C.Biscuit97 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 One of the biggest knocks on Trent Edwards coming into his first full season as a starter has been his arm strength. Obviously, he doesn't have a cannon like Losman. But I believed his arm strength is pretty good and not nearly as bad as some make it out. So I did some research and thought the results were pretty interesting. Here are the stats of Tom Brady's 1st and 3rd seasons as a starter (his 2nd and 4th season as a NFL); Peyton Manning's rookie season; and JP Losman's 1st season as a starter (his 2nd season): In 2001, Brady (his 2nd season) completed 32 passes of 20+ yards out of 413 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/...56&season=2001). That is a percentage of 8%. In 2002, Brady (his 3rd season) completed 37 passes of 20+ yards out of 601 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/...56&season=2002). That percentage is 6%. In 1998, Peyton Manning (rookie season) completed 42 passes of 20+ yards out of 575 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/peytonman...97&season=1998). That's a percentage of 7%. Losman (2nd season) completed 15 passes of 20+ yards out of 228 attempted. That percentage is 6% (http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losma...29&season=2005). Trent Edwards (rookie season) completed 21 passes of 20+ yards out of 269 attempted. That percentage is 8% (http://www.nfl.com/players/trentedwa...s?id=EDW720778). So basically, Edwards had the best % of 20+ yard passes of any of those guys mention (he tied Brady once). In no way am I suggesting that Edwards will ever be Manning or Brady. But I think right now, that should pretty much kill this stupid arm strength reason for several reasons: 1) Manning and Brady both improved as deep passers as their careers progressed. So perhaps, and this is nuts I know, Edwards could improve??? 2) Brady's first few seasons showed you can win by so called "dinking and dunking" down the field. As the players and his knowledge of the game progressed, Brady began taking more shots down the field. 3) Besides Lee Evans, there are no major threats in the passing game. Hopefully, Hardy can at least keep defense more honest in their coverage. 4) Finally, arm strength can only take you so far. A lot of QBs with cannons for arm couldn't make it in this league. Jeff Garcia throws like a girl, yet has taken 3 different teams to the playoffs and has been a multiple pro bowler. So I propose letting this Edwards' lack of arm strength talk die down. I feel very cormfortable with TE under center and I'm looking for some big improvements to this offense. 3)
Wraith Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 In 2001, Brady (his 2nd season) completed 32 passes of 20+ yards out of 413 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/...56&season=2001). That is a percentage of 8%. In 2002, Brady (his 3rd season) completed 37 passes of 20+ yards out of 601 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/...56&season=2002). That percentage is 6%. In 1998, Peyton Manning (rookie season) completed 42 passes of 20+ yards out of 575 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/peytonman...97&season=1998). That's a percentage of 7%. Losman (2nd season) completed 15 passes of 20+ yards out of 228 attempted. That percentage is 6% (http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losma...29&season=2005). Trent Edwards (rookie season) completed 21 passes of 20+ yards out of 269 attempted. That percentage is 8% (http://www.nfl.com/players/trentedwa...s?id=EDW720778). I'd check your stats. There is no way that anyone attempted 413 passes longer than 20 yards in a single season.
kota Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 The people who say Trent Edwards doesn't have arm strength is because they are comparing it to JP. JP has an exceptionally strong arm. He probably has one of the strongest arms in the NFL. Comparing Trent's arm to JP's is apples to oranges if you ask me. You would be better off comparing Trent's Arm to the rest of the QB's in the NFL. I will admit first time i saw Trent throw the ball i was like "WTF is that". His release looks weird to me but after watching him it looks weird because has a very quick release. Because he is so quick with it it looks like he isn't putting anything into it. Brett Favre has the same quick release so it looks similar. I am confident that Trent can hit Lee Evans in stride 50-60 yards down the field.
John from Riverside Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 There is something else that isn't being talked about when comes to the arm strength of these QB's Did anyone ever stop to think that Losman just didn't develop as a QB BECAUSE of his cannon? Think about it for a minute......when you have that kind of deep throw that is what you are going to do and not develop the rest of your game as much. TE has good zip on short to intermediate level throws....he can make all of them but he seems to have worked on his underneath throws as well because he needed to. He also is not a scrambler like JPL so it forces him to sit in the pocket and make his reads....and have a quick release. When you lack a certain something you work on other parts of your game to make up for it. To me this is why Edwards appears to have a better mental focus on the field.
Flbillsfan#1 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 When you say 20 + yard pass are you talking about the ball being in the air for at least 20 yards or plays that gain 20 + yards, such as the ball was thrown 10 yards & the receiver ran for 12 yards after the catch? In any event, arm strength comes into play in the Ralph when the WINDS are blowing. I am not worried about Trent being able to throw the ball 20 or 30 yards in nice weather. What concerns me is his ability to throw the ball in BAD weather. Thus far he hasn't shown he can deliver when conditions are poor.
agilen Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 I'd check your stats. There is no way that anyone attempted 413 passes longer than 20 yards in a single season. I think he meant that the quarterback had 413 attempts, and 32 of them were completions for 20+ yards. I was as confused as you when I read this...I'd like to see what percentage of 20+ yard attempts were completions.
K-9 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Anyone questioning TE's arm strength is nit-picking at best. At BEST. Here's the cut to the chase rebuttal for the doubters: he's not an NFL starter if he CAN'T make all the throws. Period. End of story. And he has the quickest release I've seen in a while. That is a HUGE factor in getting balls out ON TIME and to the receivers IN TIME. So while he has a 'weaker' arm than JP the ball STILL gets to the receivers just as quickly. Kelly had a strong arm, but he wasn't up there with JP either. JP has RARE arm strength. Elway type rarity as a matter of fact. ALL the scouts were enamored with it. GO BILLS!!!
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 As a layman personally, for me, the Trent arm-strength issue was dealt with in the Miami game. After he tossed that bomb to Evans for a 70+ yard TD, I thought to myself "Well, that's certainly not a noodle arm." J.P. does have an exceptionally strong arm, however, he looked like he was underthrowing some balls last year on long routes (Evans in the Jets game, for example). I am looking forward to what Edwards will bring to the table this year.
K-9 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 When you say 20 + yard pass are you talking about the ball being in the air for at least 20 yards or plays that gain 20 + yards, such as the ball was thrown 10 yards & the receiver ran for 12 yards after the catch? In any event, arm strength comes into play in the Ralph when the WINDS are blowing. I am not worried about Trent being able to throw the ball 20 or 30 yards in nice weather. What concerns me is his ability to throw the ball in BAD weather. Thus far he hasn't shown he can deliver when conditions are poor. Have you watched much football at the Ralph and Rich Stadium in the past? EVERY strong-armed QB from Namath to Elway who happened to play a game there when the winds were gusting had the same issues. As did our own Saint Kelly. I've seen stronger armed QBs throw passes that literally made abrupt right hand turns like a bullet from Ricochet Rabbit's pistol. I've seen passes STOP and just drop to the ground when a sudden gust came up. You need to stand at field level when the winds are SWIRLING to understand. If you're basing your entire opinion of Edwards' ability to throw in bad weather on the Giants, Cleveland games from last year then I suggest you dig out some tapes from when Kelly played in similar conditions. I'm not talking cold, rain, or snow, I'm talking wind gusts of up to 40 mph. Or better yet, ask Kelly himself. GO BILLS!!!
hit and marshawn Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 I think if you look at his deep passes last year he had a little bit more of a learning curve than JP in trying to adjust to the speed on these throws.There was a 3 week stretch, I remember, where he had lee open deep, and the first time he over threw him, then under threw him, then he hit him in stride in that miami game i believe it was. He has a good arm, and will be just fine once he gets the timing down on that pass
Flbillsfan#1 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Have you watched much football at the Ralph and Rich Stadium in the past? EVERY strong-armed QB from Namath to Elway who happened to play a game there when the winds were gusting had the same issues. As did our own Saint Kelly. I've seen stronger armed QBs throw passes that literally made abrupt right hand turns like a bullet from Ricochet Rabbit's pistol. I've seen passes STOP and just drop to the ground when a sudden gust came up. You need to stand at field level when the winds are SWIRLING to understand. If you're basing your entire opinion of Edwards' ability to throw in bad weather on the Giants, Cleveland games from last year then I suggest you dig out some tapes from when Kelly played in similar conditions. I'm not talking cold, rain, or snow, I'm talking wind gusts of up to 40 mph. Or better yet, ask Kelly himself. GO BILLS!!! I agree it's the wind that plays havoc with the ball. Back in the day Kelly had much more success at Rich than opposing QB's on windy days because he understood the winds there & had the arm strength to deliver the ball in a tight spiral on a rope rather than loop the ball with a high arch. This will be Trent's 2nd year to play in Buffalo, I hope he has learned something about the winds there & plays better than last year in poor conditions. He will have 1 game with guaranteed good conditions in Dec - TORONTO, who knows what the weather will be like the rest of the games?
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 20, 2008 Author Posted June 20, 2008 When you say 20 + yard pass are you talking about the ball being in the air for at least 20 yards or plays that gain 20 + yards, such as the ball was thrown 10 yards & the receiver ran for 12 yards after the catch? In any event, arm strength comes into play in the Ralph when the WINDS are blowing. I am not worried about Trent being able to throw the ball 20 or 30 yards in nice weather. What concerns me is his ability to throw the ball in BAD weather. Thus far he hasn't shown he can deliver when conditions are poor. Don't have the stats on far the ball travelled in the air, but does it really matter??? Part of being a QB is getting the ball to right guy. Receivers and rbs are the playmakers. If you make a correct read to them and get it to them with room to run, that's a successful play. If TE farts the football out of his butt and it goes 5 yards to Lynch who runs for 40 yards, that's a successful play right? Plus, in regards to the point about the weather, can we all agreed that no QB played well in those games? Eli Manning fumbled 7 times and Derek Anderson (a pro bowler) threw for like 10 more yards than TE. I'm really not gonna take a rookie from Stanford to task for those games.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 20, 2008 Author Posted June 20, 2008 I think he meant that the quarterback had 413 attempts, and 32 of them were completions for 20+ yards. I was as confused as you when I read this...I'd like to see what percentage of 20+ yard attempts were completions. you're right, sorry if it wasn't more clear. I wish I had the stats on passes of 20+ yard attempts, but I don't.
Beerball Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 'K-9' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:39 AM' Anyone questioning TE's arm strength is nit-picking at best. At BEST. Oh Here's the cut to the chase rebuttal for the doubters: he's not an NFL starter if he CAN'T make all the throws. Period. End of story. Oh And he has the quickest release I've seen in a while. That is a HUGE factor in getting balls out ON TIME and to the receivers IN TIME. Oh So while he has a 'weaker' arm than JP the ball STILL gets to the receivers just as quickly. Oh Kelly had a strong arm, but he wasn't up there with JP either. JP has RARE arm strength. Elway type rarity as a matter of fact. ALL the scouts were enamored with it. Oh
SuperKillerRobots Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 When you say 20 + yard pass are you talking about the ball being in the air for at least 20 yards or plays that gain 20 + yards, such as the ball was thrown 10 yards & the receiver ran for 12 yards after the catch? In any event, arm strength comes into play in the Ralph when the WINDS are blowing. I am not worried about Trent being able to throw the ball 20 or 30 yards in nice weather. What concerns me is his ability to throw the ball in BAD weather. Thus far he hasn't shown he can deliver when conditions are poor. That's a great and often over-looked point in the debate about Edwards' arm strength. I think any QB in the NFL, at least those not named Pennington, can throw the ball 60 yards in the air in a dome while standing. The question is can they throw a spiral on a 15 yard out pattern in 30 mph winds and not have the ball float? This is the pretinent question for the Bills.
berndogg Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 One of the biggest knocks on Trent Edwards coming into his first full season as a starter has been his arm strength. Obviously, he doesn't have a cannon like Losman. But I believed his arm strength is pretty good and not nearly as bad as some make it out. So I did some research and thought the results were pretty interesting. Here are the stats of Tom Brady's 1st and 3rd seasons as a starter (his 2nd and 4th season as a NFL); Peyton Manning's rookie season; and JP Losman's 1st season as a starter (his 2nd season): In 2001, Brady (his 2nd season) completed 32 passes of 20+ yards out of 413 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/...56&season=2001). That is a percentage of 8%. In 2002, Brady (his 3rd season) completed 37 passes of 20+ yards out of 601 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/...56&season=2002). That percentage is 6%. In 1998, Peyton Manning (rookie season) completed 42 passes of 20+ yards out of 575 attempted (http://www.nfl.com/players/peytonman...97&season=1998). That's a percentage of 7%. Losman (2nd season) completed 15 passes of 20+ yards out of 228 attempted. That percentage is 6% (http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losma...29&season=2005). Trent Edwards (rookie season) completed 21 passes of 20+ yards out of 269 attempted. That percentage is 8% (http://www.nfl.com/players/trentedwa...s?id=EDW720778). So basically, Edwards had the best % of 20+ yard passes of any of those guys mention (he tied Brady once). In no way am I suggesting that Edwards will ever be Manning or Brady. But I think right now, that should pretty much kill this stupid arm strength reason for several reasons: 1) Manning and Brady both improved as deep passers as their careers progressed. So perhaps, and this is nuts I know, Edwards could improve??? 2) Brady's first few seasons showed you can win by so called "dinking and dunking" down the field. As the players and his knowledge of the game progressed, Brady began taking more shots down the field. 3) Besides Lee Evans, there are no major threats in the passing game. Hopefully, Hardy can at least keep defense more honest in their coverage. 4) Finally, arm strength can only take you so far. A lot of QBs with cannons for arm couldn't make it in this league. Jeff Garcia throws like a girl, yet has taken 3 different teams to the playoffs and has been a multiple pro bowler. So I propose letting this Edwards' lack of arm strength talk die down. I feel very cormfortable with TE under center and I'm looking for some big improvements to this offense. 3) Another thing you have to take into consideration is fairchild's play calling. He really didn't let him air it out. Some would say that he was letting the kid gain some confidence by completing short passes, but I think it would've been better to let him air it out on 3rd and 10+ and see what he can do instead of going to a draw/screen play. Hopefully Trent will have more of a chance to prove himself under turk.
MRW Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Don't have the stats on far the ball travelled in the air, but does it really matter??? Part of being a QB is getting the ball to right guy. Receivers and rbs are the playmakers. If you make a correct read to them and get it to them with room to run, that's a successful play. If TE farts the football out of his butt and it goes 5 yards to Lynch who runs for 40 yards, that's a successful play right? But isn't that directly relevant to the argument you're making here? It's not an argument for Trent's arm strength if he completes a 45 yard pass of which 40 yards were YAC. Let's not move the goalposts.
K-9 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 That's a great and often over-looked point in the debate about Edwards' arm strength. I think any QB in the NFL, at least those not named Pennington, can throw the ball 60 yards in the air in a dome while standing. The question is can they throw a spiral on a 15 yard out pattern in 30 mph winds and not have the ball float? This is the pretinent question for the Bills. That would be the pertinent question for EVERY NFL team! I strongly doubt the QB has EVER existed that could throw a 15 yard out in a 30 mph cross-wind and NOT have it move in a way it shouldn't. The two strongest armed QBs I've ever seen personnally, James Harris and John Elway, were just as ineffective in high-wind conditions as any other QB. It's a lot harder to throw an out pattern in high winds, especially at the Ralph where they tend to swirl sideline to sideline, than it is any other route so they would try to compensate by throwing it even harder which just messed up the pass even more. There are just gonna be some days where you know going in you're not going to be able to throw the ball as planned. There have been LOTs of games over the years like that at the Ralph (Rich). GO BILLS!!!
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