Judge rules against Seneca Nation on Buffalo casino

[Chef Jim]

Trout Pro?

[ricojes]

Blame the Senecas for the blight. They took a "gamble" and started construction, knowing full well that they could lose this suit. They have to stop construction immediately. What they will do with the property is anyone's guess.

There will be appeals, this isn't over yet. But it's not looking good due to the wording of the Seneca Nation Settlement Act of 1990:

 

"Congress gave the act the short title, ‘Seneca Nation Settlement Act of 1990,’ ” Skretny said. “Congress did not include the term ‘claim,’ much less ‘land claim’ in the [act’s] long or short titles.”

 

In other words, Skretny said, it was not a land claim act, one of the few exceptions to the law that allows Indian casinos to be opened off reservations.

[plenzmd1]

Thanks for the location clarification.

 

 

I wish they had OTB here like, NYS, or Dial-A-Bet like PA. The worse you can do betting on the ponies is what?...a one-in-12 shot at getting your money back?

Cinci, two things

 

1) a one-in-12 shot at getting your money backEy yi yi, how many broken down horse players have uttered those words, some even go by plenzmd1.

 

2) If ya want to bet the ponies, try either TVG (http://www.tvg.com)or youbet. I know Ohio residents residents can bet on TVG, not so sure bout Youbet. But let me warn you, easy access to betting not neccasarily a good thing for a man who say"what is the worst that can happen" LOL.

 

I actually have a TVG account, make a $1 exacta box bet every now and then, but when I really want to play the ponies i go to OTB.

[JoeFerguson]

And for those of you who claim this would make Buffalo so much better, have you been to the Falls lately?

 

This is where my brain goes into Catch-22 mode. I grew up in Amherst, moved around a bit as a kid, and wound up in Buffalo again for college in 1998. I am still here now. When you grow up in Buffalo and you have seen the Niagara Falls (the actual waterfall) from both sides of the border about 8 million times it doesn't really excite you anymore. Before the casinos were built (American and Canadian), I don't really remember getting too excited about any other attractions in the NF area. I'm not a tourist so I'm not going to get amped about a wax museum. The first Canadian casino was built right around the time I moved back to Buffalo, and I remember actually being EXCITED about going to the casino when I turned 19. I would say that in the past 10 years I've made 40 trips to Niagara Falls, and I'd say about 35 trips I made a stop at one of the casinos. I'm not a tourist, so I have no reason to get excited about going to Niagara Falls (especially if it hasn't changed since the last time I was there).

 

But hey, did you hear they just built a new hotel attached to the Seneca Casino? I hear that buffet isn't half bad. I hear they serve free drinks. I hear they have live music playing on weekend nights. It's SOMETHING TO DO. I most likely would not make as many trips to Niagara Falls (American side) if there wasn't a casino. I do not waste my life savings when I go. If this casino ends up being built in downtown Buffalo then it will be SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, SOMETHING TO STIMULATE ME. I realize it's not a silver bullet solution to solve the economic blight. I realize that a casino alone will not attract tourists to an area, but I'm sure it can't hurt. When is the last time you were going on a vacation and you said, "Oh, I can't go to XXX because they have a casino there. I am SO MORALLY OPPOSED TO THEM."?

 

Opponents of casinos frequently say that they attract the "wrong type of people". I am assuming by "wrong type of people" they mean degenerate gamblers. I would wager that most degenerate gamblers would be degenerate something-elses if it weren't for the casino so easily at their disposal. Those people would be blowing their money on lotto tickets, OTB, etc. There will always be someone who can't control their vices and they won't appear or reappear with the existence or non-existence of a casino. Before the casinos opened you saw the same people at Wal-Mart, etc.

 

So in conclusion, what's the BIG DEAL? I don't think the casino will make Buffalo THAT much better, but it certainly won't make it worse.

[stuckincincy]

Cinci, two things

 

1) a one-in-12 shot at getting your money backEy yi yi, how many broken down horse players have uttered those words, some even go by plenzmd1.

 

What are the odds of at least getting yer dough back in any game in any State's plethora of their games? Substantially less.

 

I've read often that at a gambling casino, the best odds you get is 3 or 4% with blackjack.

 

Gambling is what it is...a few savants, a few crafty souls that beat their odds - but the whole idea of a gambling enterprise is to peel the maximum number of bucks off of the vast majority.

[yall]

This is where my brain goes into Catch-22 mode. I grew up in Amherst, moved around a bit as a kid, and wound up in Buffalo again for college in 1998. I am still here now. When you grow up in Buffalo and you have seen the Niagara Falls (the actual waterfall) from both sides of the border about 8 million times it doesn't really excite you anymore. Before the casinos were built (American and Canadian), I don't really remember getting too excited about any other attractions in the NF area. I'm not a tourist so I'm not going to get amped about a wax museum. The first Canadian casino was built right around the time I moved back to Buffalo, and I remember actually being EXCITED about going to the casino when I turned 19. I would say that in the past 10 years I've made 40 trips to Niagara Falls, and I'd say about 35 trips I made a stop at one of the casinos. I'm not a tourist, so I have no reason to get excited about going to Niagara Falls (especially if it hasn't changed since the last time I was there).

 

But hey, did you hear they just built a new hotel attached to the Seneca Casino? I hear that buffet isn't half bad. I hear they serve free drinks. I hear they have live music playing on weekend nights. It's SOMETHING TO DO. I most likely would not make as many trips to Niagara Falls (American side) if there wasn't a casino. I do not waste my life savings when I go. If this casino ends up being built in downtown Buffalo then it will be SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, SOMETHING TO STIMULATE ME. I realize it's not a silver bullet solution to solve the economic blight. I realize that a casino alone will not attract tourists to an area, but I'm sure it can't hurt. When is the last time you were going on a vacation and you said, "Oh, I can't go to XXX because they have a casino there. I am SO MORALLY OPPOSED TO THEM."?

 

Opponents of casinos frequently say that they attract the "wrong type of people". I am assuming by "wrong type of people" they mean degenerate gamblers. I would wager that most degenerate gamblers would be degenerate something-elses if it weren't for the casino so easily at their disposal. Those people would be blowing their money on lotto tickets, OTB, etc. There will always be someone who can't control their vices and they won't appear or reappear with the existence or non-existence of a casino. Before the casinos opened you saw the same people at Wal-Mart, etc.

 

So in conclusion, what's the BIG DEAL? I don't think the casino will make Buffalo THAT much better, but it certainly won't make it worse.

 

I'm responding specifically to the two items that I bolded in the quote.

 

First, all of those things you just mentioned basically mean nothing to the community as a whole. The drinks, beds, buffet, etc. are all part of the casino. The bars and restaurants around the casino? They aren't doing so well. The bed tax that the town/city/county might normally see from any other hotel isn't collected on comped rooms (which account for about half of all the people staying at the casino).

 

Food tax? Taxes on clothes or smokes? Nope. The casino has all of the competitive advantages and leaves business owners who are regular, tax paying NYS/American citizens in the dust.

 

And when we talk about jobs, lets not forget that the highest positions in the casino are unavailable to non-natives. Ask any employee of an Indian casino and they will tell you racism and favoritism run rampant and unchecked.

 

I don't have a problem with casino gambling. I do have a problem with the fact that we allow a sovereign nation to engage in a business that the rest of our citizenry is forbidden from reaping the benefits of.

 

As to the second bolded part, my point wasn't to say the Falls were any worse, but you can't say they are any better.

[buckeyemike]

What are the odds of at least getting yer dough back in any game in any State's plethora of their games? Substantially less.

 

I've read often that at a gambling casino, the best odds you get is 3 or 4% with blackjack.

 

Gambling is what it is...a few savants, a few crafty souls that beat their odds - but the whole idea of a gambling enterprise is to peel the maximum number of bucks off of the vast majority.

 

Agree wholeheartedly with your last statement.

 

I've only been in a casino once...it was on an Indian reservation outside of Green Bay, Wisconsin about 10 years ago. And considering it was one of those one-stop style gas and go type places with slot machines, you probably can't even call it a casino.

 

I choose not to gamble, but if anyone else wants to, I'm not gonna be a hypermoralist and try to stop them.

[The Senator]

They should have just stuck with the Cheektowaga site.

Except that the City of Buffalo sued to force the Senecas to build w/in the city limits! Wonder why nothing ever gets done in the BuffTown?

 

Fifteen years and counting, and not a shovel of earth has been turned to build the new Peace Bridge. Expect Buffalo to remain an armpit as long as the NIMBY and BANANA idiots keep opposing every single project and the self-appointed morality gestapo, believing they have a monopoly on virtue, keep trying to dictate how everyone else should think and act. I truly wish they would just shut up and go away - or, better yet, drop dead.

 

That parcel of land that the Senecas are developing was nothing but urban blight, a couple of truck repair shops, and an abandoned mill/grain elevator, and it would have remained that way for the next 100 years had the Senecas not committed to building something significant and attractive in an area no one else would have ever touched. The casino would have anchored the Cobblestone district, and been an added attraction for those visiting the new Erie Canal Harbor site, HSBC arena, and the eventual Bass Pro and surrounding shops and restaurants. Eventually, it would have fueled development that would have filled in the waterfront from downtown all the way to the planned Queen City Landing project at the old Freezer Queen site. The positive impact of this project on the City of Buffalo would have been far greater than the Falls casino/hotel project due to the private development that is also beginning to take hold in that part of downtown Buffalo.

 

 

I expect, in the end, the Senecas will prevail - either thru appeal, or new legislation. If not, the Niagara Falls casino falls under the same ruling, and could also be forced to shut down. The sad thing is that these nimrods have succeeded in delaying another project.

 

County Executive urges Senecas to appeal

[ricojes]

Maybe just let it sit, vacant, and allow the city to reclaim for back taxes owed in a few years.

If the appeal holds and I were the Seneca's, I would put in gas pumps and smoke shops. And maybe a strip club, just to pi$$ just about everyone off... But I still think they'll get this overturned somehow. I remember when Pataki tried to collect tax on cigarette's and gas from the Seneca's and they shut down the throughway by lighting tires on fire. I was commuting then and they were selling "No Pataxi" shirts on the reservation. They will do whatever it takes to get their way...

[taterhill]

If the appeal holds and I were the Seneca's, I would put in gas pumps and smoke shops. And maybe a strip club, just to pi$$ just about everyone off... But I still think they'll get this overturned somehow. I remember when Pataki tried to collect tax on cigarette's and gas from the Seneca's and they shut down the throughway by lighting tires on fire. I was commuting then and they were selling "No Pataxi" shirts on the reservation. They will do whatever it takes to get their way...

the only problem is that the city and county both WANT this to happen....

[Fan in San Diego]

Cinci, two things

 

1) a one-in-12 shot at getting your money backEy yi yi, how many broken down horse players have uttered those words, some even go by plenzmd1.

 

2) If ya want to bet the ponies, try either TVG (http://www.tvg.com)or youbet. I know Ohio residents residents can bet on TVG, not so sure bout Youbet. But let me warn you, easy access to betting not neccasarily a good thing for a man who say"what is the worst that can happen" LOL.

 

I actually have a TVG account, make a $1 exacta box bet every now and then, but when I really want to play the ponies i go to OTB.

 

Don't use Youbet for anything. They are a thieving organization built upon lies and theft.

[ricojes]

the only problem is that the city and county both WANT this to happen....

I know. I know. Just hoping for a strip club and cheaper gas closer to me....

[stuckincincy]

If the appeal holds and I were the Seneca's, I would put in gas pumps and smoke shops. And maybe a strip club, just to pi$$ just about everyone off... But I still think they'll get this overturned somehow. I remember when Pataki tried to collect tax on cigarette's and gas from the Seneca's and they shut down the throughway by lighting tires on fire. I was commuting then and they were selling "No Pataxi" shirts on the reservation. They will do whatever it takes to get their way...

 

Yep - a criminal bunch no doubt.

[taterhill]

I know. I know. Just hoping for a strip club and cheaper gas closer to me....

[PromoTheRobot]

I used to support the idea of a casino in Buffalo...when there was only a handful of places to gamble. Then Buffalo could have become a destination. These days it seems like every rest stop has a casino, so Buffalo having one is no big deal. No one would travel to Buffalo to gamble when there are dozens of other places you can go. So that means the clientele you're likely to get are local people who shouldn't be gambling. Desperate people pissing away the social security checks. All you have to do is go to Fort Erie slots or Turning Stone or any casino and look at the people slinking out, staring at the ground because they were so sure that machine was going to pay off eventually. It's sad, and it's no magic bullet for any community.

 

PTR

[plenzmd1]

I used to support the idea of a casino in Buffalo...when there was only a handful of places to gamble. Then Buffalo could have become a destination. These days it seems like every rest stop has a casino, so Buffalo having one is no big deal. No one would travel to Buffalo to gamble when there are dozens of other places you can go. So that means the clientele you're likely to get are local people who shouldn't be gambling. Desperate people pissing away the social security checks. All you have to do is go to Fort Erie slots or Turning Stone or any casino and look at the people slinking out, staring at the ground because they were so sure that machine was going to pay off eventually. It's sad, and it's no magic bullet for any community.

 

PTR

As you may have noticed, I am a gambling fool, but I agree with ya here Promo. I just do not see anybody going to Buffalo strictly to gamble. Residents yes, tourists no.

 

That being said, I have no problems with people being given the chance to gamble in a private casino, as opposed to having to live with ridicoulous odds on the state run lottery. You want to wipe out the gambling that does the absolute most harm in this country, wipe out the lotteries.

 

Don't use Youbet for anything. They are a thieving organization built upon lies and theft.

 

What is that all about? I am going to google now, but any info appreciated.

[plenzmd1]

In honor of this thread, I have just placed a massive wager on the #5 Horse in the first race at Buffalo Raceway, Casino Road, to win and place at 15-1 odds (with 4 minutes to post) Course my massive wager was all of $4, but sometimes there is an omen eh? Doing my best to keep my gambling dollars going to WNY lol

 

[edit]He lost, so much for omens!!

[The Senator]

Link - Seneca Nation casino in Buffalo will stay open, and construction will continue

[stuckincincy]

In honor of this thread, I have just placed a massive wager on the #5 Horse in the first race at Buffalo Raceway, Casino Road, to win and place at 15-1 odds (with 4 minutes to post) Course my massive wager was all of $4, but sometimes there is an omen eh? Doing my best to keep my gambling dollars going to WNY lol

 

[edit]He lost, so much for omens!!

Never bet a horse at a trotter track. Bet the favorite jockey that year!

[gmac17]

But hey, did you hear they just built a new hotel attached to the Seneca Casino? I hear that buffet isn't half bad. I hear they serve free drinks. I hear they have live music playing on weekend nights. It's SOMETHING TO DO. I most likely would not make as many trips to Niagara Falls (American side) if there wasn't a casino. I do not waste my life savings when I go. If this casino ends up being built in downtown Buffalo then it will be SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, SOMETHING TO STIMULATE ME. I realize it's not a silver bullet solution to solve the economic blight. I realize that a casino alone will not attract tourists to an area, but I'm sure it can't hurt. When is the last time you were going on a vacation and you said, "Oh, I can't go to XXX because they have a casino there. I am SO MORALLY OPPOSED TO THEM."?

 

great take on this. I agree. It will certainly not save the city, but neither will bass pro. neither will a stadium. Nothing will alone. But give me 4 or 5 other "things to do" in Buffalo - especially within walking distance of each other and suddenly the idea of meeting friends in Buffalo for a weekend becomes a lot more palatable.