Democracy in Decline

[Chilly]

Saw this article on RCP this morning, figured it was interesting enough to post and start a discussion on.

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...in_decline.html

[olivier in france]

Saw this article on RCP this morning, figured it was interesting enough to post and start a discussion on.

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...in_decline.html

 

 

I don't agree with his view on the Irish vote.

But i can understand his point.

 

But it's an old issue... from the "democratic" Terror following the french Revolution, to the democratic elections of Hitler and Mussolini or even daily unpopular decisons made by governments ... What are the limits of democracy? Should elected governments take decisions that 'd be rejected by the voters if a vote was made? Can democracies alter or lower human rights because they are democracies? Should democraties use popular referendums and votes as often as possible?

Is the voice of the people sacred in a democracy?

 

Personally i consider human rights and freedoms much more important than democratic rules. i vote about once a year. I use my rights and liberties daily.

[pBills]

God bless the Irish people.

[olivier in france]

God bless the Irish people.

 

for what?

 

I don't consider that 1% of the european voters blocking a reform is a "victory for democracy"

 

But those idiots in Bruxells are the worst sellers possible Europe could find ... That treaty should be adopted or rejected by a referendum made in all EU countries the same day. Like that the european peoples 'd actually vote with the treaty in mind and not national issues like the irish people did (or the dutch or french a few years ago...)

[/dev/null]

I don't consider that 1% of the european voters blocking a reform is a "victory for democracy"

 

Do you consider 50+% of Irish voters choosing to keep their country out of a treaty they feel is not in their best interest a victory for democracy?

 

The Irish may only make up 1% of EU voters but they make up 100% of Ireland's

[olivier in france]

Do you consider 50+% of Irish voters choosing to keep their country out of a treaty they feel is not in their best interest a victory for democracy?

 

The Irish may only make up 1% of EU voters but they make up 100% of Ireland's

 

yes but doing that they keep all countries out of the treaty... This is not their fault and i don't blame them... but this is not a victory for democracy at all!

[/dev/null]

this is not a victory for democracy the EUat all!

 

Corrected

 

Irish Democracy 1

EU 0

 

Game, set, match

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

His contention that Chinese "communism" is working better than American democratic capitalism is a crock. The only reason the Chinese economy is growing faster than ours is the fact that they're smart enough to keep the government out of the way of industry. Here we have restrictive labor laws, environmental regulations and other niceties (OSHA) to contend with. It puts us at a competitive disadvantage vis-a-vis the Chinese.

[PastaJoe]

His contention that Chinese "communism" is working better than American democratic capitalism is a crock. The only reason the Chinese economy is growing faster than ours is the fact that they're smart enough to keep the government out of the way of industry. Here we have restrictive labor laws, environmental regulations and other niceties (OSHA) to contend with. It puts us at a competitive disadvantage vis-a-vis the Chinese.

 

So you'd like to go back to the pre-union 19th century practices of no labor or environmental laws, and to hell with the worker's health and safety. I've heard firsthand accounts from engineers who have had to go to China to support manufacturing that was moved from the U.S. seeing workers with no protective equipment dumping barrels of toxic chemicals down the water drains as a routine practice. Instead of lowering our standards, our government should be pushing for higher standards in other countries, and the companies that have moved their factories from here to there but still enjoy the legal protections of the U.S. should be held accountable.

[Chilly]

His contention that Chinese "communism" is working better than American democratic capitalism is a crock. The only reason the Chinese economy is growing faster than ours is the fact that they're smart enough to keep the government out of the way of industry. Here we have restrictive labor laws, environmental regulations and other niceties (OSHA) to contend with. It puts us at a competitive disadvantage vis-a-vis the Chinese.

 

The way I read it was that it wasn't his contention, he was pointing out that the people in China feel that way, and are happy with the communist regime, with no desire to aspire for Democracy (like we in the West tend to believe everyone wants).

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

So you'd like to go back to the pre-union 19th century practices of no labor or environmental laws, and to hell with the worker's health and safety. I've heard firsthand accounts from engineers who have had to go to China to support manufacturing that was moved from the U.S. seeing workers with no protective equipment dumping barrels of toxic chemicals down the water drains as a routine practice. Instead of lowering our standards, our government should be pushing for higher standards in other countries, and the companies that have moved their factories from here to there but still enjoy the legal protections of the U.S. should be held accountable.

 

Good luck with that. Let me know how that turns out for you.

[Endzone Animal]

Fascinating column, and one that I think accurately shows the world increasingly moving away from democracy and capitalism in favor of appointed rulers and collectivism. Perhaps Marx was correct when he said democracy was just a stepping stone to communism. Even in America, the historic bastion of anti-collectivism and representative democracy, laws are more and more being written by appointed judicial fiat rather than elected legislature, socialism has gradually supplanted capitalism as the dominant economic model, and the word profit has frequently come to be considered a pejorative.

 

As a fiscal and social conservative I find these trends loathsome, but I am a realist and will need to adapt to succeed regardless of the changes - no matter how objectionable I may personally find them. I am pessimistic about the politcal future of my values and beliefs, but optimistic that people who believe as I do are resourseful enough to overcome this "progressive" decay.

[olivier in france]

Fascinating column, and one that I think accurately shows the world increasingly moving away from democracy and capitalism in favor of appointed rulers and collectivism. Perhaps Marx was correct when he said democracy was just a stepping stone to communism. Even in America, the historic bastion of anti-collectivism and representative democracy, laws are more and more being written by appointed judicial fiat rather than elected legislature, socialism has gradually supplanted capitalism as the dominant economic model, and the word profit has frequently come to be considered a pejorative.

 

As a fiscal and social conservative I find these trends loathsome, but I am a realist and will need to adapt to succeed regardless of the changes - no matter how objectionable I may personally find them. I am pessimistic about the politcal future of my values and beliefs, but optimistic that people who believe as I do are resourseful enough to overcome this "progressive" decay.

 

you're right in many ways... but what's wrong with those theories, is that most socialists consider capitalism as a rival dogma... Capitalism is not a dogma. The first rule of capitalism is to adapt to its environment. That's why it succeeds so well even in China... Democracy may suffer but in our globalised world capitalism will stay the only efficient economic model.