlooking in favor of statements such that he's poised.

 

My response is so what, who cares if he leaves the locker room with platform shoes and a bell dress on, if it doesn't help the team, who cares.

 

I suppose deep down I'm just wondering at what point fans and media gave up looking at what an offense under a QB actually produces rather than how he looks in a uniform or some other meaningless notion.

 

I'm also not sure that most Bills fans truly realize how pathetic our offense was with Edwards under center.

 

On top of that, we were +9 in Turnover Ratio on the season. Under Edwards we were +14 while under JP we were therefore -5. The QB doesn't get credit for that since they don't generate takeaways. So in spite of that, Edwards' offense was still less productive. In his 9 starts that's an average of over 1.5 TO+ per game. To achieve that the team will need a +25 TO ratio this year which would have led the league last year.

 

He also got the help of 4 non-offensive TDs in his 9 starts whereas Losman only got the help of one.

 

I guess that my point is that under Edwards, who only proved that neither he nor the team could score with him under center, and that beat only the worst teams, did so with record TO ratio production and record non-offensive TD production. So can we assume that he will get that again this year? If not, how will that help/hurt the play of the offense under him but more importantly, how will it help/hurt us in winning games?

 

I think JP played more while Lynch was hurt and was handing the ball to A-Train in a couple games. The Bills coaches finally woke up later and had Fred Jackson carry the ball more when Edwards was in and Lynch was still out.

[The Big Cat]

Well IDK what he did as a rookie to earn the job besides get drafted and have positive things said about him.

 

Either way, the team determined last year that he would better help the team win, not be best as the team moved forward into the future. By their calculations, the offense performed worse under him. It's difficult to tally Ws and Ls for each QB when JP played the Pats twice and the Jags while Edwards got the Jets twice, Miami, the Ravens, Bengals, etc., all the worst teams on the schedule besides Miami once.

 

Also, JP played mostly when Lynch was in his first games as a rookie while Edwards got him with more seasoning. Still, the O performed better under JP. It scored more on average, got more 1st downs, more 3rd down conversions, and although not by a big enough margin to be good, still better than Edwards, whose performances everyone is overlooking in favor of statements such that he's poised.

 

My response is so what, who cares if he leaves the locker room with platform shoes and a bell dress on, if it doesn't help the team, who cares.

 

I suppose deep down I'm just wondering at what point fans and media gave up looking at what an offense under a QB actually produces rather than how he looks in a uniform or some other meaningless notion.

 

I'm also not sure that most Bills fans truly realize how pathetic our offense was with Edwards under center.

 

On top of that, we were +9 in Turnover Ratio on the season. Under Edwards we were +14 while under JP we were therefore -5. The QB doesn't get credit for that since they don't generate takeaways. So in spite of that, Edwards' offense was still less productive. In his 9 starts that's an average of over 1.5 TO+ per game. To achieve that the team will need a +25 TO ratio this year which would have led the league last year.

 

He also got the help of 4 non-offensive TDs in his 9 starts whereas Losman only got the help of one.

 

I guess that my point is that under Edwards, who only proved that neither he nor the team could score with him under center, and that beat only the worst teams, did so with record TO ratio production and record non-offensive TD production. So can we assume that he will get that again this year? If not, how will that help/hurt the play of the offense under him but more importantly, how will it help/hurt us in winning games?

 

48 Defensive players on IR = a weaker defense = playing from behind = making a rookie QB pass way more often than he should. What makes Trent special? He handled the responsibility far better than the VAAAAAAST majority of ROOKIES would in similar situations. In week 15 last year, Bills fans were talking playoffs. WHAT!? Playoffs? But your offense was the worst in the league, your defense was ravaged, and you were riding the backs of rookies at QB/RB. That's right, almost made the playoffs last year.

 

Go ahead, write that off as coulda-woulda-shoulda-didn't. To me, it carries gravity.

 

Passing Yards and TD's (your lone criteria for Edwards' evaluation) ≠ wins and losses.

 

Buffalo was 4-5 in games where Trent got the majority of the passes. I'm even tossing you a bone here because I'm counting the first NE game and NOT the Jets game when JP came in and threw a TD to go up by 10 late in the fourth. Take those away- count only starts, and Buffalo's 5-4.

 

JP with the Jets TD = 3-4. Without he = 2-4.

 

JP ='d his third year. Trent ='d his first year. For better or worse, they were quite comparable, but in my mind the edge SHOULD have gone to the third year man.

 

Now may be we're picking between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich- I say, let's see how Trent does having had a year (and not just the time between plays mid-game) to prepare for being a starting NFL quarterback. Then you can flame away.

[Ray]

Trent may not be the ultimate answer.....although I think he has a good chance to finally be the QB the Bills need for the next 10 years. We do know that JP is not the guy, even though we all desperately wanted him to be.....the complete lack of interest from any of the other teams certainly speaks volumes about the league's view of him...although I'll always maintain JP is a great guy. He is an average QB at best who will probably find his niche as a back-up QB.

Trent has the most important thing a QB needs in today's NFL and that is intelligence and the ability to make quick decisions. Demonstrating that as a rookie was huge. Taking a guy from Standford who did not know a soul on a team across the country and have him come in and outplay our starter in both the pre-season and regular season was a pretty big thing. I think he really is going to be a great fit for this team. Growing pains to be expected given year two but overall we will see improvement from an already solid year one.

[krazykat]

The thinly veiled responses of a J.P. homer are apparent also.

 

I'm not a JP homer though.

 

But dismissing the simple facts that the offense performed better under him reveals that you may be an Edwards homer though.

 

He still sucked, but as the facts show, it was better than Edwards. In fact, our best offensive performance by a long shot was with Losman under center.

[Bmwolf21]

I can't speak for "everyone", and I can't say that my views are entirely "objective", in that I've never had the time, energy, interest or capability to sit down and watch endless tapes on Trent Edwards' performance last year. Given these provisos, however, the primary strength I could discern in Edwards' technique is his quick release. This is particularly true when compared to Losman, who, while not exactly Bledsoesque, did have a tendency to hold the ball too long behind a suspect offensive line while waiting for the double-team on Evans to turn into a triple-team.

 

I can't tell you whether Edwards has a natural instinct to get rid of the ball in a New York Minute, or whether the play called for it, or whether he was running around out there like a bug on crack. The ball DID seem to get out a lot faster. Related to that point, it seemed that he had the presence of mind to throw the ball away (sidelines, back of the end zone) rather than take a sack, or thread a needle that wasn't there.

 

Again, these are not "objective". I'm not an ex-coach or X-and-O geek. I'm stating these as a fan of the game who watches the game through goggles that get increasingly fogged by Molson by the fourth quarter.

I applaud your honesty, and frankly I wish more posters would admit that they have no frigging clue what the offense was supposed to do on a certain play, what the reads were, who the hot receiver was, what the call was in the huddle, etc. It's easy to sit in a recliner and yell at the TV (and I'm as guilty as anyone) but to try to pass off your individual opinions as Gospel is pretty ridiculous.

 

Trent's Strengths that I see:

 

Does make a quick decision in the pocket.

Throws a nice catchable short ball and can place the ball well short (under 15 yards)

makes low risk decisions

Does not appear to get rattled in the pocket

For how little experience he has, he seems to have a good mental grasp of what has to be done

 

Weaknesses I see:

 

Good at getting rid of the ball when rushed but not very good at avoiding the rush. Rush defense knows where he'll be and can key on that.

Tendency to take low risk choices makes it easy for defense to defend longer routes.

Emotionally a bit robotic. Leadership IMO requires some fire from time to time.

Experience

Predictable

Not ready to label him as injury prone, but he has not proved that he can hold up physically long term

I think that's a pretty good take. A lot of the weaknesses can be eliminated through experience and instruction, so I'm hoping that Jauron and co. don't screw around with him and let him work through his struggles. On a side note, I'd also put his long ball in an "Uncertain" category. I want to see more consistency on his long ball and a little less air under it.

 

hmmmm so you are saying Trent did none of that last year as a rookie?

cause I can assure you, there are plenty of Bills fans that would disagree

again, he didn't play horrible but the bolded part is what you are blanketing rookie QB's but trying to give TE a pass, and last year he did do those same things you list

Agreed.

[The Big Cat]

I'm not a JP homer though.

 

But dismissing the simple facts that the offense performed better under him reveals that you may be an Edwards homer though.

 

He still sucked, but as the facts show, it was better than Edwards. In fact, our best offensive performance by a long shot was with Losman under center.

 

Okay buddy, you need to show me a link to facts that the offense did better under JP.

[Flbillsfan#1]

I'm also not quite sure karzykat is correct about whether we scored more on average with JP or TE--I thought I saw somewhere recently where we averaged 19 ppg with TE and only 14 or so with JP. Can anyone confirm that either way?

I don't know either, but I can tell you Trent threw only 7 TD's last year in 9 starts & the Pats game which he played most of. Less than a TD per game is not very good, hopefully he will throw at least 1 TD per game in 08.

[krazykat]

I'm also not quite sure karzykat is correct about whether we scored more on average with JP or TE--I thought I saw somewhere recently where we averaged 19 ppg with TE and only 14 or so with JP. Can anyone confirm that either way?

Can't you look it up yourself?

 

I said offense too. So before you start giving Edwards credit for the 4 STs and D TDs he got on his watch contrasted with 1 for JP, at least be fair there.

 

Here's another exercise for you; how many 3rd down conversions did the team have on a per game basis under JP contrasted with Edwards?

 

It's amazing to me how many people chime in without having the facts before them. Today all of this data is laid out for you by Nfl.com or other sites. All you have to do is sort it.

 

Also, how about 1st-downs converted between the two again, on average.

 

See, you have no idea yet you assume that it was better under Edwards when it wasn't. In fact, under Edwards we sucked atrociously in 3rd downs converted. Easily league last, easily. Yet everyone still says that he moved the ball more. Whatever.

[Guest dog14787]

hmmmm so you are saying Trent did none of that last year as a rookie?

cause I can assure you, there are plenty of Bills fans that would disagree

again, he didn't play horrible but the bolded part is what you are blanketing rookie QB's but trying to give TE a pass, and last year he did do those same things you list

 

 

I was trying to show a connection between poise and leadership or how it helps build confidence with your teamates and coaches by appearing to be under control and hard to rattle.

 

All QB's make bad decisions from time to time and they also throw interceptions so I fail to see your point.

[cantankerous]

Every time Losman would drop back to pass, I would freeze, grit my teeth and hope.

 

 

 

I'd like to add cringe to go along with your gritting teeth.

[Bill from NYC]

And please, don't read into this, I am not suggesting that JP is the answer in the least although the team, as a team, has put up more points on average with him under center and has generally been marginally more effective otherwise from an offensive standpoint.

 

Congrats! You have passed the stage of idiocy, and reached the stage of hyproctitical lunacy.

 

C'mon....Trent has started 9 or so games. Tell us the real reason that you love JP oh so much.

[thebug]

From what I can tell the going phrase is that "he's poised."

 

As I see it that's all fine and dandy, but how does that manifest itself on the field?

 

I mean the goal is to move the ball and score points, but the Bills were the worst at those two things combined last year easily.

 

So if the choices were having a QB that lacked poise, but could put up yards and points, wouldn't that be better?

 

What does this "poise" get for us on the field? What has it gotten for us on the field?

 

I sincerely do not understand this overemphasis on some extremely soft indicator that doesn't reflect in the team's offensive stats.

 

And please, don't read into this, I am not suggesting that JP is the answer in the least although the team, as a team, has put up more points on average with him under center and has generally been marginally more effective otherwise from an offensive standpoint.

 

It's like someone said that Edwards is poised last year and that all of a sudden "poise" is the final indicator of a QB in this league. You read it in just about every preview about this team meaning that it's clearly driven by the media and yet it is never accompanied by the fact that under Edwards, with all of that poise, and with Lynch in the backfield and a revamped line, the team's offense was the worst that the franchise has ever seen.

 

And on a side note, last year's yardage D ranking was the worst that this franchise has ever seen. Yet Jauron has defenders.

 

 

Why didn't you just come out and say it, you think JP should start over TE. It doesn't matter what answers you get from people, you just come back with "how come we were the worst ever with him in there" blah blah. If you think JP should be the guy, then just come out and say it. Did you really expect more from TE?

[krazykat]

Seems like you aren't being honest with your objective. Is it to make the case for JP? Is it to ask what factor "poise" is?

 

I think I answered the original question by saying

 

1) The offense we ran last year was more about keeping the weak and injured D off the field than it was about scoring points

2) I am not sure what "poise" is--I think field intelligence (awareness of down, distance, routes, break points, advice to receivers, etc.), quick decision making, quick moves through his progressions are skills Trent has -- my opinion is that he displayed these skills on several occaisons last year.

3) Gunslinger is defined as holding the ball, waiting on a play to develop for a deeper throw. JP does that a lot. He is less worried about the occasional negative play because he believes he can make it up on the next play with his mobility and arm.

4) Every QB I know misses open receivers--there's 5 of them out there on almost every passing play and usually 2 or 3 are somewhat open -- if they aren't you need a new OC. Now "open" in the NFL is a quarter step in some cases -- the throwing windows are tight. Trent showed an ability to fit the ball into those tight windows on short and medium routes with some consistency last year and that fit the scheme Fairchild wanted. We simply don't know a lot about the entire arsenal Trent has because he was wrapped tightly into a system last year that was limiting. I want to see what he can do with the reigns a little less tight. We are going to get to see that this year...he could bomb as easily as succeed.

 

I am not sure what you are aiming for here? Are you really wondering about poise or trying to dismiss it as a factor. Define what you mean by poise and maybe someone can provide useful information.

My objective is to discuss reality, not fantasy. It's to ascertain what is really wrong and not simply what we'd like to be wrong with this sorry franchise.

 

1. The offense we ran last year was designed entirely to protect Edwards and not throw him to the wolves. That was Schonert's philosophy as a QB coach according to his own words. But you knew that, right.

 

2. Perhaps someone had better define it and see if it all adds up since it's been made the focal point of "what's right" about him. Don't you think. Otherwise it could mean different things to different people. To me in this context it means that Edwards' didn't fall apart under pressure. But then again he didn't face the pressure that Fairchild had JP under in '06 either now, did he.

 

The dictionary definition of poise is: To carry or hold in equilibrium; balance. Tells us a whole lot, doesn't it.

 

3. Sounds good here. Either way, JP is better on third downs too which you wouldn't think based on your implications. Last season Losman completed 56.3 of his 3rd-down passes with 1 TD/1 INT. Edwards completed 48.3% of his with 1 TD/3 INTs. So which one was better on 3rd-downs. I'll say Losman just out of the blue and because apparently I'm a JP homer for suggesting that. LOL

 

4. Say what you want about Edwards, Fairchild, and the system last year. The results were utterly pathetic. We had the fewest offensive TDs in the history of the franchise by 4 TDs from what I can tell and we scored less per game under Edwards than we did under Losman. Neither was good.

 

I am not sure what you are aiming for here? Are you really wondering about poise or trying to dismiss it as a factor. Define what you mean by poise and maybe someone can provide useful information.

 

Not to try and rub you the wrong way or anything, but I find that the information that I'm providing is at least factual regardless of whether you do much with it or not. What I'm aiming for is to attempt to get an explanation from someone per my original post in post #1 of this thread, why anyone has hope in a QB that essentially led us to franchise worst offensive production last year in only stating that he has poise.

 

I've never heard of a QB going to the Super Bowl on poise. Have you.

[krazykat]

I think JP played more while Lynch was hurt and was handing the ball to A-Train in a couple games. The Bills coaches finally woke up later and had Fred Jackson carry the ball more when Edwards was in and Lynch was still out.

You know, that's another very good damn point directed at the Edwards butt kissers.

 

JP came in while Lynch was out for the NE and Jax games. Was Edwards hurt then or something?

 

Interestingly JP still played better than Edwards did in at least 7 of his 9 starts against crap teams though. And as you suggest, he did it without Lynch in the lineup.

 

Unbelieveable. I have no idea if Edwards was injured or if the team did this intentionally knowing that JP didn't have a chance at a win and so not as to tarnish their hand selected pretty boy's record or what.

 

Just one more example why comparisons between the two QBs is completely unfair last year, and in spite of that the team was still more productive offensively under Losman.

 

And let's not forget that under Edwards the team's TO ratio was +14 in his 9 starts where as it was -5 in Losmans. Gee, maybe we can see why now.

 

And people expect us to extend credibility to this coaching staff or to succomb to notions that the team played better under Edwards. Unreal.

[Bill from NYC]

I've never heard of a QB going to the Super Bowl on poise. Have you.

 

Did Brad Johnson get there on pure skill? You are becomming progressively dumber. Can you work up some stats for your slide from dumb to moronic?