A win for the good guys

[erynthered]

Yup. Sounds like a man just waiting and wanting to kill someone. God. Some of you people are delusional.

 

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/5866865.html

 

"I would never advocate anyone doing what I did," Horn said from his attorney's west Houston home. "We are not geared for that."

 

 

 

"I know what a hero is, and that's not me," he said. "I'm a human being that was in a situation that I'd never been in before, and I didn't want to die."

 

 

 

As he was going downstairs, Horn said the fear and adrenaline rush was intense.

 

"I'm thinking if they go out the front door, I can't see them at all," he said. His plan was to look out the front door window to get a better view of his neighbor's house. Seeing nothing, he ventured outside.

 

He said he took one step off his front porch and saw nothing. "I felt great. I was so relieved that I didn't see anything. I thought, 'It's over with.' "

 

Then he saw the men come around the corner and head into his front yard. Horn had his cell phone in his front shirt pocket while he handled the shotgun.

 

 

It went from 'I'm glad it's all over' to instant fear," he said.

 

He shouted the words he now regrets: "Move, you're dead." The men — about 10 feet and 13 feet from him — stopped immediately. They looked at one another and said nothing.

 

"There was no fear in their eyes," Horn said.

 

One of the men, believed to be Torres, started to charge him, Horn said. He fired.

 

"There was no time to aim," Horn said. "To this day, I still don't know where I shot."

 

Horn said he turned slightly to the right and fired toward the second man, Ortiz, who ran at a fast pace back in the direction of his neighbor's house. Torres remained in his yard and was walking back toward Horn. He fired a third shot.

 

Horn didn't think his shots struck either man.

 

"I went inside because the guy (Ortiz) disappeared," he said. "I thought he was behind the house. ... I was desperate for the police to get there."

 

A police car screeched to a halt in front of his house. An officer drew his gun and ordered him "on the ground."

 

Horn, who still had his cell phone to his ear, dropped face-first and was handcuffed.

 

He was eventually allowed to sit up and saw one of the men across the street, lying prone. "I thought I scared him enough to fall to the ground."

 

It wasn't until he overheard one officer tell another that "there were two burglars and this man just killed them" that he realized both men were dead.

 

The moment was surreal.

 

"It was like nothing I've ever felt," Horn said. "It was like it wasn't really happening. Just numb."

[SilverNRed]

Yup. Sounds like a man just waiting and wanting to kill someone. God. Some of you people are delusional.

 

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/5866865.html

What? But I thought Horn was just a racist, cold-blooded killer who "couldn't wait" to gun down some illegals. And that the only reason he got away with it was that all the rednecks in Texas were equally excited about killing colored people. You mean to tell me there's more to it??

 

[D_House]

Excerpt from transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:

 

Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.

Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?

Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.

Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.

Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.

Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.

Horn: I’m doing this.

Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.

Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.

Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.

Horn: You want to make a bet?

Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.

Horn: They’re getting away!

Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?

Horn: [curses]

Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.

Horn: They got a bag of loot.

Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?

Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.

Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.

Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.

Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.

Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!

[sound of shots being fired]

[BigAL]

Excerpt from transcript of Joe Horn's 911 call:

 

Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.

Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?

Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.

Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.

Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.

Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.

Horn: I’m doing this.

Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.

Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.

Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.

Horn: You want to make a bet?

Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.

Horn: They’re getting away!

Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?

Horn: [curses]

Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.

Horn: They got a bag of loot.

Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?

Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.

Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.

Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.

Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.

Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!

[sound of shots being fired]

Sounds like a guy itching for a confrontation to me. Anything he's saying now is his ass trying to keep out of jail for murder. Guess it worked.

[Buftex]

If your means of survival is breaking and entering into people's homes, then you're a parasite. Good luck finding comfort in the thought that the people whose homes are being violated might not be "honest." What would you say is dishonest about them? That they were lucky enough not to be home when the criminals broke in?

 

We do know with 100% certainty that Joe Horn shot two men and that those two men were criminals who were breaking into someone's home to steal from them. That information is 100% certain. Saying that Joe Horn is just some racist who "couldn't wait" to kill a brown-skinned person and calling that 100% certain is complete nonsense.

 

 

I never mentioned the race card thing, that was someone else. My point was, there is a reasonable amount of info on those tapes, to draw the conclusion that Horn was pretty intent on killing someone, whether he was in danger or not. What is being left out, is that police were at the scene when Horn shot. People get arrested for talking back to police, for being uncoopertative. Unless the officers on the scene were imploring him to kill the robbers, I think it is a reasonable assumption that Horn operarted outside the law. Much is made of the fact that they were on his property (incidental contact it sounds like), which gives him the right to shoot. But, it would be hard to convince me that he was feeling threatened, or in immediate danger, if he hadn't shot them in the back, as they were heading away. That is the part, I think, where a lot of people can't help but feel that his actions went above and beyond...there has also been stateements that while Horn told the operator he was inside his home, he was actually outside, aiming his gun.

 

If you want to present, as facts, for your argument, that the guys who were killed were parasites, and crimials (I am not denying that may be true), than you also have to accept that fact that there is verbal evidence, as meaningless as you seem to think it is, that Horn was intent on killing.

[Buftex]

Yup. Sounds like a man just waiting and wanting to kill someone. God. Some of you people are delusional.

 

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/5866865.html

 

"I would never advocate anyone doing what I did," Horn said from his attorney's west Houston home. "We are not geared for that."

 

 

 

"I know what a hero is, and that's not me," he said. "I'm a human being that was in a situation that I'd never been in before, and I didn't want to die."

 

This is laughable...who is being delusional here? This is akin to a murder apologizing to a family for killing someone in their family. So, he is sorry, and regrets that he was so cornered, and forced to overreact to something? For someone who is not geared for that, he certainly seemed anxious to jump into it....

[SilverNRed]

If you want to present, as facts, for your argument, that the guys who were killed were parasites, and crimials (I am not denying that may be true), than you also have to accept that fact that there is verbal evidence, as meaningless as you seem to think it is, that Horn was intent on killing.

Do you or do you not think that seeing people breaking into your neighbor's house is a scary thing? No doubt in my mind that Horn, or anyone, would be frightened by that. If he was intent on anything, it was stopping them because living in a neighborhood where men can just break into homes at will is not a good thing. And if it went down the way he said it did after he went outside, then he has nothing to feel bad about.

 

If all he wanted to do was kill someone that day, why did he bother calling 911 at all or debating with the operator about what to do?

[SilverNRed]

Sounds like a guy itching for a confrontation to me. Anything he's saying now is his ass trying to keep out of jail for murder. Guess it worked.

He was also itching to live in a neighborhood where people break into houses too, right?

[Buftex]

Do you or do you not think that seeing people breaking into your neighbor's house is a scary thing? No doubt in my mind that Horn, or anyone, would be frightened by that. If he was intent on anything, it was stopping them because living in a neighborhood where men can just break into homes at will is not a good thing. And if it went down the way he said it did after he went outside, then he has nothing to feel bad about.

 

If all he wanted to do was kill someone that day, why did he bother calling 911 at all or debating with the operator about what to do?

 

 

He was hardly debating with the operator, from what I heard. It sounded to me, more like someone who knew they were about to do something that might not be right, but just wanted reassurance....he told the operator what he was going to do, he never asked if it was okay. In fact, he reminded the operator about the new laws that went into affect on Sept 1st...not much was open to debate.

[SilverNRed]

He was hardly debating with the operator, from what I heard. It sounded to me, more like someone who knew they were about to do something that might not be right, but just wanted reassurance....he told the operator what he was going to do, he never asked if it was okay. In fact, he reminded the operator about the new laws that went into affect on Sept 1st...not much was open to debate.

If he wanted to shoot someone, why call 911 at all? Wouldn't it be easier to just walk outside with your gun and start shooting? There's no way you call 911 and the operator gives you the green light to go outside with your gun.

[shrader]

That's not what I said. I have no problem with illegals jaywalking. And I have no problem with any career criminal, illegal or not, catching a bullet in the back.

 

The 'burglary doesn't justify death' argument just doesn't hold water. The accumulated net contribution/detraction to/from society by these filth deserved death, and that's what they got. Sometimes you gotta step back and just ask if justice was served. I can recall few cases where the answer was so clearly a 'yes'.

 

 

I'm guess I'm just a sucker for true justice....

 

So I'm confused. If the "burglary doesn't justify death" argument doesn't hold water, why don't convicted burglars face the death penalty?

[Buftex]

If he wanted to shoot someone, why call 911 at all? Wouldn't it be easier to just walk outside with your gun and start shooting? There's no way you call 911 and the operator gives you the green light to go outside with your gun.

 

I don't know. But listen to the recording. He never once asks if he should shoot, or for any other advice, he just tells the operator that he is going to shoot them, and reminds the operator of the law. I think (and I know that meand little) in reminding the operator about the law, he is trying to get some sort of "official" acknowledgment that it is within his rights to shoot. He sounds a lot more defiant than he does scared. Also, keep in mind, he is lying to the operator as to his whereabouts during the call. He is leaving his home to start a confrontation, not trying to avoid one. He tells the operator he is inside, but, is in fact, outside the house. Police were already on the scene.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter what we think. He is not going to be charged with anything...and I guess, in this case, there is no harm in poor judgement. I just think it is odd that so many here are praising this guy as a hero. Shooting two criminals in the back is more cowardly than anything. If an officer had done that, in many parts of the country, he would likely lose his badge. This guy, acting against the advice of a police representitive, just simply decided his judgement was the last word...and it looks like he was right.

[KD in CA]

So I'm confused. If the "burglary doesn't justify death" argument doesn't hold water, why don't convicted burglars face the death penalty?

Because we are a nation of pussies.

 

 

Yup. Sounds like a man just waiting and wanting to kill someone.

 

Exactly. To me this is the entire distinction. Joe Horn isn't a 'murderer'. I saw no reports that he ever shot anyone before and it's about a million to one that he'll ever shoot anyone again. He used correct judgment and execution to do what he had to in order to protect his neighborhood from vile filth. Had there been no vile filth, there would have been no shots fired by Mr. Horn. His actions were the result of someone else's criminal acts and hence fully justified.

 

Contrast that to said vile filth. What was the rational, justification or reason behind their actions? Simple...there was none. And unlike Mr. Horn, who was merely acting in response to a situation that will almost certainly never arise again, the filth had in the past and would have continued in the future to commit crime after crime until they were stopped.

 

Obviously that's just fine with some people, who think that if a "burglar" gets away before the cops show up than good for him. I guess I'd rather such "burglars" be taken care of before they decide to escalate the level of their violence.

[gmac17]

a few comments:

 

1) If the law had never been changed, I do not think he would have shot the guys. He clearly was pissed off, knew that he had a new law on his side and went shooting.

 

2) Posting his side of the story and saying "see, this is what happened" is silliness.

 

3) He didn't shoot them because he was scared. He shot them because he was pissed off. Big difference.

 

4) Stop calling this a robbery. It was a burglary. Big difference.

 

5) For those of you that are cheering joe on, would it have been ok to shoot two drunk college kids stealing a bike or something from the garage?

[KD in CA]

1) If the law had never been changed, I do not think he would have shot the guys. He clearly was pissed off, knew that he had a new law on his side and went shooting.

Then good for him. That ought to appeal to those who want to analyze the legalities here. Personally I don't care about that -- I prefer when justice trumps the law.

 

3) He didn't shoot them because he was scared. He shot them because he was pissed off. Big difference.

No question about it. Good to see the good guys get pissed off now and again when the situation calls for it.

 

4) Stop calling this a robbery. It was a burglary. Big difference.

Let's call it a home invasion, which is even more deadly than a robbery in a public place where the criminals know they have a time line to escape. Does anyone believe that filth -- especially illegals -- would have hesitated to beat, rape or kill anyone who happened to be in the house? I just posted a link about a recent "burglary" here in CT.

 

5) For those of you that are cheering Joe on, would it have been ok to shoot two drunk college kids stealing a bike or something from the garage?

Of course not but that's completely irrelevant because he didn't shoot two college kids stealing a bike. He shot two adult career criminals looting a house. You can't condemn his decision making process by assuming different facts. Talk about silliness!

[D_House]

a few comments:

 

1) If the law had never been changed, I do not think he would have shot the guys. He clearly was pissed off, knew that he had a new law on his side and went shooting.

From an article in the Houston Chronicle online.

 

In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion.

 

But Sen. Jeff Wentworth, who wrote the law, said it did not apply to Horn's case.

 

"It was not an issue in this case other than him saying incorrectly that he understood it to mean he could protect his neighbor's property," said Wentworth, R-San Antonio.

 

He said the castle doctrine simply didn't apply because, although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn, Horn's home wasn't under siege — his neighbor's home was.

 

"It comes from the saying 'A man's home is his castle,' " Wentworth said. "But this wasn't his castle."

[KD in CA]

From an article in the Houston Chronicle online.

 

In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion.

 

But Sen. Jeff Wentworth, who wrote the law, said it did not apply to Horn's case.

 

"It was not an issue in this case other than him saying incorrectly that he understood it to mean he could protect his neighbor's property," said Wentworth, R-San Antonio.

 

He said the castle doctrine simply didn't apply because, although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn, Horn's home wasn't under siege — his neighbor's home was.

 

"It comes from the saying 'A man's home is his castle,' " Wentworth said. "But this wasn't his castle."

 

but, but, but.....I thought it took a village?

[gmac17]

No question about it. Good to see the good guys get pissed off now and again when the situation calls for it.

 

fair enough - at least we have one person admitting that this happened because a guy was mad and wanted to kill a burglar, and not because he was scared or because he was in any danger.

[bills_fan]

Exactly. To me this is the entire distinction. Joe Horn isn't a 'murderer'. I saw no reports that he ever shot anyone before and it's about a million to one that he'll ever shoot anyone again. He used correct judgment and execution to do what he had to in order to protect his neighborhood from vile filth. Had there been no vile filth, there would have been no shots fired by Mr. Horn. His actions were the result of someone else's criminal acts and hence fully justified.

 

Based upon the threat the DA received, Joe Horn may have to keep a loaded gun ready for quite a while.

 

Let's call it a home invasion, which is even more deadly than a robbery in a public place where the criminals know they have a time line to escape. Does anyone believe that filth -- especially illegals -- would have hesitated to beat, rape or kill anyone who happened to be in the house? I just posted a link about a recent "burglary" here in CT.

 

Anyone arguing against what Horn did should really first read the link you posted. Horrible, horrible story. How simple "property theft" can very quickly turn deadly...a man lost his whole family to a couple of scumbags because they happened to be home during the burglary. Guess what...shoot first and ask questions later.

 

EDIT: Here is the article to which KD was referring. Read it, and then tell me you don't agree with Mr. Horn.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/nyregion/07slay.html

[WellDressed]

So what.

 

The thieves became the hunter at first and then became the hunted. Nothing wrong with that. Good for Mr. Horn, he made the right choice...

 

In my eyes, Mr. Horn was havin' himself a lynchn' party. That shat ain't right; not one bit.