Sisyphean Bills Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Very true. But all of this discussion then more or less tells us that Hardy had better work out and be a monster, because nothing else seems to have changed much; same OL, same QB, same RB (or worse if Lynch is in trouble), same TEs for the most part, same FB. Well, the truth is that nothing much has changed on offense. It's mostly the same players as last year with a few minor changes. The system is supposedly going to be the same, but with more variety and a new, unproven play caller. As others have said, some players might improve over last year. And, of course, some can and likely will regress. (I can't tell you how many times I thought the Bills OL in the Kelly era would finally gel and put it together only to see them regress and flail through the first half of the season.) To answer others questions: Trent must improve because he was becoming less and less effective as he piled up more starts and defenses became aware of how to defend him and the Bills offense. I know he gets a pass as a rookie, but his rookie season was a downward heading curve. If he regresses and continues to struggle, the Bills could be an offensive train wreck in 08 and more gasoline goes on to the QB controversy -- something nobody should really want to see. I just don't see a rookie receiver making that kind of difference to lift this offense much more than maybe a few spots in the rankings offensively. And even if he does, how much will it impact our scoring? I mean we made fewer trips to the red zone than 30 other teams. Who knows what Hardy's impact will be, but the odds are against a rookie WR coming in and turning what is an anemic and ineffective passing offense into a scoring machine. He may have the physical tools, but he doesn't have the experience and understanding of how to beat NFL pass defenses. It seems that the master blueprint being followed by the brain trust at 1 Bills Drive is to stack the defense with a sort of "defense wins championships" cliche strategy. The defense and special teams will put the ball in position for scoring chances (field goals). The offense just needs to minimize mistakes.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Well, the truth is that nothing much has changed on offense. It's mostly the same players as last year with a few minor changes. The system is supposedly going to be the same, but with more variety and a new, unproven play caller. As others have said, some players might improve over last year. And, of course, some can and likely will regress. (I can't tell you how many times I thought the Bills OL in the Kelly era would finally gel and put it together only to see them regress and flail through the first half of the season.) To answer others questions: Trent must improve because he was becoming less and less effective as he piled up more starts and defenses became aware of how to defend him and the Bills offense. I know he gets a pass as a rookie, but his rookie season was a downward heading curve. If he regresses and continues to struggle, the Bills could be an offensive train wreck in 08 and more gasoline goes on to the QB controversy -- something nobody should really want to see. Who knows what Hardy's impact will be, but the odds are against a rookie WR coming in and turning what is an anemic and ineffective passing offense into a scoring machine. He may have the physical tools, but he doesn't have the experience and understanding of how to beat NFL pass defenses. It seems that the master blueprint being followed by the brain trust at 1 Bills Drive is to stack the defense with a sort of "defense wins championships" cliche strategy. The defense and special teams will put the ball in position for scoring chances (field goals). The offense just needs to minimize mistakes. I agree with most of this post except the bolded part. I just hate that people keep harping on the last 3 games of the season. 2 were in some of the worst weather the Bills have ever played in and one was without Peters and Evans for a half. In fact before a monsoon hit against the Giants (how did the Super Bowl MVP look in that game), Edwards was lighting up the Super Bowl champs with 2 tds and 150+ yards passing.
krazykat Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Same QB? Wrong. Edwards was a rookie last year and won't be this year. That's a big change right there. Then there's the OC, who actually played the game and who can't be any worse than Fairchild (seriously). At TE, I think that Schouman will open a lot of eyes. And Hardy's size and speed will force opposing teams to pay attention to him. Edwards was horrible last year. In most of his games he didn't even throw one TD and the team scored very few TDs with him in there. Granted, it's tough to be worse than Fairchild, but when he got here everyone had the same hopes that they have for Schonert, and honestly, I don't see too much of a difference in the credentials or prior experience of either. You may "think that Schouman will open a lot of eyes," but the fact is that he didn't last year, so you're thinking that is hardly concrete promise. As to Hardy, what speed? He's not known as a speed player. In fact it's the opposite. He's known as a slow receiver that's big and can catch OTM in traffic and has good hands although the reports out OTAs were that he was dropping a lot of passes. The knock on him is that he won't be able to separate from DBs in the NFL, is not a great route runner, won't be a threat in the deep game, and despite his size isn't very physical.
krazykat Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Do you really think that Trent will be the same quarterback? If so, why? The kid is young and smart. I see no reason not to expect some improvement. No, but he wasn't good last year. If he had been half way decent, then there might be hope that he turns into an average QB this season. He had one good game, against the Dolphins. After that in eight other starts he had only 3 TDs and the offense in general had only one or two more total. That doesn't even come close to mediocre much less anything to build one's hopes on. I would say at least.
krazykat Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Well, the truth is that nothing much has changed on offense. It's mostly the same players as last year with a few minor changes. The system is supposedly going to be the same, but with more variety and a new, unproven play caller. As others have said, some players might improve over last year. And, of course, some can and likely will regress. (I can't tell you how many times I thought the Bills OL in the Kelly era would finally gel and put it together only to see them regress and flail through the first half of the season.) To answer others questions: Trent must improve because he was becoming less and less effective as he piled up more starts and defenses became aware of how to defend him and the Bills offense. I know he gets a pass as a rookie, but his rookie season was a downward heading curve. If he regresses and continues to struggle, the Bills could be an offensive train wreck in 08 and more gasoline goes on to the QB controversy -- something nobody should really want to see. Who knows what Hardy's impact will be, but the odds are against a rookie WR coming in and turning what is an anemic and ineffective passing offense into a scoring machine. He may have the physical tools, but he doesn't have the experience and understanding of how to beat NFL pass defenses. It seems that the master blueprint being followed by the brain trust at 1 Bills Drive is to stack the defense with a sort of "defense wins championships" cliche strategy. The defense and special teams will put the ball in position for scoring chances (field goals). The offense just needs to minimize mistakes. That's a very fair assessment, but even the defense has risks with it. I mean if Mitchell plays like he did in KC that's not going to be good. Who knows with Johnson. Stroud should be fine, but what if his post-surgery and injury issues arise again? Our defense wasn't good either last year.
krazykat Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 I agree with most of this post except the bolded part. I just hate that people keep harping on the last 3 games of the season. 2 were in some of the worst weather the Bills have ever played in and one was without Peters and Evans for a half. In fact before a monsoon hit against the Giants (how did the Super Bowl MVP look in that game), Edwards was lighting up the Super Bowl champs with 2 tds and 150+ yards passing. Why don't you itemize for us with statistics, both for Edwards and the offense, and games that Edwards started, which games you thought that both he and the offense played well in and why?
Adam Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 You think it will be enough to propel us to playoff caliber? No I don't. We are too far behind New England, Indianapolis, Cleveland, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville and possibly Houston to make playoffs. We have a very exploitable weakness at center and at WR/TE. If the running backs don't improve in picking up the blitz, there is another weakness. Trent is a solid young QB, but he is at a point where most QB's slump. Improvement this year will be gauged by forward progress, not wins and losses- we may be a better team by probably fall short of last year's record. I'm ok with that, player development is a marathon, not a sprint. If I think we are better than last year, I will be happy
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Why don't you itemize for us with statistics, both for Edwards and the offense, and games that Edwards started, which games you thought that both he and the offense played well in and why? Dude if you thought a rookie QB would come in and just light up the league, then you are pretty delusional. The only QBs to do that are Big Ben (who had a great supporting cast and run game) and Marino. All rookie QBs struggle. In fact, Edwards matches up quite well with a lot of rookies in recent years. Plus, Edwards was thrown into the fire because of a combo of Wilfork and Losman regressing. If you wanna be negative and bash the guy, I guess that's your business. But a lot of fans could see a guy who played fairly well give the circumstances and it is reasonable to think he may improve this season.
R. Rich Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 No, but he wasn't good last year. If he had been half way decent, then there might be hope that he turns into an average QB this season. Nice try. I'll save the mob some time here.... He had one good game, against the Dolphins. After that in eight other starts he had only 3 TDs and the offense in general had only one or two more total. That doesn't even come close to mediocre much less anything to build one's hopes on. I would say at least. [Typical response from some "diehard homer who knows it all", ala Randy Quaid in the Major Leauge movies...] Well, he had Fairchild as coordinator and Jauron as head coach, and they both suck. So does Levy as GM. If they listened to me, the Bills would have 9 Lombardi trophies now. Go Bills!
krazykat Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Dude if you thought a rookie QB would come in and just light up the league, then you are pretty delusional. The only QBs to do that are Big Ben (who had a great supporting cast and run game) and Marino. All rookie QBs struggle. In fact, Edwards matches up quite well with a lot of rookies in recent years. Plus, Edwards was thrown into the fire because of a combo of Wilfork and Losman regressing. If you wanna be negative and bash the guy, I guess that's your business. But a lot of fans could see a guy who played fairly well give the circumstances and it is reasonable to think he may improve this season. Aside from not answering the question, I haven't been negative at all, have I. I'm just asking questions as I can see it. Some pretty thin skin here to react that way to questions. And what does it say when you offer no evidence other than "you say so?" Should we all bow to your personal wealth of information in spite of your lack of ability to substantiate any of it? It's one thing for a QB to put up some numbers, play consistently, and go through typical growing pains, but even if Edwards doubles his output on a game by game basis, it would still leave 12 games with no TDs. Otherwise I don't believe I've bashed him unless simply referring to his play can be considered bashing him. I mean if I tell you that Lee Evans didn't catch 1,000 yards worth of passes or hit 10 TDs, am I being negative?
krazykat Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 No I don't. We are too far behind New England, Indianapolis, Cleveland, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville and possibly Houston to make playoffs. We have a very exploitable weakness at center and at WR/TE. If the running backs don't improve in picking up the blitz, there is another weakness. Trent is a solid young QB, but he is at a point where most QB's slump. Improvement this year will be gauged by forward progress, not wins and losses- we may be a better team by probably fall short of last year's record. I'm ok with that, player development is a marathon, not a sprint. If I think we are better than last year, I will be happy Do you see a potential conflict of interests at all between Jauron's need to win each and every game regardless of the longterm cost to the team and what you just said?
krazykat Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Nice try. I'll save the mob some time here.... [Typical response from some "diehard homer who knows it all", ala Randy Quaid in the Major Leauge movies...] Well, he had Fairchild as coordinator and Jauron as head coach, and they both suck. So does Levy as GM. If they listened to me, the Bills would have 9 Lombardi trophies now. Go Bills! Does Schonert suck at OC? The correct answer is that we don't know. None of us does. What are the odds though that an OC that is a first time OC is a good one? And do we have a new head coach this year? I would imagine that if they had listened to most fans they would be further along than they are now.
VOR Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Edwards was horrible last year. In most of his games he didn't even throw one TD and the team scored very few TDs with him in there. Again he was a rookie. I can't say that he was great, but he seemed to impress more than a few NFL types. Whether that means he'll prove to be a great QB I don't know, but he should be better. Granted, it's tough to be worse than Fairchild, but when he got here everyone had the same hopes that they have for Schonert, and honestly, I don't see too much of a difference in the credentials or prior experience of either. I was unimpressed by the elevation of Schonert. That is, until he enumerated the problems with Fairchild's offense. Which happened to be things that had been discussed here and elsewhere. You may "think that Schouman will open a lot of eyes," but the fact is that he didn't last year, so you're thinking that is hardly concrete promise. Before he got hurt, Schouman opened my eyes. But if you want concrete promises here, or in life, you're expecting too much. As to Hardy, what speed? He's not known as a speed player. In fact it's the opposite. He's known as a slow receiver that's big and can catch OTM in traffic and has good hands although the reports out OTAs were that he was dropping a lot of passes. The knock on him is that he won't be able to separate from DBs in the NFL, is not a great route runner, won't be a threat in the deep game, and despite his size isn't very physical. Hardy has 4.45 speed and is 6'6" tall. That's a tough assignment for most CB's. Whether Hardy is actually thrown-to, he commands extra attention. As for the reports that he was dropping a lot of passes, the only place I heard that was from Paul Hamilton, whose reports are specious at best.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Aside from not answering the question, I haven't been negative at all, have I. I'm just asking questions as I can see it. Some pretty thin skin here to react that way to questions. And what does it say when you offer no evidence other than "you say so?" Should we all bow to your personal wealth of information in spite of your lack of ability to substantiate any of it? It's one thing for a QB to put up some numbers, play consistently, and go through typical growing pains, but even if Edwards doubles his output on a game by game basis, it would still leave 12 games with no TDs. Otherwise I don't believe I've bashed him unless simply referring to his play can be considered bashing him. I mean if I tell you that Lee Evans didn't catch 1,000 yards worth of passes or hit 10 TDs, am I being negative? Actually, I did attempt to answer the question by providing context. If Edwards had his season or JP's season and he was entering his 5th year in the league, I'd want him on the bench. However, he is entering his second. And I think Edwards played well against the Jets, Fins, Ravens (still a great defense), and made some great throws to rally us against an emotionally charged Redskins team. Considering we don't have a receiving threat besides Evans and Te wasn't even supposed to play, I think that is a nice start to a NFL QB's career. Sometimes you gotta look past the stats.
Adam Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Do you see a potential conflict of interests at all between Jauron's need to win each and every game regardless of the longterm cost to the team and what you just said? What I said there was fact- and Jauron needs to try to put our inferior team in the best possible position to compete every week. It is not his fault if the team is not good enough to win those games.
obie_wan Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Improvement this year will be gauged by forward progress, not wins and losses- we may be a better team by probably fall short of last year's record. I'm ok with that, player development is a marathon, not a sprint. If I think we are better than last year, I will be happy and then the coach gets fired and you start all over again with the new coach's favorite players and schemes
Adam Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 and then the coach gets fired and you start all over again with the new coach's favorite players and schemes I don't think Jauron will be fired anytime soon. Wilson is smarter than those who want DJ gone
stuckincincy Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 I don't think Jauron will be fired anytime soon. Wilson is smarter than those who want DJ gone I don't think Wilson is inclined to pay off a HC contract while there is essentially a sold-out stadium.
Chilly Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 OK then, the $10,000 question; With a line ranked 21st and unchanged from last season, with an emerging QB that everyone rants about, with "Beastmode", why did our offense score fewer TDs than any other team in the league last season? The biggest problem was the lack of any balance of offense last year. The passing offense was just miserable for a number of reasons: rookie QB struggling to find his way in the NFL, a sub-par group of receivers struggling to get open, and a playbook focused on protecting that rookie QB. This would lead to defenses stacking the box, putting much higher pressure on the OL, taking away the strength, and daring the offense to make them pay a few times by taking advantage of blitzes - something the Bills abomination of a passing offense couldn't do.
Sisyphean Bills Posted June 21, 2008 Posted June 21, 2008 What I said there was fact- and Jauron needs to try to put our inferior team in the best possible position to compete every week. It is not his fault if the team is not good enough to win those games. If it is not Jauron's fault in year 3 of his master plan, who's fault is it? Who else has had a major say in who the Bills have drafted and brought in the past 3 years? Who else chose the systems, kept the inferior players, hired the coaching staff? Let's say that there was a team stocked with excellent talent and the coaching staff was holding it back by not adapting to the strengths of the team, lacking in cajones, or otherwise just not taking advantage of opportunities or putting the team in the best position to win? How would you be able to know the difference between that and a team with poor talent that was coached by a genius? Bottom line: who knows if it is the players or the coaches at this point. This team is very young. They really haven't had success to this point. Jauron has been a head coach for 8 years and an NFL coach for 22 years and has had very little sustained success other than when he was Tom Coughlin's DC -- one miracle filled year with the Bears doesn't count as sustained success. If you want to believe that Jauron is a gifted football coach -- a "genius" in the jargon du jour -- and his only problem has been that he has never had any say in or ability to change the environment of the team he leads, that's fine with me. However, I don't buy it for a second. To be a great coach is to be a great leader. To be a great leader is to demonstrate superior leadership ability. That means getting the utmost out of situations that present themselves and the flexibility to adapt on-the-fly in dynamic situations. The suggestion that a great leader would both tolerate an environment of ineptness, be it from his reports, peers, or superiors, and also be portrayed in the mantle of a helpless victim is, well, incoherent. I hope that Jauron is the leader some have envisioned him to be and that he is developing the skills and assets of his players, his staff, the scouting department, the front office, and his bosses. I understand that he's a nice guy and would do anything for his guys, but sometimes great leadership requires a bit of the rod as well as the carrot. I don't think Jauron will be fired anytime soon. Wilson is smarter than those who want DJ gone FWIW, I am not one that "just wants Jauron gone" and understand that if he leaves it would be another setback in what is becoming a long era of major setbacks for the Buffalo Bills. I'd much prefer that he abruptly blossoms into this genius coach many believe in/are hopeful for and that he takes the Bills over the hump to dynasty status. But he has no track record of doing so. It's good to be optimistic, but not to the point of kidding oneself.
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