Typical TBD Guy Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Well, that's kind of important, wouldn't you think? People have been flocking out of cities to the suburbs for quite some time, now, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't count toward those city's fan bases. Salt Lake City's population is only about 181,000, but if you include the suburbs it's about 1.2 million. If King wants to make a valid argument, I'd like to see him include suburban numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unite...ropolitan_areas #22. Pittsburgh #25 Cleveland #46 Buffalo Also note that Rochester is at #50 and that including the Toronto metro area would put us comfortably in the top 10.
scribo Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Where is that jagoff THE DEAN when you need his lameness to crunch & make some sense out of these #'s ? What type of "sense" needs to be made out of these numbers? They clearly show the area's residents are packing up and heading out, wherever "out" may be. This is no secret, and I am not exactly sure why people have a great deal of heartburn with Peter King's comments. I love WNY and would love to move back, etc., etc., but everyone who is wiling to open their eyes knows the rest of the story.
sds7973 Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 I think there was more interesting points about this article. 1) Him mentioning that Cleveland, Buffalo and Pittsburg as declining cities and the future may be in doubt for these cities. I think this all depends which way the current owners and the commish want to do to the league. DO they want a team in LA? DO they want a team in Toronto? DO they want a team in London or Mexico City? The current and future owners have the power. The only thing the fans can do is not by the NFL branded crap and stop watching football. Two things I do not in the future. 2) He talks about how Giants fans are moaning about the licensing fees they add to the season tickets. For any of you who don't know about this policy. (Dallas already does it) You buy the rights to purchase your season tickets for a certain period of time. Dallas and NY are doing this to pay for their brand new stadiums. So you have your up front seat license fee for x amount of years and then you buy your season tickets every year. All I can say is yikes, and I thank heaven that my seat at the Ralph was just shy under $500. Folks, we are on the verge of being out priced by this league. I can't imagine what 10 years from now what this league will look like. So I for one will live up these last few years at the Ralph before the a. leave for what ever megaopolis or b. charge so much for a seat that I can't afford. Wow, I hate Mondays......
THE GASH STATION Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 What type of "sense" needs to be made out of these numbers? They clearly show the area's residents are packing up and heading out, wherever "out" may be. This is no secret, and I am not exactly sure why people have a great deal of heartburn with Peter King's comments. I love WNY and would love to move back, etc., etc., but everyone who is wiling to open their eyes knows the rest of the story. Sir, Obviously you missed the point of my rhetorical question.
SectionC3 Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 The facts are the facts and population in Western NY is in decline. However it is not fair to throw those number around. Oklahoma City's population is higher but it also covers area the size of Erie County, I'm guessing it is the same with the other western/mid western cities. I remember reading somewhere, possibly in a Bills article of about the game in TO that the area from Toronto to Rochester is a top five most populated region in the Northeast. I think I posted this somewhere on the board before, but . . . Back in the day (approx. 1990-ish), one of the local media outlets did a study that found that Buffalo/Niagara would be a top-10 market if the Golden Horseshoe was included in market population totals. Canadian audiences aren't "rated," so all of the folks in Fort Erie, Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Hamilton, etc. aren't included in the measure of Buffalo's market size. Combine the 1 million or so people in Erie and Niagara Counties with the roughly 1 million or so people in Monroe and Ontario Counties and those in the Horseshoe on this side of Hamilton and you're approaching a fairly substantial population total. The folks on the Canadian side can probably tweak the numbers, but my understanding is that Hamilton has a population of 600,000+, Niagara Falls is around 100,000, and St. Catharines is in the neighborhood of 100,000. Once TO is added to the mix, the Buffalo/Niagara market becomes, even 15 years after the study I mentioned, huge - but not necessarily for American TV purposes.
Zona Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Let's real people. None of this matters. Mesa is a suburb of phoenix. As is Glendale, home of the cardinals. Foxboro is only 19 square miles and has like 17000 people accordining to Wiki. None of this matters, imo. Whether or not the Bills leave is up to Ralph, the NFL, and what happens when he passes...
Lurker Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 but everyone who is wiling to open their eyes knows the rest of the story. You mean the one about the Bills being in a top-10 market if you include Rochester and Southern Ontario in their marketing/fan base region?
Big Turk Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 The facts are the facts and population in Western NY is in decline. However it is not fair to throw those number around. Oklahoma City's population is higher but it also covers area the size of Erie County, I'm guessing it is the same with the other western/mid western cities. Yeah, St. Louis has a metro area the size of Connecticut, so midwestern cities have lots of sprawl around them... You could drive 45 minutes in St Louis and still be in a suburb of St Louis, but if you drive 45 minutes from Buffalo you are in the middle of nowhere...
socalfan Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 Yeah, St. Louis has a metro area the size of Connecticut, so midwestern cities have lots of sprawl around them... You could drive 45 minutes in St Louis and still be in a suburb of St Louis, but if you drive 45 minutes from Buffalo you are in the middle of nowhere... In the middle of nowhere? Odd, People in California think of NY as being wall to wall houses. Somewhat like were I live. In fact, there are no major cities, at least any that most of you would have heard of. But there are 34 cities of modest size. The county's population is about 3.1 million. The most famous of the 5 shopping malls in the county does over 1 billion is taxable sales....probably more than all of Erie County. Taxable sales for the county is about 41 billlion. But this county didn't support an NFL franchise when it was here......and it moved back to Oakland.
Lurker Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 but if you drive 45 minutes from Buffalo you are in the middle of nowhere the suburbs of Rochester and Toronto... Fixed.
stuckincincy Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ.../13/mmqb/1.html Mostly about the Favre drams, but one little tidbit I found interesting (and sad) Older, large cities tend to have a goodly percentage of folks that rely on this or that government program. They vote into office, the politicians who will extract more money and services for them. So property, sales, wage taxes go up. So others will leave the cities, and also the counties they are in. My property tax rate would easily be cut in half if I moved out of Hamilton County OH. When I lived in Western Pennsylvania, a move into Pittsburgh (rental or purchase) would have raised my municipal wage tax from 1% to 4%. I'm not prepared to argue about the ethics or morality of any of this - it's just the way it is.
zonabb Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unite...ropolitan_areas #22. Pittsburgh #25 Cleveland #46 Buffalo Also note that Rochester is at #50 and that including the Toronto metro area would put us comfortably in the top 10. First off, Wiki has never been or will be a valid data source or citation, EVER. Second, the reality is and some have mentioned it and I've mentioned it many times on this board on this same topic is that the Buffalo-Niagara MSA is the critical number. However, that number only includes those two counties and not the entire region and populations of adjacent counties (not many people but enough to matter). The reason they are not counted is due to the economic connection a central city has to suburbs and rural areas and those counties don't have a significant impact on the MSA. Anyway, I looked it up and basically, the entire area of Atlanta's MSA is roughly as big as the Rochester and Buffalo MSAs, which when you add those up, if I recall correctly, is well over 2 million people within about 1.5 hour drive of the stadium, same as most large metros. So despite population loss, people are here and in a very significant amount, I believe to support this team. In fact, based on scalping and broker sales of tickets at inflated prices, I would bet the Bills could do about a 20% across the board increase in ticket prices and still sell what they're selling, which really takes thta markup from the brokers and puts it where it belongs, in the Bills pockets and thereby strengthening the team. And for the Toronto-Buffalo-Rochester region, I believe it's not one of the largest 5 region in the Northeast but a ranking area of the world economically and possibily politically. Richard Florida, a professor in Toronto, has lectured and written about it. Sorry for not having the numbers handy, I have an entire spreadhseet at home with all the metros of each team and in the info from population size to density to square miles of their MSA, etc.
obie_wan Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 First off, Wiki has never been or will be a valid data source or citation, EVER. Second, the reality is and some have mentioned it and I've mentioned it many times on this board on this same topic is that the Buffalo-Niagara MSA is the critical number. However, that number only includes those two counties and not the entire region and populations of adjacent counties (not many people but enough to matter). The reason they are not counted is due to the economic connection a central city has to suburbs and rural areas and those counties don't have a significant impact on the MSA. Anyway, I looked it up and basically, the entire area of Atlanta's MSA is roughly as big as the Rochester and Buffalo MSAs, which when you add those up, if I recall correctly, is well over 2 million people within about 1.5 hour drive of the stadium, same as most large metros. So despite population loss, people are here and in a very significant amount, I believe to support this team. In fact, based on scalping and broker sales of tickets at inflated prices, I would bet the Bills could do about a 20% across the board increase in ticket prices and still sell what they're selling, which really takes thta markup from the brokers and puts it where it belongs, in the Bills pockets and thereby strengthening the team. And for the Toronto-Buffalo-Rochester region, I believe it's not one of the largest 5 region in the Northeast but a ranking area of the world economically and possibily politically. Richard Florida, a professor in Toronto, has lectured and written about it. Sorry for not having the numbers handy, I have an entire spreadhseet at home with all the metros of each team and in the info from population size to density to square miles of their MSA, etc. all of these population gyrations are great. too bad none of them focus on the number of corporate HQs located in the Erie / Niagara County region. The number is exceedingly small. Roch can add Xa few fortune 500 companies to the mix. The real source of revenue streams for the Bills is in Toronto. Unless they effectively tap corporate dollars in Toronto, the team will not be able to compete with other more lucrative locations.
Deep Voice Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 No biggy I have a job and I pay my taxes The economy doesn't hurt me - yet As long as we have the Bills, Sabres, wings, and mighty taco - i'll love Buffalo forever. Yea
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