Would everyone who would like to see Trent Edwards

[Kelly the Dog]

He was just giving the company line. What was he supposed to say "we pounced on Edwards because we think Losman stinks & will not be with us once his original contract is up"

Marv is a clever, smart, thinking man's man. What he is not, for the vast majority of the time, a flat out liar, making stuff up for no apparent reason. If what you said was true, he was not saying the company line, he was flat out lying and just making stuff up. That the Bills actually were looking for a QB early and to replace Losman, but I am telling you we wanted to wait until the late rounds and hope a guy would be there. The company line would have been, "You can never have enough good quarterbacks, and we couldn't believe he was still there. We had to take him." Which is pretty much what he said.

 

Again, if you know you have NO quarterback, do you actually wait until the end of round three to hope for a guy that you even admit the Bills had rated the #2 QB in the draft? The answer is a HUGE no chance.

[Gordio]

Again, i dont know why this is so tough for you to understand. If the Bills already knew that Losman wasnt their guy, they would have either brought in a vet during the offseason, or drafted a QB earlier. If they liked Edwards that much, they would have drafted him in round 2, instead of hoping he falls to them at the end of round 3.

 

If you need a new QB, you dont hope that a QB who is projected to go in round 2 falls to the end of round 3. At that point it became a relatively simple decision of Edwards being far and away the BPA.

 

 

Maybe I used too strong of words. Turning the page was the wrong choice of words. I should of said , they had their doubts on him after the 06 season, maybe were not fully committed to him as being their guy. Once Edwards fell into their laps & they saw first hand his grasp of the offense, I really think they were looking for the first opportunity to get him in there. Horrible mindset to have by your coaching staff go into the season like that but it is what it is I guess.

[dave mcbride]

The irrelevant stats that disprove your arguments that he's a terribly inaccurate passer?

 

There were a series of events that happened that led to the decision that Edwards would be named the starter going into 2008. To me, it makes sense. Here is what I believe happened. Notice that in my evaluations of both Edwards and Losman, I point out good and bad elements of both. You rarely if ever do.

 

This is my interpretation of why Edwards is the starter. Some is fact, some is opinion that few if any would refute, some is insider knowledge and some is per conjecture on my part. The real fact is that none of us know for sure exactly what happened. This is my best guess. You and others here can debate whether you think it's true or possible or bullschit.

 

1. High expectations were held that Losman would realize his potential coming off a pretty darn good year in 2006 all things considered. Good stats. In the playoff hunt. Very little help from the line, no run game, no TE, one reliable WR, terrible coaching and an excruciating schedule. Yet, once they changed the line and took off the handcuffs he did well.

 

2. Immediately he did not do well. He played bad in game one. The entire team played bad. For no reason, after the very first series where he rolled out and they had some innovative plays and they went right down the field, Fairchild cut it off. My opinion is because they never relinquished the lead, however small, they played super conservative the entire game and they never let him do what he does well (They rarely did the entire year). But the fact was, simultaneously, he had a bad game.

 

3. EVERYTHING would have been forgotten had he hit Evans on the long ball. We would very likely have won the game (He probably would still be the starter, but that's highly debatable). IMO, it was a good call, he had time, he had the look and the receiver and he simply missed the pass. That was completely on him. He blew it and we needed him to make that pass. He makes that pass to a wide open receiver 85-90% of the time and he just flat missed him.

 

4. He didn't play well against Pittsburgh either but got zero help against a very good team. I don't blame the game on him but he didn't play well. No one played well.

 

5. He got hurt on a freak and cheap play and it cost him several games.

 

6. Trent Edwards, in those games, looked pretty good. IMO, he looked very good for a rookie put in that situation. But that doesn't mean he lit up the scoreboard or did a lot of things people attributed to him.

 

7. Ralph Wilson, as is his wont and history, did a couple crucial things. One, he got enamored with Edwards right off the bat. He's been fuming for years about the Pats and what they did with Brady. He thinks he has his Brady, and at this point, he very well may have. Edwards looks very Brady-esque in his short time. Two, Ralph has a connundrum. He has to pay Losman 3-5 million in bonuses if JP takes 80% of the snaps. He knows Losman will be looking for a huge extension. He figures if I have Brady, and if Losman hasn't played well this year, I'm not paying him. He lays down the edict and JP isn't allowed to play when he is healthy.

 

8. Edwards doesn't turn out to be Brady in the next couple games, he plays more like Kelly Holcomb. He's not bad and he's still a rookie and shows a ton of potential.

 

9. Edwards gets hurt and JP must play. The Bills win a couple games. The coaches didn't have to make the tough decision. Edwards is recovering. Ralphie saves his 3-5 million because JP cannot earn the bonuses anymore and it's now becoming a debate behind the scenes as to whether they will sign him to a big extension. They don't want him as a lame duck next year and they now have this Edwards guy they are not sure of.

 

10. Losman has a bad game or two (I blame at least half on him and half on the little help and the coaching). JP is having a bad year although again, IMO, not allowed to do what he does well. Edwards is now healthy, but Losman is still the starter and they can't bench him so they give him a make or break game. Pretty much everyone knows that the Jax game will decide who starts the next week.

 

This has been predicated on two things simultaneously, play and money. JP has one more year left on his contract. If he doesn't play well against Jax and our playoff hopes are getting slim, we're not going to want to sign him to a huge extension. And we still may have Brady here. Why would we?

 

11. JP doesn't have a good game, he gets no help, he's put in a hard spot on the road against the team that plays in the championship game but the fact is, he didn't rise above his teammates, he sank to their depths. He needed to have a good game or somehow pull it out and he didn't. He had his chance, like in the Denver game, and he didn't come through.

 

12. Again, the coaches don't have to make the hard decision. The team is a longshot for the playoffs even though they still are mathematically in it. Ralph is not, for good reason, going to give Losman the extension the player and agent want, and we still may have Brady anyway, even though it's looking less likely.

 

13. Edwards starts and is not Brady. The team struggles although they are put in two horrendous weather games, and it's hard to blame Edwards, even though the other two veteran QBs managed to make some plays. He's still a rookie and he doesn't get any more help from his teammates or coaches than Losman did.

 

14. The season ends. There is no way they go into next year with an open camp battle because if Losman wins, which is at least 50-50 because he has a huge advantage over Edwards in experience, they not only have a QB controversy but a lame duck starter who is still unhappy with how he was treated. It COULD work, but the better play is to just announce that Edwards is starting and eliminate the controversy and hope he builds on his potential. He played better than most rookies.

 

That's what I think happened and why Edwards was named the starter.

Excellent post, Dog, although I'd add that Eli was positively dreadful in that game save for a couple of nice passes. It felt like he fumbled the ball 15 times.

NY Giants Comp Att Yds Pct Y/A Sack YdsL TD Int

E. Manning 7 15 111 46.7 7.4 2 17 0 2

[K-9]

Don't forget that in the '07 draft, they'd traded Holcolm... we had no second QB... so, there was going to be a QB drafted for sure. That doesn't necessarilly imply they were planning on replacing Losman at that point.

 

I agree with most of Kelly's points.

 

I don't think anyone on the Bills staff intentionally tanked Losman's career, because they would be tanking their own as well. I do think Fairchild was in over his head - and will be as a HC too... but that isn't our problem anymore. This day in age, to not put an audible package in, is extremely foolhardy at best. That isn't setting up your offense to succeed when you don't give them the chance to change a play at the line based on the defensive set.

 

...

 

OK, so you have 9 in the box, but we're going to run it anyways, since we can't change the play.

 

And when they have dime coverage, I guess we'll have to stick w/ the playcall.

 

Heck, My son's 7th/8th grade Pee-wee team calls audibles...

 

It couldn't have been hard for a defense to figure out they weren't able to audible - since usually you can tell when the offense is changing the play... so, they could do whatever they wanted, and audible themselves based on our formation...

 

To me, that isn't giving your offense the best possibility for success.

 

Perhaps, they were afraid Losman would audible too much, but that can be dealt with on the sideline...

 

I can't believe the no audible stuff, either. I'd agree it was all on Fairchild if he weren't the OC '06 as well. We had no audibles in '06? If that's the case then JP's (and the entire offense's) season was remarkable. To give defenses such a clear advantage is nothing short of stupid. That's why I don't believe it was just a simple case of doing away with audibles altogether. There had to have been more to it than that. Keeping it simple for the rookie QB maybe. Or knowing that certain personnel tend to miss the adjustments thus making the changed play even worse than the original call. I don't know. I just can't believe that Fairchild, having come from a system like Martz's, could just do away with an entire audible system from one season to the next.

 

Someone please tell me we didn't have the dumbest OC in the history of the league running our offense. And that our HC condoned it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

Well, like i said my opinion was just based on theory. I have no insider information, & the benching of Losman the first time probably did have to due with the bonus. It is truly sad if that is what it was totally about. The benching of him the 2nd time though I have to believe was due to his on the field performance & the lack of faith the coaching staff had in him.

And that is what I said in my original sequence of events. What I think happened simultaneously though, was the coaches realized that Edwards was not a sure thing, or the Brady guy as I described. That is all opinion. You may not agree. I also think that if Losman had two years left on his deal and Edwards three, or if Losman had three and Edwards four, it would be a complete open competition going into camp. I think the reason that Edwards was announced as the starter was as much or more due to the lame duck year, as the bad performance of JP in 2007 which I am fully admitting occurred.

[K-9]

And that is what I said in my original sequence of events. What I think happened simultaneously though, was the coaches realized that Edwards was not a sure thing, or the Brady guy as I described. That is all opinion. You may not agree. I also think that if Losman had two years left on his deal and Edwards three, or if Losman had three and Edwards four, it would be a complete open competition going into camp. I think the reason that Edwards was announced as the starter was as much or more due to the lame duck year, as the bad performance of JP in 2007 which I am fully admitting occurred.

 

Good point about the lame duck year.

 

There is a good possibility that JP will be called upon to play this year, assuming he stays on the roster through pre-season (which I fully expect). Can you imagine if JP ends up playing lights out and forces the coaches into keeping him in the lineup? That would be the irony of ironies. Stranger things have happened though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[zow2]

I'm tired of Losman supporters hanging onto the theory that his "Gunslinger" skills are hampered by the Bills coaches and/or talent around him. That's hogwash. One maior reason Losman is riding the bench is his inability to complete passes down the middle of the field or simple screens. The guy still cannot read a Defense properly. When he throw a 15-20 yd pass down the middle it's either deflected/incomplete/intercepted or thrown way too high. It's amazing how some people only remember the bombs down the left sidelines. That's really his only decent area.

 

Edwards in less than one season completed more strikes down the middle of the field to TE's and WR's than Losman has in his career here. Amazing how the TE's were so involved once Edwards started playing. With JP, they were invisible. I'm not even going to talk about the check down passes that Edwards completes that are critical in keeping drives alive. He will be fine.

[Cornerville]

I sense "statistics lie" and "JP is an idiot" posts coming.

 

 

Well, I see we have our first signature.

[Gordio]

Good point about the lame duck year.

 

There is a good possibility that JP will be called upon to play this year, assuming he stays on the roster through pre-season (which I fully expect). Can you imagine if JP ends up playing lights out and forces the coaches into keeping him in the lineup? That would be the irony of ironies. Stranger things have happened though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

No.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm tired of Losman supporters hanging onto the theory that his "Gunslinger" skills are hampered by the Bills coaches and/or talent around him. That's hogwash. One maior reason Losman is riding the bench is his inability to complete passes down the middle of the field or simple screens. The guy still cannot read a Defense properly. When he throw a 15-20 yd pass down the middle it's either deflected/incomplete/intercepted or thrown way too high. It's amazing how some people only remember the bombs down the left sidelines. That's really his only decent area.

 

Edwards in less than one season completed more strikes down the middle of the field to TE's and WR's than Losman has in his career here. Amazing how the TE's were so involved once Edwards started playing. With JP, they were invisible. I'm not even going to talk about the check down passes that Edwards completes that are critical in keeping drives alive. He will be fine.

Down the middle of the field, Trent Edwards was 14-30 for 198 yards the entire season, at 46.7%

I already showed in this thread that Losman's short passes were far more accurate overall than Edwards, statistically speaking.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10536

[1billsfan]

11. JP doesn't have a good game, he gets no help, he's put in a hard spot on the road against the team that plays in the championship game but the fact is, he didn't rise above his teammates, he sank to their depths. He needed to have a good game or somehow pull it out and he didn't. He had his chance, like in the Denver game, and he didn't come through.

 

Great post btw. I just wanted to point out a couple of things about J.P. Losman's "horrible" game at Jacksonville. He had the most completions (27), 4th best completion percentage (67.5) and the 4th best yardage (211) out of the entire 16 game 2007 schedule. All the while with being severely hamstrung with a deader than dead Anthony Thomas who gained a measly 46 yards on 15 carries. JP did make crucial mistakes, but he wasn't as bad as many here like to suggest. It's a nice thing as a DB to be able to jump on some routes when you know that A Train is in the Bills backfield the whole game.

[Kelly the Dog]

Great post btw. I just wanted to point out a couple of things about J.P. Losman's "horrible" game at Jacksonville. He had the most completions (27), 4th best completion percentage (67.5) and the 4th best yardage (211) out of the entire 16 game 2007 schedule. All the while with being severely hamstrung with a deader than dead Anthony Thomas who gained a measly 46 yards on 15 carries. JP did make crucial mistakes, but he wasn't as bad as many here like to suggest. It's a nice thing as a DB to be able to jump on some routes when you know that A Train is in the Bills backfield the whole game.

Good point. And it's true. Not having Marshawn for the short stretch was a huge difference.

 

That said, and most know here that I am a Losman supporter (although I like Edwards, too), we needed him to elevate his teammates more than he has. He needed to hit that throw against the Donkeys when it was open for him. We needed him to make the play to win the game or put us in a position to win the game. He did it against the Jets and sort of against Miami. We needed him to do it in Denver or Jax and he didn't.

[stuckincincy]

Good point. And it's true. Not having Marshawn for the short stretch was a huge difference.

 

That said, and most know here that I am a Losman supporter (although I like Edwards, too), we needed him to elevate his teammates more than he has. He needed to hit that throw against the Donkeys when it was open for him. We needed him to make the play to win the game or put us in a position to win the game. He did it against the Jets and sort of against Miami. We needed him to do it in Denver or Jax and he didn't.

 

 

Young Frankenstein!

[Bill from NYC]

7. Ralph Wilson, as is his wont and history, did a couple crucial things. One, he got enamored with Edwards right off the bat. He's been fuming for years about the Pats and what they did with Brady. He thinks he has his Brady, and at this point, he very well may have. Edwards looks very Brady-esque in his short time. Two, Ralph has a connundrum. He has to pay Losman 3-5 million in bonuses if JP takes 80% of the snaps. He knows Losman will be looking for a huge extension. He figures if I have Brady, and if Losman hasn't played well this year, I'm not paying him. He lays down the edict and JP isn't allowed to play when he is healthy.

 

Having met you and conversed with you for years, I think that you are telling the truth in terms of what you believe to be true wrt the above. I believe that it is true in principle. That said, it seems to place all of the decision upon the shoulders of Ralph, and I do have a hard time with this KTD.

 

Your post was also very honest in that you admitted that JP, despite high expectations, didn't play well. I find it hard to believe that the coaches, especially after being publicly called out, were enamored by JP or his play. Many disagree, but I think that when he mouthed off, right or wrong, he hurt himself with the brass. That of course is strictly my opinion, but I digress.

 

I think that aside from a few rabid supporters, JP is not held in such high esteem around the league. Parcells was openly critical of him if you recall. In other words....I have a hard time thinking that the coaches were hell bent on keeping him in there. I know that he only has a year left, but a top qb, even under those conditions, would command a ton in a trade. Why no offers from teams such as KC, Minn., Atlanta, the jests, etc.? They would be getting a player in his prime years, and could probably sign him long term to a very reasonable deal.

 

Now, frequent criticism notwithstanding, I don't think that JP was brought along properly. Bledsoe had a good year left when JP was handed the job, and he wasn't ready to be in there, unless the team was going to let him make his mistakes. Also, it is well doccumented how I feel about building an NFL team. Jauron and Levy came in and went right to the secondary in terms of the draft. IN 08 Jauron hit the ground running in the same direction yet again, and may never stop until he is fired. In 06, they gave JP a 5th Round Guard, and that was pretty much it. I find it strange that some of his biggest supporters condone this. Wouldn't you think that he needed more to improve?

 

Anyway, thanks for the dialogue.

[obie_wan]

Down the middle of the field, Trent Edwards was 14-30 for 198 yards the entire season, at 46.7%

I already showed in this thread that Losman's short passes were far more accurate overall than Edwards, statistically speaking.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10536

 

 

When speaking statistically, many things get lost in the numbers.

 

One of the biggest is the generation of yards after the catch.

 

The ability of the offense to convert 3rd downs and stay ont the field is dependant on the QB delivering the ball to the receiver is a position to turn upfield for more yardage.

 

A QB can get credit for a reception which results in a high completion percentage, while not helping his YAC. Low passes, high passes, button hooks thrown off target all can be caught - but do not threaten the defense.

 

When a QB is not trusted to throw to a moving WR on crossing pattern, slant or seam pattern, the offense becomes extremely hamstrung.

 

From what I saw of Trent, he was able to deliver the ball to his receivers in motion where they could turn upfield. He was also able to utilize the left, right and middle of the field.

 

He still needs to work on reading defenses, however, he has shown the ability to deliver the ball where it needs to be.

[C.Biscuit97]

Great post btw. I just wanted to point out a couple of things about J.P. Losman's "horrible" game at Jacksonville. He had the most completions (27), 4th best completion percentage (67.5) and the 4th best yardage (211) out of the entire 16 game 2007 schedule. All the while with being severely hamstrung with a deader than dead Anthony Thomas who gained a measly 46 yards on 15 carries. JP did make crucial mistakes, but he wasn't as bad as many here like to suggest. It's a nice thing as a DB to be able to jump on some routes when you know that A Train is in the Bills backfield the whole game.

 

 

Perfect case of statistics lying. I wanted Losman to seize the job, especially because it would have been a huge win on the road. But if you watched the game with your own two eyes, he was horrible. He was locking onto receivers and forcing passes into coverage. The Jags (and thanks to the Bills' defense) were just letting the Bills hang around and possibly steal a game. But in a close game, Losman turned the ball over 3 times and lost the game. I really question your objectivity if you can not say Losman wan't horrible in that game. And same "deader than dead" A Train made a great pass on a dump off pass on 3rd down (I thought only Trent Edwards dumps the ball off on 3rd down ) to give Losman his lone scoring pass.

 

Losman lost his job. If TE was producing stinker games like the Miami, Denver, Pittsburgh, and Jax in his 4th year, he shouldn't be starting. I'm amazed that people can defend average to below average QB play like this. Losman has proven he can't do the job. Edwards, may or may not, but he seems a lot more ahead of the game than JP.

[C.Biscuit97]

When speaking statistically, many things get lost in the numbers.

 

One of the biggest is the generation of yards after the catch.

 

The ability of the offense to convert 3rd downs and stay ont the field is dependant on the QB delivering the ball to the receiver is a position to turn upfield for more yardage.

 

A QB can get credit for a reception which results in a high completion percentage, while not helping his YAC. Low passes, high passes, button hooks thrown off target all can be caught - but do not threaten the defense.

 

When a QB is not trusted to throw to a moving WR on crossing pattern, slant or seam pattern, the offense becomes extremely hamstrung.

 

From what I saw of Trent, he was able to deliver the ball to his receivers in motion where they could turn upfield. He was also able to utilize the left, right and middle of the field.

 

He still needs to work on reading defenses, however, he has shown the ability to deliver the ball where it needs to be.

 

Wow. Instead of focusing on drafting o-linemen and saying a Bills' player falsely took steriods, you actually posted something of substance. I would stick to more posts like this instead of your others. Good post.

[Gordio]

Great post btw. I just wanted to point out a couple of things about J.P. Losman's "horrible" game at Jacksonville. He had the most completions (27), 4th best completion percentage (67.5) and the 4th best yardage (211) out of the entire 16 game 2007 schedule. All the while with being severely hamstrung with a deader than dead Anthony Thomas who gained a measly 46 yards on 15 carries. JP did make crucial mistakes, but he wasn't as bad as many here like to suggest. It's a nice thing as a DB to be able to jump on some routes when you know that A Train is in the Bills backfield the whole game.

 

 

You failed to mentioned however that 105 of his yards & 16 of the 27 completions came half way thru the 4th quarter or later, when the Jags went up by 8 or more points. We needed Losman to play good the whole game, not just in garbage time when the Jaguars were in a prevent defense.

[C.Biscuit97]

You failed to mentioned however that 105 of his yards & 16 of the 27 completions came half way thru the 4th quarter or later, when the Jags went up by 8 or more points. We needed Losman to play good the whole game, not just in garbage time when the Jaguars were in a prevent defense.

 

He's the same guy who constantly rips Jauron for being an average to below average coach yet keeps making excuses for Losman. The definition of irony.

[Kelly the Dog]

When speaking statistically, many things get lost in the numbers.

 

One of the biggest is the generation of yards after the catch.

 

The ability of the offense to convert 3rd downs and stay ont the field is dependant on the QB delivering the ball to the receiver is a position to turn upfield for more yardage.

 

A QB can get credit for a reception which results in a high completion percentage, while not helping his YAC. Low passes, high passes, button hooks thrown off target all can be caught - but do not threaten the defense.

 

When a QB is not trusted to throw to a moving WR on crossing pattern, slant or seam pattern, the offense becomes extremely hamstrung.

 

From what I saw of Trent, he was able to deliver the ball to his receivers in motion where they could turn upfield. He was also able to utilize the left, right and middle of the field.

 

He still needs to work on reading defenses, however, he has shown the ability to deliver the ball where it needs to be.

I agree with virtually all of that. I think Trent, on short passes, hits his receivers in perfect stride better than Losman does, perhaps significantly better. I also think, and it's a fact because if you watch the games and have the replays you can see it, Losman does it all the time. He hits guys in perfect stride every game. For some reason, his detractors give him no credit for this. Again, I think Edwards does this very well and better than Losman.