Allow me to ask...

[krazykat]

Disclaimer: I used the scores provided in the player link posted above, I think they're right but have not independently verified them.

Well, here's the problem with the nonsense that you've been spreading as your proof that JP puts more points up:

Lets look at team points to show how truly dreadful JP was as a scoring QB last year. Against Cincinnati, the Bills scored 33 points. Aside from that one game, the TEAM never scored more than 14 points in the other 5 games that JP was the QB for the entire game. Are you happy with a guy who against every other team he played, except the dreadful Bengals D, the team couldn't muster more than 14 points?

Cold fact, with JP playing the entire game, the Bills averaged 14.50 points per game, inflated by the 33 Bengals points-otherwise, in the other 5 games, JP led Bills averaged a meager 10.8 points. Subtracting the high & low games, elevates the point total to 12.75. The median points produced in the 6 JP exclusive games was 13.50 points.

Meanwhile with Edwards taking all the snaps (8 games), the team averaged 18.125 points per game. The team scored 38 against the Dolphins (the same team JP led Bills could only muster 13 points against-I'll give you home vs road, but that much difference?) Take away the high and Trent exclusive Bills scored an average of 15.286 points-including the 0 in a friggin blizzard! Now subtract both low & high and Trent Bills average 17.83 points. The median points produced in 8 Trent exclusive games was 18 points.

Well now lets see Trent's best three team led point totals: 38, 24, 21 =83 points. JP's: 33, 14, 14=61 points.

The three worst are Trent: 17, 9, 0 =26 points. JP's 13, 10, 3 = the same 26 points.

You can play with stats that show JP's offense may have put up more points, but the team clearly scores more with Trent Edwards playing than with JP playing. Have you ever considered that maybe the team scores more with Trent than JP is because even when he doesn't score, the fact that Trent keeps the team moving downfield helps set up the points scored by ST and D. You can try to subtract those points and I don't know if you even have a valid argument since I'm not going to look up how many strictly offensive points were generated each game, but the bottom line is Trent led Bills teams score more than JP led Bills teams and there's nothing you can twist to deny that fact. Oh and another thing, when you're more efficient as Edwards is, you don't get into the need to convert on 3rd down. Maybe JP was statistically better because he is more experienced at forcing 3rd downs.

 

Here are the flaws in your reasoning. You attribute team scoring to the offense and QB. I have never attributed D/STs scoring to the offense or QB or blamed them when they didn't come.

 

As to your ridiculous example of the Fins, they had far more injuries in the second game, you can look that up yourself. Oh, but I forgot, injuries only make a difference when you're us. My error.

 

In the meantime try subtracting the 28 point from D and Sts scores that Edwards got compared with only 7 for JP and also don't forget to subtract from Edwards and give to JP the only TD in the 13-3 Jets game that you probably counted for Edwards.

 

If you do all that then you'll be squared away.

 

In 9 Edwards' starts the team put up 10 offensive TDs. And actually, in reviewing, where I made an error is not giving Trent the credit for the 7 points that Lynch got in the first NE game that he didn't start. So that makes 11 of 20 offensive TDs in 9 starts, really 10 total games since Edwards played pretty much the entire first NE game, right.

 

That means that under JP the team put up 9 TDs in 7 starts but really only 6 games because he only played two plays.

 

So then, under JP the team's offense scored 9 TDs or an average of 1.5/game. Under Edwards, the team's offense scored 11 TDs in 10 games or an average of 1.1/game. So under Losman the team's offense did in fact score 50% (or so) more by normal math.

 

Otherwise I really don't see too much of a difference other than that the TO ratio in games that Edwards started was +13 including the first Pats game whereas it was then -4 in games that Losman started not including that game. Now presumably we can agree that having a TO ratio difference of 17 makes a difference in the team's logging wins.

 

Otherwise, you cannot alter the fact that in 6 of Edwards' 9 starts not a single passing TD was thrown and in 5 of the same 9 games not a single offensive TD was made.

 

After that, you confuse me with someone that thinks that JP is something besides a very questionable QB. I don't think the team is that much different under either one. Meanwhile, your intentional skewing of the Fins game to suggest that somehow Edwards was responsible for all 38 points when in fact 7 came from a Wilson FR for a TD whereas in the Cincy game under JP the team put up almost 500 yards of offense and scored all 33 points if you include the FGs. Granted, only 21 points from the O otherwise.

 

And look, contrary to the gang mentality here I'm not a big Losman fan. I was against the trading up to get him at the time. Either way the team is in a world of hurt. I just don't share everyone's enthusiasm for the next on a long list of what I see as pretty predictable failures. When I'm wrong you can lambaste me til the cows come home, I won't care. But I won't be on Edwards. He's not gonna do well this year and eveyrone's gonna be disappointed.

 

I'd like to start seeing some open letters to Wilson telling him to get serious about this team. Instead when some of the dumbest moves that any football team has ever made are made by him everyone kisses his a$$ and says what great moves they were.

 

If he had been doing this from the start then we wouldn't be having conversations like this.

[krazykat]

You're a troll.

OK, I'm a troll then, whatever makes you happy.

[MarkAF43]

I was trying to show a connection between poise and leadership or how it helps build confidence with your teamates and coaches by appearing to be under control and hard to rattle.

 

All QB's make bad decisions from time to time and they also throw interceptions so I fail to see your point.

 

go back and read your first post, that's not the way you stated it...... that's why my reply was what it was...... not trying to be a jerk, just replying to what you put out there

you made it seem that he was better than most rookies last year, and well he did have his moments he had plenty of forehead slapping moments just like any other rookie. For the most part, he was par for the course for a 3rd round draft pick and hopefully going forward he improves on his previous mistakes

[krazykat]

I have to disagree. It takes time for a QB to develop. He never should have been in there last year.

That's an excuse too.

 

That's fine, and I don't disagree. But what it doesn't suggest is that he's only on his way up this year. You cannot make that conclusion from what you're saying. You can hope, but evne the facts paint a different picture.

[keepthefaith]

I see.

 

Well, it's not worth the calories needed to type but: You keeping asking what is poise? And then you say poise means nothing.

 

So far the answers have been: accuracy, patience, decision making, quick decision making, and the ability to stay un-rattled. Those are the "objective" answers to the "objective" questions you asked, yet you continue to respond: What is poise?/poise means nothing. If all the aforementioned qualities mean "nothing" then what does? Stats?

 

If stats: you seem to have conveniently ignored my initial response which explained that Trent was superior in the ONE stat that does matter: Wins.

 

So, in other words, you started this thread to discuss ("objectively!") your OPINION why JP should be the starter.

 

Regardless of which side of the JP/Trent argument people are on, I think it's fair to say that valid arguments can be made both ways. Good thing is that if Trent is the starter this year, he can simply end the debate with how he plays or doesn't play. No problem Trent, just go out and show us all that the coaches are making the right choice.

[krazykat]

Krazykat- this may be the most insightful post I've seen out of you so far

Well thank you.

[krazykat]

TE doesn't get time to get experience, yet JP gets a 10 year pass from you. You should really get some balls and start a thread about that fact you are in love with JP instead of disguising the topic. Your lack of knowledge is apparent. Oh yah and "poise" means looking like you belong at the QB position, not looking like a deer in headlights on every play and yes that means something in the NFL, it means you are the starter!

 

 

GO BILLS!

You make my point entirely. TE's play has nothing to do with JP's.

 

But look at the above, all you do is make excuses for TE. He hasn't done anything yet. Nothing. That combined with a bunch of excuses is not a valid predictor that he's going to be something that he's never been. But you and others here don't seem to be able to understand that and have a tantrum anytime anyone tries to explain it to you.

 

I don't care about JP, I really don't. He's probably leaving after the season anyway, so what's the point. But I do see a lot more upside to his starting than w/ Edwards. And yes, there is a degree of subjectivity there so it is debatable. But based on last year's production and play by the offense, the best thing that can be said in Edwards' defense is that there's no difference. That's the best thing, otherwise you must defer to JP if past performance is indicative of future success.

 

Otherwise I guess I'm sorry that you seem to prefer a QB that looks good in there rather than one that gets more acccomplished. Maybe you should apply for a position with the team, they seem to share your views.

[krazykat]

Regardless of which side of the JP/Trent argument people are on, I think it's fair to say that valid arguments can be made both ways. Good thing is that if Trent is the starter this year, he can simply end the debate with how he plays or doesn't play. No problem Trent, just go out and show us all that the coaches are making the right choice.

Yeah, that's right. It's not as if JP is gonna take us to the moon and back. We're not making the playoffs this year so who really cares.

[BillsVet]

Krazy, you have 72 posts and counting today. That's 3x more than anyone else today. We get that you prefer JP more than Trent. Fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but stop bludgeoning us to death with them.

[thebug]

You make my point entirely. TE's play has nothing to do with JP's.

 

But look at the above, all you do is make excuses for TE. He hasn't done anything yet. Nothing. That combined with a bunch of excuses is not a valid predictor that he's going to be something that he's never been. But you and others here don't seem to be able to understand that and have a tantrum anytime anyone tries to explain it to you.

 

I don't care about JP, I really don't. He's probably leaving after the season anyway, so what's the point. But I do see a lot more upside to his starting than w/ Edwards. And yes, there is a degree of subjectivity there so it is debatable. But based on last year's production and play by the offense, the best thing that can be said in Edwards' defense is that there's no difference. That's the best thing, otherwise you must defer to JP if past performance is indicative of future success.

Otherwise I guess I'm sorry that you seem to prefer a QB that looks good in there rather than one that gets more acccomplished. Maybe you should apply for a position with the team, they seem to share your views.

 

 

Now that's funny, have you ever seen the game of football, really? So you are saying that there was no difference between JP and a rookie, yet JP is the guy for the job? Being a rookie is not an excuse it is a fact. I think it is obvious that TE could have won rookie of the year and would not be impressed. Clearly he should have stepped in and taken this team full of pro bowlers to the super bowl.

[Adam]

OK, maybe we aren't really addressing the problem. It isn't who plays QB or coaches- its leadership. You can't win without leaders in key positions

 

Playerwise, who is a leader? No QB can claim this since Kelly. Bledsoe came close, but after our one good offensive season, Donahoe blew up the offense. No other QB since Kelly has been allowed to become a leader.

 

Evans and Schobel are good players, but I don't see them as leaders. Peters is our best player, but you seldom get a Kent Hull type that can be an OL and a leader. Clements wasn't before he left, but Winfield was either there or on his way, and Donahoe let him go- same for Pat Williams and Ted Washington.

 

I see Jauron as a leader, and thats why I defend him. Players will run through walls for him, which they wouldn't do for Mularkey. Players buy into what he asks them to do- case in point is the turnovers forced against Dallas. Bobby APril may be one as well. Still, if the coaches end up being your only leaders, you end up having to outscheme everyone in order to win games, and that won't get you far. Both Losman and Edwards have showed leadership potential at times- and a command of the huddle. Barring injury, we have to stick with one, and let them make the team theirs. I don't care if Edwards throws 10 picks in the first two games- let him make his mistakes.

 

I think Poz has the potential, but he has to prove himself first.

 

This process may take a few years, but we won't turn the corner and make playoffs until it happens.

[MattM]

1. Excuse

 

2. Excuse

 

3. They changed the offense up on him and clearly wanted Edwards in there as their man. There were already rumblings prior to the season starting. It wasn't a big shock.

 

Still, you laud Edwards implicitly, but still, no one addresses the fact that under Edwards the team produced significantly fewer 1st downs, fewer points/game although not by anything significant, and converted significantly fewer 3rd downs raising questions indeed as to how much Edwards actually contributed to wins with hardly any offensive point production.

 

I mean can I say that it was because of Brad Butler that we won all of our games last year?

 

Regardless, I fail to see how less production means greater contributions. No matter how you slice it, it was worse under Edwards. Except for the "poise" of course.

 

Actually, dude, 1 (TE being a rookie and getting little to no first team work during TC) and 2 (2 of his starts being in hurricane or blizzard conditions in which he stat-wise equaled or bettered Pro Bowl QBs) are both facts, not excuses. Using semantics to twist what are facts shows nothing but the weakness of your argument....

[Dan]

Krazy, you have 72 posts and counting today. That's 3x more than anyone else today. We get that you prefer JP more than Trent. Fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but stop bludgeoning us to death with them.

I would suggest that its not so much he likes one player, coach or team more than any other. He just wants to argue. Hence if you read many of those 72 posts today, you'll see a wide variety of opinions all baseless and stated in a manner to elicit confrontational argumentation. Look no further than this thread... it took 4 pages for him to finally admit, "It's not as if JP is gonna take us to the moon and back. We're not making the playoffs this year so who really cares." However, we still have post after post degrading our starting QB in favor of someone he doesn't even think is good. Trollish indeed.

[PromoTheRobot]

Here's my objective opinion:

 

Edwards performed better than most rookie QB's. So I'm optimistic he will improve this year. He already possesses good field awareness and poise. If everyone steps up their play we are a lock for the playoffs.

 

PTR

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

POISE = Less sacks and less fumbles.

 

J.P. actually regressed his 4th year, and was worse his 2nd year than T.E. was his first.

 

Your statements carry little weight, and are factually incorrect.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losman/profile?id=LOS588329

 

http://www.nfl.com/players/trentedwards/profile?id=EDW720778

 

Precisely.

 

Poise is simply having good pocket awareness.--i.e., having that internal clock.

 

If you constantly get sacked and fumble because you can't feel the pressure, then you're not going to be a good NFL QB.

[krazykat]

Precisely.

 

Poise is simply having good pocket awareness.--i.e., having that internal clock.

 

If you constantly get sacked and fumble because you can't feel the pressure, then you're not going to be a good NFL QB.

I think we all know when we really are honest with ourselves that Edwards' didn't get sacked all that much because he was in a system, which admittedly according to Schonert if you read that article on him, he wasn't thrown to the wolves last year and it was designed first and foremost to keep hiim from getting too much pressure.

 

IMO the team had made up its mind that it didn't want JP in there (Donahoe's guy) and wanted their own, probably because Marv was buddies with Walsh and Walsh said this or that because that's the kind of guy Marv is, that they arranged it so that Losman wouldn't succeed and it would give them the perfect opportunity to put Edwards in, allow him to get his feet wet, prepare himself for this season which is supposed to be his grand coming out.

 

Otherwise how can we explain the fact that the team changed everything around for Losman who came off of a 17TD/9INT season. If they really wanted JP to succeed, or the team to succeed under him, they would have run a similar offense than they did. Instead, they ran one not suited to his strengths and when he failed put in Edwards.

 

I admit, I will be pleasantly surprised if we finish this year under Edwards ranked in the top half for sacks allowed. I'm expecting 30+ sacks again. But you know what, if it's accompanied by 24 TDs/18INTs, so what, it was worth it rather than 10 sacks and no damn ball movement or scoring.

[MattM]

I think we all know when we really are honest with ourselves that Edwards' didn't get sacked all that much because he was in a system, which admittedly according to Schonert if you read that article on him, he wasn't thrown to the wolves last year and it was designed first and foremost to keep hiim from getting too much pressure.

 

IMO the team had made up its mind that it didn't want JP in there (Donahoe's guy) and wanted their own, probably because Marv was buddies with Walsh and Walsh said this or that because that's the kind of guy Marv is, that they arranged it so that Losman wouldn't succeed and it would give them the perfect opportunity to put Edwards in, allow him to get his feet wet, prepare himself for this season which is supposed to be his grand coming out.

 

Otherwise how can we explain the fact that the team changed everything around for Losman who came off of a 17TD/9INT season. If they really wanted JP to succeed, or the team to succeed under him, they would have run a similar offense than they did. Instead, they ran one not suited to his strengths and when he failed put in Edwards.

 

I admit, I will be pleasantly surprised if we finish this year under Edwards ranked in the top half for sacks allowed. I'm expecting 30+ sacks again. But you know what, if it's accompanied by 24 TDs/18INTs, so what, it was worth it rather than 10 sacks and no damn ball movement or scoring.

 

Actually, it was only 26 last year, 11th fewest in the League, and most of those were JP (14, I believe) in less playing time than TE....

[WellDressed]

I think about Trent's play mostly when I'm in the shower.

[NJ_BillsFan]

I believe Edwards is moving in the right direction. I know we are very impatient as fans and want some stability at QB. I believe Edwars showed flashes of greatness last year. The comeback in Washington and the first half against the Giants. I think he will be better this year and take significant strides towards having a very strong 2009 Season.

[keepthefaith]

I believe Edwards is moving in the right direction. I know we are very impatient as fans and want some stability at QB. I believe Edwars showed flashes of greatness last year. The comeback in Washington and the first half against the Giants. I think he will be better this year and take significant strides towards having a very strong 2009 Season.

 

Tis the season of great optimism and anticipation. It would be nice to see that season extend into the fall.