Scouts Inc. Fantasy O-Line rankings

[VOR]

I think it's relevant in a discussion about Walker. Someone can't just lay out the assertion that he was a solid run blocker amidst evidence to the contrary and then follow it up with someone saying "AHHH, that's irrelevant" in spite of the fact that I realize that's how business is conducted here.

I didn't have Fargas' splits in 2006 before. Now I do. Might want to look at them again (as well as 2005): http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/spli...&sYear=2006

 

And I realize how a certain subset of fans here do business; by making stuff up.

And while you chastise their coaching, you ignore ours. Let me ask you, what was Schonert doing in 2002?

 

How about 2004?

 

Any guesses?

Fair enough.

[krazykat]

I didn't have Fargas' splits in 2006 before. Now I do. Might want to look at them again (as well as 2005): http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/spli...&sYear=2006

 

And I realize how a certain subset of fans here do business; by making stuff up.

 

Fair enough.

You didn't answer the Schonert question, what was he doing in those years?

 

On Fargas, please believe me when I say that I wasn't trying to slide something past you. I apparently inadvertantly looked at his '07 stats.

 

However, you think that 3.9 ypc "right side" was impressive?

 

And then please explain how Fargas managed to then get 4.2 ypc the following season "right side" with Cornell Green (ever heard of him) a career backup, starting in Walker's place?

 

What's your explanation there? Here's Green's page:

 

http://www.nfl.com/players/cornellgreen/profile?id=GRE133269

 

Over half of his NFL starts in an 8-year career were last year for the sucky 4-12 Raiders with one of the worst offenses in the league last year albeit ahead of us in most categories.

 

And while you're at it, can you possibly explain how/why our O actually got significantly worse from '06 to '07, same OC, in fact, same OC with yet another year of experience and after having added Walker, who's good by your standards, and Dockery, who is clearly even better than Walker. Can you explain why in '06 we as a team logged 27 total offensive TDs and 9 rushing TDs while in '07 we logged only 20 total offensive TDs and 8 rushing TDs while out of the other side of your mouth you insist that our rushing game got better?

 

And why the decrease in stats with the addition of Walker and Dockery? OK, so spare us the Fairchild sucked garbage as it would seem to me that simply by adding Dockery and Walker, assuming each is as good as you will strongly suggest if not staunchly insist, that alone would have and should have overcome anything so wretched that Fairchild could possibly have done. I mean it's not as if we were ranked 4th in the league in offense with only downward to move or anything. We sucked in '06 too leaving us little more room for downward movement, but hey, we sure did it by about 30%.

 

 

Then when you're all done with you explanations, please reconcile that with what you were saying about fans here making stuff up.

[ax4782]

You didn't answer the Schonert question, what was he doing in those years?

 

On Fargas, please believe me when I say that I wasn't trying to slide something past you. I apparently inadvertantly looked at his '07 stats.

 

However, you think that 3.9 ypc "right side" was impressive?

 

And then please explain how Fargas managed to then get 4.2 ypc the following season "right side" with Cornell Green (ever heard of him) a career backup, starting in Walker's place?

 

What's your explanation there? Here's Green's page:

 

http://www.nfl.com/players/cornellgreen/profile?id=GRE133269

 

Over half of his NFL starts in an 8-year career were last year for the sucky 4-12 Raiders with one of the worst offenses in the league last year albeit ahead of us in most categories.

 

And while you're at it, can you possibly explain how/why our O actually got significantly worse from '06 to '07, same OC, in fact, same OC with yet another year of experience and after having added Walker, who's good by your standards, and Dockery, who is clearly even better than Walker. Can you explain why in '06 we as a team logged 27 total offensive TDs and 9 rushing TDs while in '07 we logged only 20 total offensive TDs and 8 rushing TDs while out of the other side of your mouth you insist that our rushing game got better?

 

And why the decrease in stats with the addition of Walker and Dockery? OK, so spare us the Fairchild sucked garbage as it would seem to me that simply by adding Dockery and Walker, assuming each is as good as you will strongly suggest if not staunchly insist, that alone would have and should have overcome anything so wretched that Fairchild could possibly have done. I mean it's not as if we were ranked 4th in the league in offense with only downward to move or anything. We sucked in '06 too leaving us little more room for downward movement, but hey, we sure did it by about 30%.

 

 

Then when you're all done with you explanations, please reconcile that with what you were saying about fans here making stuff up.

 

You keep citing to what Schonert was doing in 02 and 04. Who gives a sh-t what he was doing then. You are trying to insinuate that he must be a terrible coach or something because he was not in football for those two years. Maybe. But since you don't know why he wasn't coaching, you probably shouldn't rush to judgment either. And by the way, it was under Schonert that JP had his best year and showed significant improvement in 06' he looked good early on in the pre-season of 07 as well, and was hurt early in the season. He hadn't looked good in the first two games, but why is that suddenly Schonert's fault? Isn't that terrible offense more the product of SF than anything that Schonert did or didn't do to help JP improve? IIRC there were many people who thought that JP was going to be the most improved player at the QB position due to the improvements in the quality of his game, and attributed that to the coaching staff? Seems to me like Schonert did his job, and that Fairchild was the one who couldn't get his head out of his ass.

 

As to Walker, look at his stats from last year again. Look particularly at the number of sacks he gave up and look at Marshawn's numbers running to the right hand side. I think you'll find that Walker did a pretty good job. The fact that some guy in Oakland in a totally different scheme with significantly different line, played well has nothing to do with whether or not Walker is a solid RT in Buffalo. You can't take his performance in Oakland and say, well, he was bad there in a terrible offense where the OL was atrocious in every aspect of the game, and use that to say that his performance here was bad. It simply wasn't. He might not have been the best RT in the game, but he wasn't even close to the worst. You don't have to have the best OLman at every position to have a good O-Line. You need solid, above average players at all five positions for that to happen and the Bills are close to that. Fowler is the weak link on this line and even he isn't terrible. He will be replaced next year and at that point, the OL will be excellent. You can disagree but the statistics don't lie.

[VOR]

You didn't answer the Schonert question, what was he doing in those years?

I said "fair enough," meaning point well-taken.

 

On Fargas, please believe me when I say that I wasn't trying to slide something past you. I apparently inadvertantly looked at his '07 stats.

That was my second guess.

 

However, you think that 3.9 ypc "right side" was impressive?

No, but it wasn't the lowest of his career and wasn't even low compared to the left side; it was the same. Maybe Fargas was just bad that year? He's a marginal starter at best.

[dave mcbride]

I think it's relevant in a discussion about Walker. Someone can't just lay out the assertion that he was a solid run blocker amidst evidence to the contrary and then follow it up with someone saying "AHHH, that's irrelevant" in spite of the fact that I realize that's how business is conducted here.

 

And while you chastise their coaching, you ignore ours. Let me ask you, what was Schonert doing in 2002?

 

How about 2004?

 

Any guesses?

 

 

 

Thanks. Unfortunately I haven't taken the time to note yours because they're (everyone's) are simply too voluminous. But we can go dig them up if need be.

My understanding is that the Raiders ran for something like 4.37 yds/carry in 2006 behind the right tackle, their highest average along the line.

[krazykat]

You keep citing to what Schonert was doing in 02 and 04. Who gives a sh-t what he was doing then. You are trying to insinuate that he must be a terrible coach or something because he was not in football for those two years. Maybe. But since you don't know why he wasn't coaching, you probably shouldn't rush to judgment either. And by the way, it was under Schonert that JP had his best year and showed significant improvement in 06' he looked good early on in the pre-season of 07 as well, and was hurt early in the season. He hadn't looked good in the first two games, but why is that suddenly Schonert's fault? Isn't that terrible offense more the product of SF than anything that Schonert did or didn't do to help JP improve? IIRC there were many people who thought that JP was going to be the most improved player at the QB position due to the improvements in the quality of his game, and attributed that to the coaching staff? Seems to me like Schonert did his job, and that Fairchild was the one who couldn't get his head out of his ass.

 

As to Walker, look at his stats from last year again. Look particularly at the number of sacks he gave up and look at Marshawn's numbers running to the right hand side. I think you'll find that Walker did a pretty good job. The fact that some guy in Oakland in a totally different scheme with significantly different line, played well has nothing to do with whether or not Walker is a solid RT in Buffalo. You can't take his performance in Oakland and say, well, he was bad there in a terrible offense where the OL was atrocious in every aspect of the game, and use that to say that his performance here was bad. It simply wasn't. He might not have been the best RT in the game, but he wasn't even close to the worst. You don't have to have the best OLman at every position to have a good O-Line. You need solid, above average players at all five positions for that to happen and the Bills are close to that. Fowler is the weak link on this line and even he isn't terrible. He will be replaced next year and at that point, the OL will be excellent. You can disagree but the statistics don't lie.

OK, I'll play along;

 

Then why did Schonert and Fairchild pull JP? And please don't tell me that Schonert had nothing to do with the decision.

 

How about his other QBs coached, which ones did much? Or is that immaterial now too as to how good he may be?

 

Yes, you can take his performance in Oakland and have it mean something. To insist otherwise is asinine. You also can't compare the two offenses. In ours last year the team kid-gloved Edwards in every way imagineable in order to see to it that he would sustain minimal pressure while that obviously wasn't the case in Oakland. More to come there as they lower the barriers a little bit this season.

 

Edwards wasn't sacked all that much last year strictly because reducing pressure on him was a stated goal of the team prior to the season beginning.

 

And if it's fair game to come down on another coach for having "missed time" then it's fair in the same discussion to come down on ours.

 

And what's with all the fairyland approach to analyzing this team?

[krazykat]

No, but it wasn't the lowest of his career and wasn't even low compared to the left side; it was the same. Maybe Fargas was just bad that year? He's a marginal starter at best.

And it damn sure wasn't good.

[krazykat]

My understanding is that the Raiders ran for something like 4.37 yds/carry in 2006 behind the right tackle, their highest average along the line.

3.9 according to the stats.

 

Or don't those stats stand now?

 

What about his 10.5 sacks allowed? Relevant?

 

I should actually know better than to ask that last one. Of course it's not, here. Now if we were discussing the Fins or Jets it would be the only stat that mattered though.

[obie_wan]

3.9 according to the stats.

 

Or don't those stats stand now?

 

What about his 10.5 sacks allowed? Relevant?

 

I should actually know better than to ask that last one. Of course it's not, here. Now if we were discussing the Fins or Jets it would be the only stat that mattered though.

 

good thing we picked up the TE that helped him pile up those 10.5 sacks.

[biglukes]

Miami's O-line is ahead of the Bills'? LOL!

The Jake Long hype machine. They have the number one over all pick so he must be good, and his greatness will rub off on the rest of that line.

[dave mcbride]

3.9 according to the stats.

 

Or don't those stats stand now?

 

What about his 10.5 sacks allowed? Relevant?

 

I should actually know better than to ask that last one. Of course it's not, here. Now if we were discussing the Fins or Jets it would be the only stat that mattered though.

?? When did I ever say that he was a good pass blocker.

 

And 4.39 and 9th overall according to football outsiders, whose stats I trust more than anyone else's:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2006.php

 

p.s. Note that Buffalo went from 27th in 06 runnnig behind RT to 6th in 2007.

[VOR]

And it damn sure wasn't good.

Neither was the performance of the entire O-line, as well as their offense. To pin it all on Walker is silly, at best.

 

Again, I couldn't care less what he did in Oakland. If the Patriots had taken that viewpoint, they never would have traded for Moss, period.

[VOR]

I should actually know better than to ask that last one. Of course it's not, here. Now if we were discussing the Fins or Jets it would be the only stat that mattered though.

Oh, the irony! If Walker had been picked-up by the Fins or Jets, you'd be talking about how 2006 was meaningless and that his performance with either of those teams in 2007 is what mattered most. Not dissimilar to a week ago were telling us how Reggie Torbor was a great pickup for the Fins, versus Kawika Mitchell, using stats to backup your argument for Mitchell being a bust, yet ignoring Torbor's worse stats. Then you mentioned Jake Long, who has NO stats in the NFL, as an upgrade for their O-line, just because he was the 1st overall pick, as if that means anything.

 

Look, you'd be taken more seriously if you could remain consistent and not inadvertently read the wrong stats/make stuff up (whichever it is). Or say "well if this were the Fins or Jets..." You seem to make some good points on occasion, but you go out of your way to bash everything the Bills do.

[R. Rich]

The Jake Long hype machine. They have the number one over all pick so he must be good, and his greatness will rub off on the rest of that line.

 

 

While their fans might brag on Long, I don't think many football insiders would praise him as the greatest lineman of all time. Long will probably be a very effective right tackle, but I just don't believe he'll be as effective playing on the left side @ this point in his career. While I don't think he'll struggle like Robert Gallery did, I also don't believe he'll make the seamless transition that Joe Thomas made last year. Thomas may be just a year or so away from being lauded as the best tackle in football along w/ Jason Peters. There were some who cited Ryan Clady as a better prospect due to his athleticism and long arms (even though he's got the rep as not being physical enough). Personally, I think Branden Albert has huge upside. I think he'll be a pretty good OT if that's in the cards for him. I also think that if he's moved inside to guard, he could become one of the very best @ the position.

[Bill from NYC]

Personally, I think Branden Albert has huge upside. I think he'll be a pretty good OT if that's in the cards for him. I also think that if he's moved inside to guard, he could become one of the very best @ the position.

 

Do you think that McCorner will be one of the best CBs of all time?

[obie_wan]

Do you think that McCorner will be one of the best CBs of all time?

 

maybe, but by that time he will be playing for someone else

[VOR]

Do you think that McCorner will be one of the best CBs of all time?

Would Albert have been a viable center candidate for the Bills? Because I don't see him as an NFL OT, and the Bills seem happy with Dockery (not that he'd get benched at what he's making) and Butler.

[Bill from NYC]

Would Albert have been a viable center candidate for the Bills? Because I don't see him as an NFL OT, and the Bills seem happy with Dockery (not that he'd get benched at what he's making) and Butler.

 

This isn't what I was getting at. Rich played OL, and he is telling us how good this kid can be. I believe him, whereas he has been right so many times on this board in terms of who can block.

 

As you know, we drafted yet another first round defensive back. I don't know....are the Bills unhappy with Greer and McGee? Is Youboty a bust? My point is that if there is a blocker out there who really might be one of the best in the game, you might want to take him, especially if you play in cold weather, and passing is at times a non-issue. If you are the 77 Raiders, or the Cowboys of the early 90s, I guess you go for the corner.

[VOR]

This isn't what I was getting at. Rich played OL, and he is telling us how good this kid can be. I believe him, whereas he has been right so many times on this board in terms of who can block.

What did Rich think of Mike Williams? I don't know, I'm just asking.

 

As you know, we drafted yet another first round defensive back. I don't know....are the Bills unhappy with Greer and McGee? Is Youboty a bust? My point is that if there is a blocker out there who really might be one of the best in the game, you might want to take him, especially if you play in cold weather, and passing is at times a non-issue. If you are the 77 Raiders, or the Cowboys of the early 90s, I guess you go for the corner.

I like what I saw from Greer, but I don't know if I could say he'll ever be an elite CB. Same for McGee. I don't believe Clements was either. Youboty has done almost nothing and Will James is older and has been injury-prone. On the other hand, the Bills really like Dockery and Butler, so Albert would have been a complete luxury pick, unless as I alluded to, he could play center.

[ax4782]

Bill, normally I agree with you about a lot of things said here, but on this CB business I have to object. What was the problem with drafting a corner? Are you suggesting that after the horrible pass defense we put out on the field last year, and the fact that we struggled when we could only field one solid corner due to injuries that there wasn't a need to draft one. Most people stated that our top two needs were WR and CB and I don't mean people here. Most NFL analysts stated that. I understand your philosphy about building the lines, but Buffalo's OL and DL are actually in decent shape, not to mention the almost 178 mil in contracts the starters in those positions are currently set to recieve over the next few years.

 

McKelvin was a good pick. And, as I posted once before, Buffalo hasn't really drafted all that many first round corners. Recently, we have taken a few, but historically, we haven't really drafted all that many. Lack of depth and talent at corner last year killed us and I think it was a good decision to address that in the early rounds. There is a sharp drop in talent with CBs once you get into the middle rounds. Further, Buffalo has had good success with developing later round OL talent, and I think that Bell is going to be another one of those guys for us. Only time will tell. Not to mention that I think the Bills are likely to go OL or DL in next year's draft as we are likely to finally be able to draft for value rather than need for a change.