thebug Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Trent did not outplay JP last year PERIOD. I just saw the Redskins game again, & for most of that game Trent did EXACTLY what you accuse JP of. He underthrew & overthrew his receivers time after time. The only drive he looked good was the last drive of the game. This thread is about TRENT not JP, try defending him on his own merits. If the Bills do well in 08 Trent will have played a part, but if they make the playoffs it will be because the entire team is better, not because Trent is at QB. Here's a quote from you.... "Trent will have to find the end zone in 08 for the Bills to make the playoffs in my opinion. " Hmmmmm?
Flbillsfan#1 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Here's a quote from you.... "Trent will have to find the end zone in 08 for the Bills to make the playoffs in my opinion. " Hmmmmm? I think that is true, but don't understand your point.
Adam Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 He was reaching with the 80%, I think that even he will admit that. Much of the rest was to provide a safety net for JP in case Trent plays well. It will be because the entire team is better, not because Trent, even in his rookie season, was better than Losman. In other words.....a new JP excuse. A long term, original one at that. So many here desperately want one QB to be ahead of the other. The reality that neither is a finished product, and neither has an adequate supporting cast at this point. It will be another cold winter with no playoffs, and thats a fact. Another fact is that despite all the complaining, everyone will end up being patient because there really is no other choice- other than quitting being a Bills fan, and I, much like the Bills know that won't happen
thebug Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I think that is true, but don't understand your point. Well you are saying that Trent will have to find the endzone for the Bills to make the playoffs but, if he does it's not because of him? You can't have it both ways. Maybe the offense has to find the endzone more?
Ramius Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Trent did not outplay JP last year PERIOD. I just saw the Redskins game again, & for most of that game Trent did EXACTLY what you accuse JP of. He underthrew & overthrew his receivers time after time. The only drive he looked good was the last drive of the game. This thread is about TRENT not JP, try defending him on his own merits. If the Bills do well in 08 Trent will have played a part, but if they make the playoffs it will be because the entire team is better, not because Trent is at QB. Bill cant actually defend any criticism of trent without resorting to some type of losman-bashing.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 So many here desperately want one QB to be ahead of the other. The reality that neither is a finished product, and neither has an adequate supporting cast at this point. It will be another cold winter with no playoffs, and thats a fact. Another fact is that despite all the complaining, everyone will end up being patient because there really is no other choice- other than quitting being a Bills fan, and I, much like the Bills know that won't happen Umm, just because you say something doesn't make it a fact. Maybe we should tell all the fans who bought tickets that Adam says the Bills won't be in the playoffs.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 How many deep balls did you see Edwards throw? I didn't see that many, so I find it hard to draw a conclusion on his ability/inability to throw the ball deep. Deep routes certainly weren't a staple of the offense last year. Moreover, it took Tom Brady a few years to add the deep ball to his arsenal, so I wouldn't necessarily fret that Trent didn't have a rocket arm in his rookie year. Two throws that did catch my eye: the deep ball he threw to Lee Evans in December against Miami and the 30 yard pass he threw at Washington to Josh Reed -- both throws required considerable arm strength and he executed them quite well all things considered. Expect opposing defenses to take away the underneath routes and FORCE Edwards to throw that deep ball the Bills claim we will see so much of. And if Edwards can't beat them with that deep ball, he is going to get a face full of blitzes and end up where he has been so often in his college and pro career....injured and on the sideline. Of course he has work to do physically. But I'd rather have a QB who excels at the mental part of the game, makes the right decisions QUICKLY and doesn't make mistakes than the classic rocket-armed QB who has all the physical tools but makes too many mental errors. I've seen plenty of that with Bledsoe and Losman. This guy has a chance, let's see what he makes of it. Wow, the Dawgg with a positive Bills post.
thebug Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 So many here desperately want one QB to be ahead of the other. The reality that neither is a finished product, and neither has an adequate supporting cast at this point. It will be another cold winter with no playoffs, and thats a fact. Another fact is that despite all the complaining, everyone will end up being patient because there really is no other choice- other than quitting being a Bills fan, and I, much like the Bills know that won't happen We are hosting a wildcard game this year! GO BILLS!
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 every back-up QB? Are you seeing double? JP didn't play well last season, and nobody will debate that. While I don't think we should change QB's again and go back to him, it doesn't make him a throw away QB. He showed flashes of the success he had two seasons ago. As far as Edwards goes, he showed promise as well, but lets not get ahead of ourselves- he showed flashes too, but has a very long way to go. When he struggles this year and possibly next, I hope the coaching staff not only ignores the fans desire to change QB's, but I hope the staff shows distain for the fans and talks down to them Record-wise (which is the main thing that matters), yes Holcomb and Edwards out perform JP.
hit and marshawn Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 The bills are winning the super bowl this year and THAT is a fact
Adam Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Record-wise (which is the main thing that matters), yes Holcomb and Edwards out perform JP. Holcomb was a finished product, JP still isn't. Edwards had a good stretch and had his share of struggles as well. Our team sucked last year- the whole thing right down to the water boys and the fans.
Swift Sylvan Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Whether Trent out played JP last year can be argued either way, but at the end of the day the team went 7-9. Trent went 5-4 as a starter, but REALLY only led the team to a 4-4 record. If someone was to argue that Trent in his 5th year will be a better player than JP is now then I think that is an argument that would be very HARD to argue against. To be honest I don't particularly care who is better now, unless we decide to imitate Arizona with a 1-2 punch I want to see only 1 of them play the whole season. JP is the backup the end. Whether or not he should play is irrelevant because as long as Trent plays reasonably well, and doesn't get hurt, he should get to play the whole season. However, then the question is what constitutes playing well for a 2nd year Quarterback in Buffalo weather where the only thing we REALLY did to help our offense was draft a rookie 6-6 receiver. JP WAS the unquestionable starter at the start of last year. If we go 0-3 or if Trent throws 5 picks with only 2 TD's how long before Dick gets nervous for his make or break year and yanks him out? Fairchild.....he either can be blamed for both QB's struggling or neither, either both have the potential to do well with a competent OC or both or going to struggle for a while. I am inclined to believe the former with JP, Lee, and Josh all saying that his play calling was unoriginal and could be defended by an 8 year old. I also feel I should believe Lee when he said that there was more to blame than JP for his inconsistent playing last year. (Paraphrasing) Does JP have the ability to succeed as a starting QB? The answer is it shouldn't matter. Trent is our starter and we're going to go as far as he and the rest of the team leads us, provided he doesn't get injured or yanked out if he stumbles. That being said Trent NEEDS to work on his deep throws and learn how to beat teams that stack the box. I hope he becomes a really good player and improves a lot this year because I don't think we did very much to really help him offensively for this season. If Turk is better than Fairchild that will be a huge boost, but we have no idea how good he will be until game 1. Trent, JP, Hamdam (Mr.Chroise) we can argue about who we WANT to start, but Trent is starting and I hope he leads the team to a 16-0 record. I hope he goes to the pro bowl and gets the Bills a SB win in his tenure as a Bill.
Adam Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Whether Trent out played JP last year can be argued either way, but at the end of the day the team went 7-9. Trent went 5-4 as a starter, but REALLY only led the team to a 4-4 record. If someone was to argue that Trent in his 5th year will be a better player than JP is now then I think that is an argument that would be very HARD to argue against. To be honest I don't particularly care who is better now, unless we decide to imitate Arizona with a 1-2 punch I want to see only 1 of them play the whole season. JP is the backup the end. Whether or not he should play is irrelevant because as long as Trent plays reasonably well, and doesn't get hurt, he should get to play the whole season. However, then the question is what constitutes playing well for a 2nd year Quarterback in Buffalo weather where the only thing we REALLY did to help our offense was draft a rookie 6-6 receiver. JP WAS the unquestionable starter at the start of last year. If we go 0-3 or if Trent throws 5 picks with only 2 TD's how long before Dick gets nervous for his make or break year and yanks him out? Fairchild.....he either can be blamed for both QB's struggling or neither, either both have the potential to do well with a competent OC or both or going to struggle for a while. I am inclined to believe the former with JP, Lee, and Josh all saying that his play calling was unoriginal and could be defended by an 8 year old. I also feel I should believe Lee when he said that there was more to blame than JP for his inconsistent playing last year. (Paraphrasing) Does JP have the ability to succeed as a starting QB? The answer is it shouldn't matter. Trent is our starter and we're going to go as far as he and the rest of the team leads us, provided he doesn't get injured or yanked out if he stumbles. That being said Trent NEEDS to work on his deep throws and learn how to beat teams that stack the box. I hope he becomes a really good player and improves a lot this year because I don't think we did very much to really help him offensively for this season. If Turk is better than Fairchild that will be a huge boost, but we have no idea how good he will be until game 1. Trent, JP, Hamdam (Mr.Chroise) we can argue about who we WANT to start, but Trent is starting and I hope he leads the team to a 16-0 record. I hope he goes to the pro bowl and gets the Bills a SB win in his tenure as a Bill. I agree completely- but it is time to stop trying to place blame. We sucked in every aspect last year, and thats that. Just because Edwards can't throw the ball on a rope downfield shouldn't shut down the offense- we need guys who can run routes and get open underneath.
1billsfan Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 When he struggles this year and possibly next, I hope the coaching staff not only ignores the fans desire to change QB's, but I hope the staff shows distain for the fans and talks down to them Yeah that'll work... "F' you stupid fans. Though I may be the owner of only one winning season out of eight as an NFL head coach you fans have no f'n idea of what a genius coaching job I've been doing since I've arrived here in this crap town. You're all, with the exception of Adam and Mr. Wilson, too stupid to realize how great our team is gonna be in 2011! What a bunch of impatient morons. You don't even deserve the right to listen to me."
Adam Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Yeah that'll work... "F' you stupid fans. Though I may be the owner of only one winning season out of eight as an NFL head coach you fans have no f'n idea of what a genius coaching job I've been doing since I've arrived here in this crap town. You're all, with the exception of Adam and Mr. Wilson, too stupid to realize how great our team is gonna be in 2011! What a bunch of impatient morons. You don't even deserve the right to listen to me." True. I wouldn't be that harsh about it, but the fans would still show up at the games. When I coached, I didn't let the parents fill out my lineup card- despite the fact that for a season my player with the highest batting average batted 6th every game
Bill from NYC Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Trent did not outplay JP last year PERIOD. Of course he did. He was much better. 5, or even 4 wins as a starter is a couple of years worth for Losman. Instead of tossing infield practice or throwing 30 yards in altitude sideline quick outs that wound up in the seats, Edwards sustained drives, this as a rookie. Do you think that Jauron benched JP for no reason? Please be serious. I did the exact same thing that you are doing now. I watched RJ, saw his talent, and was convinced that he would be a great quarterback. I readily admit this, and I was flat out wrong. It doesn't work in itself. It takes more than raw talent to quarterback an NFL Team. Otherwise, Ryan Leif and Jeff George would be in the Hall of Fame instead of Len Dawson and Joe Montana. Forget about JP. He is second rate. At least Trent has a chance to be a winner. I like his odds myself. GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Adam Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Of course he did. He was much better. 5, or even 4 wins as a starter is a couple of years worth for Losman. Instead of tossing infield practice or throwing 30 yards in altitude sideline quick outs that wound up in the seats, Edwards sustained drives, this as a rookie. Do you think that Jauron benched JP for no reason? Please be serious. I did the exact same thing that you are doing now. I watched RJ, saw his talent, and was convinced that he would be a great quarterback. I readily admit this, and I was flat out wrong. It doesn't work in itself. It takes more than raw talent to quarterback an NFL Team. Otherwise, Ryan Leif and Jeff George would be in the Hall of Fame instead of Len Dawson and Joe Montana. Forget about JP. He is second rate. At least Trent has a chance to be a winner. I like his odds myself. GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK, JP Losman and Rob Johnson are not comparable. Johnson flat out sucked coming out of college and had the same flaws that killed him in the pros. Johnson couldn't even organize the huddle on a key drive, JP Losman helped engineer critical fourth quarter drives. Did Trent outplay JP at times- absolutely. Did JP outplay Trent at times- absolutely. Neither QB is fully developed, and both will continue to develop at their own pace- not Jauron's and not the fans' pace either. The fact is that 2007 was one season- some guys are up and some are down. We were too optomistic about JP last year at this time and we are too down on him now. Neither would be capable of getting this team to playoffs this season- not even if they were fully developed. Our talent pool is what really is second rate.
Dawgg Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Wow, the Dawgg with a positive Bills post. I know, right? Since I actually kind-of agreed with with you, I took some extra time to evaluate whether or not I was actually being objective or if I was just blindly spewing optimism, as you have done each and every offseason that preceded abysmally mediocre football by the Bills.
Bill from NYC Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 OK, JP Losman and Rob Johnson are not comparable. Sure they are, except that RJ had better touch, and was more accurate. JP is actually better at getting the ball away; where he throws it is another sad issue.
Kelly the Dog Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Are you suggesting that 80% of being an NFL QB is throwing a long ball on a rope? What are these 'personality' traits that you suggest need 'changing?' What physical limitations have hindered his development? You mean scrambling ability? Arm strength? GO BILLS!!! IMO, after watching every play and pass he made, in pre-season and the regular season, Trent Edwards did one thing very, very well. It's a very important thing, and some quarterbacks cannot and do not ever do it. But it's still one thing. And that one thing made people here assume WAY more than that one thing, because it showed a quality of other essential things, and because the vast majority of rookies coming into the league do not show that one thing so quickly, or so well. But that one thing is less than 20% of quarterbacking to me, hence the 80% comment. To me, 80% was a conservative estimate not an over estimate. That one thing is as follows: Trent Edwards showed a great ability to walk into a game, call a play from the sidelines, step up to the line, look at the defense before the snap, decide where he is likely going to go with the ball, take the snap, drop back, quickly set up and make a quick decision (he had already made) and throw a very nice looking short pass usually right into the WRs arms. That's what he did, and he did it very well. But that's also MOST of what he did well. What people extrapolated from that, was the dreaded "poise" word, because most young QBs cannot do that so quickly if ever. It's not something Losman is as good as Edwards is at 4 years later. It shows potential to be a very good quarterback in this league because that is one of the hardest things to do. But it's still less than 20% to me about the job of quarterbacking. POISE is something you show when THERE IS A RUSH not when you take a three step drop and immediately throw the ball. That shows poise for a rookie at that one thing, but that one thing does not translate to what poise really means for a quarterback, which is handling the rush and handling the plays late in the game. When Edwards WAS rushed hard he looked VERY pedestrian the entire season. When he was asked to go deep or throw hard intermediate routes, he rarely looked good doing it. He looked good a couple times, in fact, he looked fabulous a couple times. But the vast, vast majority of his passes more than 15 yards in the air were very average to me. He didn't look well late in the game, with very minimal exceptions. He didn't handle the rush well. He didn't really READ defenses except pre-snap. That is a HUGE thing, but it is stil less than 50% of what reading defenses means and he didn't show a capacity for that at all. He dumped the ball off far too quickly whenever the rush came and usually it gained a few yards before we punted. That isn't reading defenses the way people attribute that trait to him. He simply didn't do it that well, that much. He didn't show the capacity to make huge plays. He didn't put points on the board. He did throw inopportune INTs at the end of the game. He didn't avoid the rush with an ability to scramble very well. He is VERY stubborn in the pocket, which is totally noble and he shows he's fearless, but it will get him killed in the NFL worse than it got him killed in college where he was killed by being stubborn in the pocket. It's the reason I will bet anyone he gets hurt this year and misses games. It's not because he isn't tough, he's enormously tough, he's just not smart in the pocket when it comes to sensing and avoiding hits. So all those things in the last four paragraphs make up the 80% of what he hasn't shown very much at all to me. A lot of it CAN be learned and a lot of it is very hard to be learned. I am not saying he can't ever do those other things but he hasn't shown he can do them yet at all at this level. The fact that he can throw a long ball for a completion once does not mean he has the arm strength to be a solid quarterback in this league. He has to show he can do that consistently. He has a chance to be very good in this league. OF COURSE I KNOW HE WAS A ROOKIE. But he hasn't shown most of those actual traits that make QBs very good in this league. He has consistently shown only one of them. It's a big one, without doubt. But it's only one.
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