Trent Edwards' Arm Strength

[K-9]

name='1billsfan' date='Jun 23 2008, 05:21 PM' post='1062212']

...I'm getting sick of this needless JP Losman bashfest you're currently on. JP Losman had 12 freaking touchdown passes his last seven games of the 2006 season... .

 

... 2007 was a FUBAR situation that was mainly the result of a fearful coach and his trusty noodle-brained side kick Little Stevie Fairchild who wouldn't know an unpredictable and creative gameplan if it hit them in their dim-witted faces...

 

These two statements seem at odds. Weren't the same clueless HC and OC at the helm when JP tore it up those last 7 games in '06? What happened? Did the coaches just decide they didn't want anymore of that good thing in '07?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[keepthefaith]

name='1billsfan' date='Jun 23 2008, 05:21 PM' post='1062212']

 

 

These two statements seem at odds. Weren't the same clueless HC and OC at the helm when JP tore it up those last 7 games in '06? What happened? Did the coaches just decide they didn't want anymore of that good thing in '07?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Three people that need to show me a lot this year.

 

Jauron

Turk

Trent

 

Show me that each of you is competent at what you're paid to do. None of them have done this yet.

[Kelly the Dog]

The ONE thing you give credit to Trent for is actually 3 things, which all by themselves is probably good enough without further improvement for a .500 record. This is much more than 20% of what a QB needs to be successful in the NFL.

 

1. pre-snap read He has shown the ability to identify the defense shown pre-snap and to recognize which WR will be the best to exploit the coverage. Does not lock onto 1 WR.

 

2. post-snap read - After the snap, he is able to recognize what the defense is actually doing and to confirm that his pre-snap read was proper. Remains to be seen if he will be able to identify various stunts and tricks while under heavy pressure, but experience will help greatly in this regard.

 

3. hit WR in stride to generate yards after catch This is a huge plus which allows those short passes to become threats to turn into long gainers and 1st downs. No defesne is scared of an offense which is limted to throwing come backs and hitches due to the inaccuracy of its QB. This skill will allow the Bills to incorporate the seam pass to the TE and the slant pass back in to the offense.

Not really. The pre-snap read I gave him credit for, and that cannot be under-estimated, which I don't think I did. He doesn't at all excel in the post-snap read, which to me, is at least 2/3 of the factor in the category of "reading defenses". Trent even said himself on most plays he had already decided where he was going to go with the ball before the snap. He wasn't really reading defenses post-snap at all. Again, I am not denigrating his ability on the pre-snap SHORT PASS play, because it is a talent. But post snap is more important because many more things change and can go wrong. On short quick pass plays, it's not as big an issue. But on five and seven step drops, on plays more than 5 yards downfield, on all patterns that don't go to your first primary look, he didn't look or fare nearly as well. Reading defenses is a big QB category but it's still only a relative small percentage of it compared to wins, scoring points, limiting turnovers, making first downs and drives, hitting all kinds of passes at various lengths, knowing when to hold'em and when to fold 'em. knowing when to gamble and when to go for the jugular, managing the clock, scrambling, avoiding the rush, handing the ball off ( a hugely discounted essential trait), ballhandling, touch on passes, making the big play, shrugging off bad plays, utilizing the strengths of your teammates, etc.

 

Short passes at 5 yards in stride he did that very well, as I said. Hitting receivers in stride more than 5 he didn't do as well. More than 10 he did worse. 15 and more he was average at best. Long balls overall he was poor.

[K-9]

The ONE thing you give credit to Trent for is actually 3 things, which all by themselves is probably good enough without further improvement for a .500 record. This is much more than 20% of what a QB needs to be successful in the NFL.

 

1. pre-snap read He has shown the ability to identify the defense shown pre-snap and to recognize which WR will be the best to exploit the coverage. Does not lock onto 1 WR.

 

2. post-snap read - After the snap, he is able to recognize what the defense is actually doing and to confirm that his pre-snap read was proper. Remains to be seen if he will be able to identify various stunts and tricks while under heavy pressure, but experience will help greatly in this regard.

 

3. hit WR in stride to generate yards after catch This is a huge plus which allows those short passes to become threats to turn into long gainers and 1st downs. No defesne is scared of an offense which is limted to throwing come backs and hitches due to the inaccuracy of its QB. This skill will allow the Bills to incorporate the seam pass to the TE and the slant pass back in to the offense.

 

Edwards could be the Evelyn Wood of pre/post snap reads and it won't make a damn bit of difference if his skill players aren't on the same page. Are you listening Roscoe? When you look at some of the coaches tape from last year it's painfully obvious that Parrish and Royal were the biggest idiots out there. Makes sense since they saw all the single coverage with Evans doubled most of the time. They were equal opportunity dimwits; they screwed up a fair share of JP's plays as well. Edwards is just more adept at finding his last options.

 

disclaimer: the above reference to TE's ability to find his last options is in no way meant to impugn the ability of JP Losman.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[K-9]

Three people that need to show me a lot this year.

 

Jauron

Turk

Trent

 

Show me that each of you is competent at what you're paid to do. None of them have done this yet.

 

Agree 100%.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Dawgg]

Short passes at 5 yards in stride he did that very well, as I said. Hitting receivers in stride more than 5 he didn't do as well. More than 10 he did worse. 15 and more he was average at best. Long balls overall he was poor.

 

The vast majority of his pass attempts were short dink-and-dunk routes.

 

When the Bills did go long, it was when defenses knew it was coming -- 3rd and long situations; at the end of the game with no time outs, etc...

[Kelly the Dog]

The vast majority of his pass attempts were short dink-and-dunk routes.

 

When the Bills did go long, it was when defenses knew it was coming -- 3rd and long situations; at the end of the game with no time outs, etc...

The majority of his passes were short. The "vast "majority were not 5 yards or less, even if you count plays that weren't designed to go five yards or less like his overly quick dump offs (not all of them, of course, were overly quick, sometimes his dumps off were very well timed). But what I was saying was that his immediate drop and fire passes he was very good on. As he went longer they were less right on the money overall. Most passers of course that is true, but he wasnt an accurate passer more than about 7 yards. Passes thrown 11 yards and longer he was 31-68 for 46%. Passes thrown over 21 yards he was 6-23 for 26%. This is just anecdotal but to me he was almost always very accurate when he dropped back and immediately threw. He was A LOT less accurate when he had to look before he threw.

[ieatcrayonz]

Record-wise (which is the main thing that matters), yes Holcomb and Edwards out perform JP.

Trent beat the Jets in both starts last year. Let's see Clean up the city boy do that. Plus, Holcomb has a great record against AFC opponents likes the Chiefs. Stats don't lie.

[ieatcrayonz]

I'll second the observation about Jessica Alba.

It's fat.

[ieatcrayonz]

It's not about his arm, but Vic writes about Trent today.. http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=4...mp;confirm=true

Be honest.

 

In that picture does his throwing style resemble Lamar from "Revenge of the Nerds"?

 

I said be honest.

[dave mcbride]

The majority of his passes were short. The "vast "majority were not 5 yards or less, even if you count plays that weren't designed to go five yards or less like his overly quick dump offs (not all of them, of course, were overly quick, sometimes his dumps off were very well timed). But what I was saying was that his immediate drop and fire passes he was very good on. As he went longer they were less right on the money overall. Most passers of course that is true, but he wasnt an accurate passer more than about 7 yards. Passes thrown 11 yards and longer he was 31-68 for 46%. Passes thrown over 21 yards he was 6-23 for 26%. This is just anecdotal but to me he was almost always very accurate when he dropped back and immediately threw. He was A LOT less accurate when he had to look before he threw.

That's good info, and thanks. I will add, though, that the Cleveland and Giants games make a lot of these stats unreliable. Two unbelievably poor weather games accounted for 1/5 of his playing time, and that affects stats in weird ways. I can't remember the Bills ever playing two weather games like that in one season, much less in a 10 game starting period for a QB. When the weather was half decent, he was significantly more accurate than any reasonable person could have expected. One other thing -- his only decent receiver was out for most of the final game against Philly. Yeah, everyone deals with injuries and bad weather, but it really skewed his stats given the relatively small number of starts. Lest we forget, Kelly played badly in some poor-weather games as well. Indeed, that loss to the Pats that blew their playoff chances -- at home -- in 1987 comes to mind. He was flat out awful in that game.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'll second the observation about Jessica Alba.

http://thetrawbros.files.wordpress.com/200...a-bikini-07.jpg

[Kelly the Dog]

That's good info, and thanks. I will add, though, that the Cleveland and Giants games make a lot of these stats unreliable. Two unbelievably poor weather games accounted for 1/5 of his playing time, and that affects stats in weird ways. I can't remember the Bills ever playing two weather games like that in one season, much less in a 10 game starting period for a QB. When the weather was half decent, he was significantly more accurate than any reasonable person could have expected. One other thing -- his only decent receiver was out for most of the final game against Philly. Yeah, everyone deals with injuries and bad weather, but it really skewed his stats given the relatively small number of starts. Lest we forget, Kelly played badly in some poor-weather games as well. Indeed, that loss to the Pats that blew their playoff chances -- at home -- in 1987 comes to mind. He was flat out awful in that game.

In the Giants game he was 60% on balls 11 yards or longer, 3-5 for 81 yards, with one INT. One of his best games on balls more than 11 yards.

[Sisyphean Bills]

In the Giants game he was 60% on balls 11 yards or longer, 3-5 for 81 yards, with one INT. One of his best games on balls more than 11 yards.

Clearly, it was weather aided.

[dave mcbride]

In the Giants game he was 60% on balls 11 yards or longer, 3-5 for 81 yards, with one INT. One of his best games on balls more than 11 yards.

I know I'm stepping away from your stat-based argument, but he was terrible throwing into the wind in that game. He hit a few deep throws early on with the wind at his back, including a bomb TD to Evans. In fact, I would bet that the three completions were with the wind, and the incompletions against it. The point is, he played badly when the conditions were tough. The Cleveland game was ridiculous.

[dave mcbride]

I know I'm stepping away from your stat-based argument, but he was terrible throwing into the wind in that game. He hit a few deep throws early on with the wind at his back, including a bomb TD to Evans. In fact, I would bet that the three completions were with the wind, and the incompletions against it. The point is, he played badly when the conditions were tough. The Cleveland game was ridiculous.

Plus this, which sheds some light:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...aTr01_games.htm

[Adam]

Trent beat the Jets in both starts last year. Let's see Clean up the city boy do that. Plus, Holcomb has a great record against AFC opponents likes the Chiefs. Stats don't lie.

Ok now, I do stats for a living, and I can tell you for sure- stats CAN lie- they can say whatever you want them too. And another thing- there is no level of football where they track wins for quarterbacks like they do for pitchers. And I hate to take anything away from Trent, as he had an outstanding year, considering he was a rookie, but when he left the Jets game with an injury, the score was tied, and we had been abysmal on offense.

 

When JP came in, everything changed- does that define which QB is better? Absolutely not- both QB's have done well in relief for the other. They are opposites and compliment each other well. Both have a real good shot at being quality starters> I may be the only one, but I am glad we have both on the roster

[Flbillsfan#1]

Well you are saying that Trent will have to find the endzone for the Bills to make the playoffs but, if he does it's not because of him? You can't have it both ways. Maybe the offense has to find the endzone more?

Yes the offense has to find the endzone MORE, for the Bills to make the playoffs. What I am saying is it STARTS with the QB, Trent in this case. He has to make the throw, trust his receivers to catch the ball & not constantly check down for little or no gain. If Trent plays well, he will play a PART of the Bills going to the playoffs. I am not trying to have it both ways, Marino, Favre, Elway............ NO QB wins by himself that is what I am saying. If the Bills make the playoffs it will be because the ENTIRE team is better....... including Trent.

[keepthefaith]

Yes the offense has to find the endzone MORE, for the Bills to make the playoffs. What I am saying is it STARTS with the QB, Trent in this case. He has to make the throw, trust his receivers to catch the ball & not constantly check down for little or no gain. If Trent plays well, he will play a PART of the Bills going to the playoffs. I am not trying to have it both ways, Marino, Favre, Elway............ NO QB wins by himself that is what I am saying. If the Bills make the playoffs it will be because the ENTIRE team is better....... including Trent.

 

I say it STARTS with the head coach and I hold him entirely accountable for the dismal offensive production and the stunting of JP's growth as a QB. Trent may be on the same path unfortunately.

[Flbillsfan#1]

Of course he did. He was much better. 5, or even 4 wins as a starter is a couple of years worth for Losman. Instead of tossing infield practice or throwing 30 yards in altitude sideline quick outs that wound up in the seats, Edwards sustained drives, this as a rookie. Do you think that Jauron benched JP for no reason? Please be serious.

 

I did the exact same thing that you are doing now. I watched RJ, saw his talent, and was convinced that he would be a great quarterback. I readily admit this, and I was flat out wrong. It doesn't work in itself. It takes more than raw talent to quarterback an NFL Team. Otherwise, Ryan Leif and Jeff George would be in the Hall of Fame instead of Len Dawson and Joe Montana.

 

Forget about JP. He is second rate. At least Trent has a chance to be a winner. I like his odds myself.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I notice you IGNORED the rest of that post. GO back & watch the Redskin game. Trent UNDERTHREW & OVERTHREW his receivers ALL GAME just what you are accusing JP of. He did NOT sustain drives long enough to REACH the ENDZONE.