Allow me to ask...

[krazykat]

From what I can tell the going phrase is that "he's poised."

 

As I see it that's all fine and dandy, but how does that manifest itself on the field?

 

I mean the goal is to move the ball and score points, but the Bills were the worst at those two things combined last year easily.

 

So if the choices were having a QB that lacked poise, but could put up yards and points, wouldn't that be better?

 

What does this "poise" get for us on the field? What has it gotten for us on the field?

 

I sincerely do not understand this overemphasis on some extremely soft indicator that doesn't reflect in the team's offensive stats.

 

And please, don't read into this, I am not suggesting that JP is the answer in the least although the team, as a team, has put up more points on average with him under center and has generally been marginally more effective otherwise from an offensive standpoint.

 

It's like someone said that Edwards is poised last year and that all of a sudden "poise" is the final indicator of a QB in this league. You read it in just about every preview about this team meaning that it's clearly driven by the media and yet it is never accompanied by the fact that under Edwards, with all of that poise, and with Lynch in the backfield and a revamped line, the team's offense was the worst that the franchise has ever seen.

 

And on a side note, last year's yardage D ranking was the worst that this franchise has ever seen. Yet Jauron has defenders.

[bills44]

Uh oh.

 

This is not going to go over well. I predict that despite you saying this: "And please, don't read into this, I am not suggesting that JP is the answer in the least although the team, as a team, has put up more points on average with him under center and has generally been marginally more effective otherwise from an offensive standpoint. ", you will be labelled a Losman supporter.

[Whites Bay]

I can't speak for "everyone", and I can't say that my views are entirely "objective", in that I've never had the time, energy, interest or capability to sit down and watch endless tapes on Trent Edwards' performance last year. Given these provisos, however, the primary strength I could discern in Edwards' technique is his quick release. This is particularly true when compared to Losman, who, while not exactly Bledsoesque, did have a tendency to hold the ball too long behind a suspect offensive line while waiting for the double-team on Evans to turn into a triple-team.

 

I can't tell you whether Edwards has a natural instinct to get rid of the ball in a New York Minute, or whether the play called for it, or whether he was running around out there like a bug on crack. The ball DID seem to get out a lot faster. Related to that point, it seemed that he had the presence of mind to throw the ball away (sidelines, back of the end zone) rather than take a sack, or thread a needle that wasn't there.

 

Again, these are not "objective". I'm not an ex-coach or X-and-O geek. I'm stating these as a fan of the game who watches the game through goggles that get increasingly fogged by Molson by the fourth quarter.

[keepthefaith]

From what I can tell the going phrase is that "he's poised."

 

As I see it that's all fine and dandy, but how does that manifest itself on the field?

 

I mean the goal is to move the ball and score points, but the Bills were the worst at those two things combined last year easily.

 

So if the choices were having a QB that lacked poise, but could put up yards and points, wouldn't that be better?

 

What does this "poise" get for us on the field? What has it gotten for us on the field?

 

I sincerely do not understand this overemphasis on some extremely soft indicator that doesn't reflect in the team's offensive stats.

 

And please, don't read into this, I am not suggesting that JP is the answer in the least although the team, as a team, has put up more points on average with him under center and has generally been marginally more effective otherwise from an offensive standpoint.

 

It's like someone said that Edwards is poised last year and that all of a sudden "poise" is the final indicator of a QB in this league. You read it in just about every preview about this team meaning that it's clearly driven by the media and yet it is never accompanied by the fact that under Edwards, with all of that poise, and with Lynch in the backfield and a revamped line, the team's offense was the worst that the franchise has ever seen.

 

And on a side note, last year's yardage D ranking was the worst that this franchise has ever seen. Yet Jauron has defenders.

 

Trent's Strengths that I see:

 

Does make a quick decision in the pocket.

Throws a nice catchable short ball and can place the ball well short (under 15 yards)

makes low risk decisions

Does not appear to get rattled in the pocket

For how little experience he has, he seems to have a good mental grasp of what has to be done

 

Weaknesses I see:

 

Good at getting rid of the ball when rushed but not very good at avoiding the rush. Rush defense knows where he'll be and can key on that.

Tendency to take low risk choices makes it easy for defense to defend longer routes.

Emotionally a bit robotic. Leadership IMO requires some fire from time to time.

Experience

Predictable

Not ready to label him as injury prone, but he has not proved that he can hold up physically long term

[krazykat]

Uh oh.

 

This is not going to go over well. I predict that despite you saying this: "And please, don't read into this, I am not suggesting that JP is the answer in the least although the team, as a team, has put up more points on average with him under center and has generally been marginally more effective otherwise from an offensive standpoint. ", you will be labelled a Losman supporter.

LOL Well, no doubt. But hey, comes with the territory I guess.

 

At least it discredits anyone that would say it.

[krazykat]

I can't speak for "everyone", and I can't say that my views are entirely "objective", in that I've never had the time, energy, interest or capability to sit down and watch endless tapes on Trent Edwards' performance last year. Given these provisos, however, the primary strength I could discern in Edwards' technique is his quick release. This is particularly true when compared to Losman, who, while not exactly Bledsoesque, did have a tendency to hold the ball too long behind a suspect offensive line while waiting for the double-team on Evans to turn into a triple-team.

 

I can't tell you whether Edwards has a natural instinct to get rid of the ball in a New York Minute, or whether the play called for it, or whether he was running around out there like a bug on crack. The ball DID seem to get out a lot faster. Related to that point, it seemed that he had the presence of mind to throw the ball away (sidelines, back of the end zone) rather than take a sack, or thread a needle that wasn't there.

 

Again, these are not "objective". I'm not an ex-coach or X-and-O geek. I'm stating these as a fan of the game who watches the game through goggles that get increasingly fogged by Molson by the fourth quarter.

A quick release is somewhat objective actually. It can be measured. I don't know if it's quick or not, but I guess my follow up question would be the same, how does or did his quick release manifest itself in terms of an offense doing what it's supposed to be doing?

 

Because so far in this thread we've made the given that he's "poised."

Then we've added that he has a quick release.

 

Yet, we still under him were a franchise worst or very close to it, offense last year in terms of both scoring and yards.

[krazykat]

Trent's Strengths that I see:

 

Does make a quick decision in the pocket.

Throws a nice catchable short ball and can place the ball well short (under 15 yards)

makes low risk decisions

Does not appear to get rattled in the pocket

For how little experience he has, he seems to have a good mental grasp of what has to be done

 

Weaknesses I see:

 

Good at getting rid of the ball when rushed but not very good at avoiding the rush. Rush defense knows where he'll be and can key on that.

Tendency to take low risk choices makes it easy for defense to defend longer routes.

Emotionally a bit robotic. Leadership IMO requires some fire from time to time.

Experience

Predictable

Not ready to label him as injury prone, but he has not proved that he can hold up physically long term

 

OK, fine then, but then given those strengths, which are impressive for a rookie, why was the team statistically the worst in the league last year at ball movement, 3rd down conversions, scoring, etc.?

 

And maybe more importantly, why did the team perform better with Losman, who doesn't appear to have even that much in terms of strength associated with him?

 

I mean in the past guys like Flutie got credit for moving the O simply by being on the field in spite of perhaps lack of passing production otherwise, but JP doesn't get that credit, at least not over Edwards, and the offense under Edwards was downright pathetic.

 

Again, as I see it if all those things are truly present, then the offense while perhaps not good would at least not be the worst in the entire league and even worse than a bunch of teams with no talent on O.

[San-O]

From what I can tell the going phrase is that "he's poised."

 

It's like someone said that Edwards is poised last year and that all of a sudden "poise" is the final indicator of a QB in this league. You read it in just about every preview about this team meaning that it's clearly driven by the media and yet it is never accompanied by the fact that under Edwards, with all of that poise, and with Lynch in the backfield and a revamped line, the team's offense was the worst that the franchise has ever seen.

 

And on a side note, last year's yardage D ranking was the worst that this franchise has ever seen. Yet Jauron has defenders.

 

I think it may be more of a comparison of Edwards, with Losman, who was seen as erratic.

 

Every time Losman would drop back to pass, I would freeze, grit my teeth and hope.

 

[JoeF]

Trent had serious reigns on him last year as a Rookie--no audibles, tight to a gameplan without a lot of adaptations in game. He had basically two jobs..primary--keep the O on the field as long as possible so the D wouldn't be exposed; secondary--oh yeah--score some points.

 

JP has talent -- he can throw, run but he couldn't and shouldn't operate in such a scheme over the long term..he just has the talent of a gunslinger and gunslingers need Defenses that can pull them out of the fire when needed.

 

Its interesting because now the Bills have a defense that moves closer to being able to support a gunslinger. The Bills have weapons on offense -- Lynch, Jackson (watch how they use him this year), Evans, Parrish, Hardy, Reed to spread the field and go for the jugular. A gunslinger mentality would possibly work.

 

I think if things start out slow for Trent -- meaning the Bills don't score points on sustained drives and mix in a few big plays here and there--the pressure will build to go back to JP. Clearly playoffs is the expectation and fast starts are almost a prerequisite for the playoffs.

 

As a fan--I hope that Trent lights it up. I want the playoffs more than I want this QB or that QB and its clear the Bills are starting with Trent. I think keepthefaith did a good job of outlining the Trent strengths and weaknesses I saw - but I don't think we saw all of what Trent can do last year. I still vividly recall sitting in the endzone at FedEx field and watching him throw an absolute 35 yard bullet to Reed in the cold, mist and wind to set up the winning FG...this kid can play more than what the Bills have allowed him to display.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Are there any stats that support the idea that Trent elevated the play of his offensive teammates at Stanford?

[davefan66]

Trent showed an ability to not melt down in the pocket. For a rookie he showed remarkable poise. Mind you, if he were a 5 year vet, I would expect more.

He showed he was able to read his receivers and check down to the outlet for a few yards, instead of a sack. Seems to have an adequately strong arm, accurate, and places the ball in the right spot for the receiver to make the play.

 

Not to get into Losman vs Trent, but.....we know what we have with JP, didn't work, now it's time to line up with Trent. May not be a pro-bowl QB, but he showed the poise and leadership that JP has not shown.

[krazykat]

I think it may be more of a comparison of Edwards, with Losman, who was seen as erratic.

 

Every time Losman would drop back to pass, I would freeze, grit my teeth and hope.

 

Again, that's all fine and good, but thus far the team on average has scored more points with Losman under center both last year and in '06.

 

So are we in the mode of as long as our QB doesn't look scared or concerned, we're happy even if the O sucks?

[keepthefaith]

OK, fine then, but then given those strengths, which are impressive for a rookie, why was the team statistically the worst in the league last year at ball movement, 3rd down conversions, scoring, etc.?

 

And maybe more importantly, why did the team perform better with Losman, who doesn't appear to have even that much in terms of strength associated with him?

 

I mean in the past guys like Flutie got credit for moving the O simply by being on the field in spite of perhaps lack of passing production otherwise, but JP doesn't get that credit, at least not over Edwards, and the offense under Edwards was downright pathetic.

 

Again, as I see it if all those things are truly present, then the offense while perhaps not good would at least not be the worst in the entire league and even worse than a bunch of teams with no talent on O.

 

FWIW I think JP is the better QB for the right coach. I don't think he is a Jauron type of player and I still think the front office made the call to insert Trent.

[krazykat]

Trent had serious reigns on him last year as a Rookie--no audibles, tight to a gameplan without a lot of adaptations in game. He had basically two jobs..primary--keep the O on the field as long as possible so the D wouldn't be exposed; secondary--oh yeah--score some points.

 

JP has talent -- he can throw, run but he couldn't and shouldn't operate in such a scheme over the long term..he just has the talent of a gunslinger and gunslingers need Defenses that can pull them out of the fire when needed.

 

Its interesting because now the Bills have a defense that moves closer to being able to support a gunslinger. The Bills have weapons on offense -- Lynch, Jackson (watch how they use him this year), Evans, Parrish, Hardy, Reed to spread the field and go for the jugular. A gunslinger mentality would possibly work.

 

I think if things start out slow for Trent -- meaning the Bills don't score points on sustained drives and mix in a few big plays here and there--the pressure will build to go back to JP. Clearly playoffs is the expectation and fast starts are almost a prerequisite for the playoffs.

 

As a fan--I hope that Trent lights it up. I want the playoffs more than I want this QB or that QB and its clear the Bills are starting with Trent. I think keepthefaith did a good job of outlining the Trent strengths and weaknesses I saw - but I don't think we saw all of what Trent can do last year. I still vividly recall sitting in the endzone at FedEx field and watching him throw an absolute 35 yard bullet to Reed in the cold, mist and wind to set up the winning FG...this kid can play more than what the Bills have allowed him to display.

Was the game plan different for JP than it was for Edwards last year?

 

JP also played the few tough Ds that we faced too except for the Cowboys.

 

Still, you mention a lot of what you hope for and wish, but what was the solid part of Edwards play? Saying that he has poise only goes so far, as far as the words go and no more. You didn't answer the question or help me understand why we should expect something from Edwards other than by saying that since he didn't do things last year we can expect him to do them this year.

 

And what about all those open receivers we saw him miss? Was it the game plan that disallowed those, or is that possibly a flag going forward?

 

And as far as a defense getting closer to supporting a gunslinger, what do you mean by that specifically? IMO if a defense is that good then the O shouldn't need a gunslinger. It should be able to run ball control.

[krazykat]

Trent showed an ability to not melt down in the pocket. For a rookie he showed remarkable poise. Mind you, if he were a 5 year vet, I would expect more.

He showed he was able to read his receivers and check down to the outlet for a few yards, instead of a sack. Seems to have an adequately strong arm, accurate, and places the ball in the right spot for the receiver to make the play.

 

Not to get into Losman vs Trent, but.....we know what we have with JP, didn't work, now it's time to line up with Trent. May not be a pro-bowl QB, but he showed the poise and leadership that JP has not shown.

OK, so a completion for 3 on a 3rd-and-6 avoids the sack, but so what, then you punt. Granted, better than a sack, but still not what the O is supposed to do, or is it.

 

As far as placing the ball in the right spot for the receiver to make the play or reading his recceivers, did you miss all the times that he hit a man for short because he missed an entirely open receiver elsewhere that could have resulted in a lot more yards?

 

Regardless, OK, he played with poise uncommon for rookies. Shouldn't the offense then not have been the worst in the league? I mean was Culpepper, Russell, McCown better on a better O in Oakland? Why did they put up more in terms of offensive production with Fargas, Curry, Porter and their pathetic OL? How Leo Clemen or Kellen Clemens in NY and Miami?

[krazykat]

Doesn't sound like there are a whole lot of good answers.

 

Could it just be that someone saying that Edwards is poised is meaningless?

[San-O]

Again, that's all fine and good, but thus far the team on average has scored more points with Losman under center both last year and in '06.

 

So are we in the mode of as long as our QB doesn't look scared or concerned, we're happy even if the O sucks?

 

 

Again, I think the real issue is the coaching staff saw J.P. for a full season, were underimpressed, drafted a 3rd rounder

who stepped in when J.P. went down, and did just enough (as a rookie) to warrent the starting job.

 

Regarding poise, there is a "badness" indicator I made up in the past, and J.P.'s badness value is almost twice as high

as that of Trents.

 

A high value is bad.

[Guest dog14787]

Doesn't sound like there are a whole lot of good answers.

 

Could it just be that someone saying that Edwards is poised is meaningless?

 

Well maybe you should watch other rookie QB's who have very little poise.( most )

 

They make bad decisions, throw interceptions, and do very little to gain the confidence of their teamates.

 

Is poise everthing? of course its not, but its generaly associated with someone who is very confident of their abilities and in turn, the confidence rubs off on their teamates.

 

Its part of being a good leader, Tom Brady is a great example.

[Whites Bay]

A quick release is somewhat objective actually. It can be measured. I don't know if it's quick or not, but I guess my follow up question would be the same, how does or did his quick release manifest itself in terms of an offense doing what it's supposed to be doing?

 

Because so far in this thread we've made the given that he's "poised."

Then we've added that he has a quick release.

 

Yet, we still under him were a franchise worst or very close to it, offense last year in terms of both scoring and yards.

 

Neither of us can state with certainty what the offense was supposed to be doing at any given point. We aren't on the sidelines, and last year's play calling carried with it an element of randomity that bordered on F'ed-uppedness. Not all of it related to the play of the quarterback, whether it be J.P. Losman or Trent Edwards.

 

In general, a quick release assists an offense by (a) keeping a quarterback's bones in one piece, and (b) wearing down pass-rushing defensive ends. Dan Marino, dick that he is, was notorious for frustrating all DEs - including Bruce Smith.

 

How will it help Edwards? If the line keeps pass-blocking as well as it did last year, and if he's actually allowed to audible, you might see (a) a higher completion percentage as the primary receiver on any given set could now change at the line, and (b) a greater tendency for the team to actually be able to hold on to a lead at the end of the game by dint of the fact that the opposing pass rush might be lacking the "high gear" in the fourth quarter.

 

Time will tell. Maybe he'll suck.

[MarkAF43]

Well maybe you should watch other rookie QB's who have very little poise.( most )

 

They make bad decisions, throw interceptions, and do very little to gain the confidence of their teamates.

 

Is poise everthing? of course its not, but its generaly associated with someone who is very confident of their abilities and in turn, the confidence rubs off on their teamates.

 

Its part of being a good leader, Tom Brady is a great example.

 

 

hmmmm so you are saying Trent did none of that last year as a rookie?

cause I can assure you, there are plenty of Bills fans that would disagree

again, he didn't play horrible but the bolded part is what you are blanketing rookie QB's but trying to give TE a pass, and last year he did do those same things you list