Scouts Inc. Fantasy O-Line rankings

[Bill from NYC]

What did Rich think of Mike Williams?

 

I don't remember, but I thought that he was a fat right tackle with a history of a bad ankle. McKinnie and Jones were there. He was a dumb pick by any standards. RTs don't go that early. It never happens, and this is no accident.

 

 

I like what I saw from Greer, but I don't know if I could say he'll ever be an elite CB.  Same for McGee.  I don't believe Clements was either.  Youboty has done almost nothing and Will James is older and has been injury-prone.  On the other hand, the Bills really like Dockery and Butler, so Albert would have been a complete luxury pick, unless as I alluded to, he could play center.

 

Blockers are not luxury picks. They are the foundation of football teams. First round defensive backs are luxury picks when you play in Buffalo. The time frame of the Bills failure to focus on both lines directly coincided with its playoff drought. This should be easy enough for any rational Bills Fan to see. They focused on dbs way more than most teams with their earliest draft picks, and let them walk away to free agency. Other early picks were wasted on gadget players and Magahee, who was injured for almost a 1 1/2 years before he played at all.

It really is staring you right in the face my friend.

[ax4782]

Oh, the irony! If Walker had been picked-up by the Fins or Jets, you'd be talking about how 2006 was meaningless and that his performance with either of those teams in 2007 is what mattered most. Not dissimilar to a week ago were telling us how Reggie Torbor was a great pickup for the Fins, versus Kawika Mitchell, using stats to backup your argument for Mitchell being a bust, yet ignoring Torbor's worse stats. Then you mentioned Jake Long, who has NO stats in the NFL, as an upgrade for their O-line, just because he was the 1st overall pick, as if that means anything.

 

Look, you'd be taken more seriously if you could remain consistent and not inadvertently read the wrong stats/make stuff up (whichever it is). Or say "well if this were the Fins or Jets..." You seem to make some good points on occasion, but you go out of your way to bash everything the Bills do.

 

I think you said it best. Statistics only matter to some people on the board when they go to prove what they want them to prove. The fact that Walker had excellent stats for us last year and ML had very solid stats running to the right, that doesn't mean anything. What matters is that he sucked for the Raiders the year before. Forget what he did in Buffalo last year when he played with other talented lineman who could pick up their share of the load. That doesn't matter. He sucks because he was bad in Oakland with potentially the worst set of linemates in the league. But hey, that doesn't matter.

 

And, krazykat, the point I made about Schonert was never answered. Why was he out of the NFL? You clearly seem to think that his absence was relevant, so why don't you share the secret. Was it because he was a bad coach or was there some other non-football related reason? Of course those people who don't like him merely point to those facts and ignore what he has done here. The fact is in 2007 Losman was pulled because he didn't play well. I think the injury probably set him back and I don't think that the QB carousel was much help to his confidence. That being said, I like how for some people the decision to pull JP was Jauron's, but then here it was Schonert's. Who's was it really? Whoever the convenient victim is apparently.

[Bill from NYC]

I think you said it best. Statistics only matter to some people on the board when they go to prove what they want them to prove. The fact that Walker had excellent stats for us last year and ML had very solid stats running to the right, that doesn't mean anything. What matters is that he sucked for the Raiders the year before. Forget what he did in Buffalo last year when he played with other talented lineman who could pick up their share of the load. That doesn't matter. He sucks because he was bad in Oakland with potentially the worst set of linemates in the league. But hey, that doesn't matter.

 

And, krazykat, the point I made about Schonert was never answered. Why was he out of the NFL? You clearly seem to think that his absence was relevant, so why don't you share the secret. Was it because he was a bad coach or was there some other non-football related reason? Of course those people who don't like him merely point to those facts and ignore what he has done here. The fact is in 2007 Losman was pulled because he didn't play well. I think the injury probably set him back and I don't think that the QB carousel was much help to his confidence. That being said, I like how for some people the decision to pull JP was Jauron's, but then here it was Schonert's. Who's was it really? Whoever the convenient victim is apparently.

 

I agree with you wrt Walker. As far as Schonert, I hope that he is a great OC. We need him to be, but he seems to have been an assistant that nobody wanted, hired by a coach that nobody wanted, who was hired by a GM that nobody wanted.

 

Whatever...GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[R. Rich]

Rich played OL, and he is telling us how good this kid can be. I believe him, whereas he has been right so many times on this board in terms of who can block.

 

I guess technically I did.....in middle school. In high school, I played OLB and TE (only for a year and a half, thankfully; I couldn't stand playing offense). In college, it was strictly OLB.

 

I don't think I do anything special, other than try to really pay attention to the individual abilities of the players instead of just reading the box scores to tell who "had a good game" or not. Many others on the board watch the game as I do.

[R. Rich]

Would Albert have been a viable center candidate for the Bills? Because I don't see him as an NFL OT, and the Bills seem happy with Dockery (not that he'd get benched at what he's making) and Butler.

 

As I said earlier, I think Albert can make a pretty good OT in the pros, but I believe he could be an all pro caliber guard also. Still, if he plays @ tackle, I do not believe he'll embarrASS himself @ all.

[VOR]

Blockers are not luxury picks. They are the foundation of football teams. First round defensive backs are luxury picks when you play in Buffalo. The time frame of the Bills failure to focus on both lines directly coincided with its playoff drought. This should be easy enough for any rational Bills Fan to see. They focused on dbs way more than most teams with their earliest draft picks, and let them walk away to free agency. Other early picks were wasted on gadget players and Magahee, who was injured for almost a 1 1/2 years before he played at all.

It really is staring you right in the face my friend.

Forget the past 8 years, which is another discussion entirely. I'm talking about now. Would adding Albert and his utility in maybe 4 bad weather games a year be worth more than a CB who can be used in all of them? Would Albert have been a significant enough upgrade over Butler to have warranted passing-over McKelvin?

[R. Rich]

What did Rich think of Mike Williams? I don't know, I'm just asking.

 

 

Going by what we had @ the time, I didn't think it was a horrible pick. Sure, he was a RT in college, but he was still the blindside protector of LEFTY Chris Simms. I didn't think he would have as much difficulty transitioning to the pros as it turned out that he did though.

[krazykat]

good thing we picked up the TE that helped him pile up those 10.5 sacks.

LOL

 

There's always the chance that he got those all by himself though. LOL

 

Funny thing is that if we didn't already have a starting TE then people here would be raving about him too.

[krazykat]

And, krazykat, the point I made about Schonert was never answered. Why was he out of the NFL? You clearly seem to think that his absence was relevant, so why don't you share the secret. Was it because he was a bad coach or was there some other non-football related reason? Of course those people who don't like him merely point to those facts and ignore what he has done here. The fact is in 2007 Losman was pulled because he didn't play well. I think the injury probably set him back and I don't think that the QB carousel was much help to his confidence. That being said, I like how for some people the decision to pull JP was Jauron's, but then here it was Schonert's. Who's was it really? Whoever the convenient victim is apparently.

Come on, you post relatively intelligently, don't start being a dope now.

 

What do you think it would mean?

 

Perhaps that no one really wanted him? I mean after his initial years in Tampa, seems as if he simply had a bunch of one-year stints everywhere until we picked him up, naturally.

 

I'm not even gonna adddress this any further. It's pretty plain that if we hadn't hired him he'd probably be coaching HS football by now.

[keepthefaith]

Come on, you post relatively intelligently, don't start being a dope now.

 

What do you think it would mean?

 

Perhaps that no one really wanted him? I mean after his initial years in Tampa, seems as if he simply had a bunch of one-year stints everywhere until we picked him up, naturally.

 

I'm not even gonna adddress this any further. It's pretty plain that if we hadn't hired him he'd probably be coaching HS football by now.

 

No problem. Come September all of the coaches and players can show what they've got and have the opportunity to answer answer any lingering doubts from the past.

[Pyrite Gal]

I don't remember, but I thought that he was a fat right tackle with a history of a bad ankle. McKinnie and Jones were there. He was a dumb pick by any standards. RTs don't go that early. It never happens, and this is no accident.

 

At the risk of appearing to defend the pick of Williams when the simple reality is that the was a huge bust who really showed with his performances that he lacked the character to play NFL ball. It horrible to imagine he was picked that high when he had no talent, but even worse he actually showed he did have some talent which led to him:

 

1. playing OK but not great his first year and it was this that actually led to a reasonable sense of excitement by some Bills fans that his play improved at a level normal for a rookie in his second year that he actually would show some real ability to be a solid starter in his second year. One actually lets Williams off to easy to claim that the problem was that he could not play and the Bills braintrust simply was not good enough to see it. Based on his physical performance in college guarding the blindside of a left-handed QB on his lonesome and based on some nice agility showing in static tests at the Combine it was actually not unreasonable at all to think that he could make the jump from RT to LT.

 

2. Even after his play fell apart after the death of his grandmother who raised him, he actually with good coaching application of sticks (he publicly called him out with the threat to move him to G from the bigger payday slot of tackle) and carrots (he awarded him a gameball after he logged a sack free game against a good RDE) by JMac he looked like his play might revive and Bills fans were hopeful entering MWs last year here. However, it was not the Bills coaches who picked him but MWs failures himself not to step up for his teammates and himself that is the bad thing here.

 

You are correct that a team does not pick an RT at #4. Rather than simplistically indicting them for his weird idea it is obvious that the Bills braintrust had every intention of flipping him from RT to LT as quickly as they could. The failure of the Vinky, GW and TD was not a strategic one of drafting their hoped to be RT at #4. Their failure was choosing a player who proved to be mentally incapable of surviving a tough life challenge to not let down the city that drafted him.

 

I think it is too facile to pretend that anyone with half a brain would have picked McKinnie (also a stunning disappointment as a player or Evans (a surprise to even most professional observers) over MW with the info one had going into the draft.

 

This does not excuse the braintrust at the time and I think that JMacs handling of MW was actually quite impressive but ultimately a failure.

[krazykat]

No problem. Come September all of the coaches and players can show what they've got and have the opportunity to answer answer any lingering doubts from the past.

 

That's right, but the real question is if we don't do well, what will be the excuses that people here continue to make instead of finally recognizing wat's really wrong and placing the blame where it belongs.

[VOR]

That's right, but the real question is if we don't do well, what will be the excuses that people here continue to make instead of finally recognizing wat's really wrong and placing the blame where it belongs.

Here's a question for you: given what transpired last year, do you think the Bills underperformed, overperformed, or did about what you expected?

[krazykat]

Here's a question for you: given what transpired last year, do you think the Bills underperformed, overperformed, or did about what you expected?

Let me ask you first, what do you think and why?

[obie_wan]

As I said earlier, I think Albert can make a pretty good OT in the pros, but I believe he could be an all pro caliber guard also. Still, if he plays @ tackle, I do not believe he'll embarrASS himself @ all.

 

yeah- but we aleready have those studs Matt Murphy and Kirk Chambers at OT.

 

Where would the roster spot come from if they had drafted Albert?

[VOR]

Let me ask you first, what do you think and why?

Actually, I asked first. When you give the answer the question I first posed, I'll give you my response.

[Pyrite Gal]

Actually, I asked first. When you give the answer the question I first posed, I'll give you my response.

I will take a cut at this since I think this is actually THE question in order to get at how legit it is for people to be disappointed or not with last year's performance.

 

First off, the reality is that the performance was was 7-9 and the Bills missed the playoffs AGAIN. On an absolute basis this was horrendous and a real disappointment for a Bills fan. That's the facts.

 

The question however of HOW disappointing and how easy or difficult to bear these facts were comes down to the question of whether they IMHO:

 

1. Fought the good fight and did the best they could given the slings and arrows of reality (for example when Wade unilaterally surrendered one year saying we had no real chance at the playoffs even though we not mathematically eliminated. A Colts team which had the same record whom we played in one of the remaining games did in fact make the playoffs despite several teams being ahead of us- this was not fighting the good fight and I expect my team to do that).

 

2. All teams have good and bad breaks which actually do make the difference who wins and who loses sometimes over-ruling actual talent. The key for how well I (and I think most fans) bear the disappointment is if the bad breaks were of our own making or simply befell us. (example, if the refs mess up the coin flip I probably give my team a pass for losing a game in OT they actually should have lost in regulation based on my talent guess, however, when we lost the Home-Run Throw, I felt this was an unlikely bad break which we could have prevented by the simple act of players staying in their lanes and the team itself deserves a lot of grief for mishandling its salary cap so that they had to cut vets who might have stayed in their ST lanes). The breaks make a difference in how I feel.

 

3. Future prospects make a difference. If we lose and see little prospect for improvement disappointment is harder to deal with.

 

Overall, I felt that 7-9 was a disappointing record for us in 07 but it was a disappointment I can deal with well because:

 

1. The team did not give up on itself and actually remained truly mathematically possible for the playoffs until late in the season.

 

2. The simple fact is that we had more players on IR than any other team in the NFL. These injuries seemed to be a random mounting series of bad breaks (literally in some cases as events like fractures to Pos or Kevin Everett's spinal injuries would not have been prevented with more stretching or better preparation. Though individual game failures like the Dallas debacle should have been avoided, Dallas was a better team and the game was entertaining. We beat a better Skins team when Jauron keeping it close allowed us to take advantage of an unusual Joe Gibbs miscue. Sometimes you get the bear and sometime the bear gets you.

 

3. I like our prospects for the future. Some key player and youngsters need to step up, but we have a chance.

 

Overall, it was disappointing to lose last year but the team really produced a record which was consistent with the difficult to control breaks of the game and the future is uncertain but looks positive.

 

The bottom-line is I think a reasonable fan feels bad about the result but not as bad (and even quite good) about the effort.

[R. Rich]

yeah- but we aleready have those studs Matt Murphy and Kirk Chambers at OT.

 

Where would the roster spot come from if they had drafted Albert?

 

 

Such sarcasm. How I despise sarcasm.

 

 

Actually, if OL was in the cards for a first round pick and I was the GM, I probably would've looked to get a good RT prospect (maybe Cherilus or even Otah) and then move Walker inside to guard, where I believe his talents are better suited.

[krazykat]

Actually, I asked first. When you give the answer the question I first posed, I'll give you my response.

Can't do. I asking for this for a reason, not simply to get you to lay out your reasons first. So go ahead. I'll be right behind you.

 

Actually at Wegmans right now, I should get back when I get home late tonight.

[keepthefaith]

I will take a cut at this since I think this is actually THE question in order to get at how legit it is for people to be disappointed or not with last year's performance.

 

First off, the reality is that the performance was was 7-9 and the Bills missed the playoffs AGAIN. On an absolute basis this was horrendous and a real disappointment for a Bills fan. That's the facts.

 

The question however of HOW disappointing and how easy or difficult to bear these facts were comes down to the question of whether they IMHO:

 

1. Fought the good fight and did the best they could given the slings and arrows of reality (for example when Wade unilaterally surrendered one year saying we had no real chance at the playoffs even though we not mathematically eliminated. A Colts team which had the same record whom we played in one of the remaining games did in fact make the playoffs despite several teams being ahead of us- this was not fighting the good fight and I expect my team to do that).

 

2. All teams have good and bad breaks which actually do make the difference who wins and who loses sometimes over-ruling actual talent. The key for how well I (and I think most fans) bear the disappointment is if the bad breaks were of our own making or simply befell us. (example, if the refs mess up the coin flip I probably give my team a pass for losing a game in OT they actually should have lost in regulation based on my talent guess, however, when we lost the Home-Run Throw, I felt this was an unlikely bad break which we could have prevented by the simple act of players staying in their lanes and the team itself deserves a lot of grief for mishandling its salary cap so that they had to cut vets who might have stayed in their ST lanes). The breaks make a difference in how I feel.

 

3. Future prospects make a difference. If we lose and see little prospect for improvement disappointment is harder to deal with.

 

Overall, I felt that 7-9 was a disappointing record for us in 07 but it was a disappointment I can deal with well because:

 

1. The team did not give up on itself and actually remained truly mathematically possible for the playoffs until late in the season.

 

2. The simple fact is that we had more players on IR than any other team in the NFL. These injuries seemed to be a random mounting series of bad breaks (literally in some cases as events like fractures to Pos or Kevin Everett's spinal injuries would not have been prevented with more stretching or better preparation. Though individual game failures like the Dallas debacle should have been avoided, Dallas was a better team and the game was entertaining. We beat a better Skins team when Jauron keeping it close allowed us to take advantage of an unusual Joe Gibbs miscue. Sometimes you get the bear and sometime the bear gets you.

 

3. I like our prospects for the future. Some key player and youngsters need to step up, but we have a chance.

 

Overall, it was disappointing to lose last year but the team really produced a record which was consistent with the difficult to control breaks of the game and the future is uncertain but looks positive.

 

The bottom-line is I think a reasonable fan feels bad about the result but not as bad (and even quite good) about the effort.

 

I think the front office has done a good job the last couple years upgrading the talent and at some positions in dire need. This is a young team that might be a darned good one in a couple years if the coaches can develop the players and schemes and the front office keeps the key free agents and continues to add talent. The coaching staff has enough to work with now IMO to move the team forward in the W-L category. Anything less than 9-7 to me would reflect poorly on the coaches.