Scouts Inc. Fantasy O-Line rankings

[krazykat]

It has struck me for a while that given the journeyman talent and the now cut Viti being what we had at FB that the answer seemed to be more 3 WR sets and not really making the FB more than a sometimes part of our offense. I really see no answer for us with the FB talent we have on the roster to rely at all on the traditional FB mold.

Well, if that's true then, then Schonert is lying.

[ax4782]

What do you think now about the FB situation?

 

Just curious.

 

And it looks to me that you're one step closer to being wrong.

 

As to the FB situation, I don't think that much has changed. Barnes isn't Lorenzo Neal, but he is a solid run blocker, with ok hands. I think it is unfortunate that Viti got hurt, though he may be back on the PS by the end of the season. I don't think this changes much at all. The Bills will still use a true FB in the offense which should help in the running game.

 

As for me being "one step closer to being wrong" how d'you figure? Because Viti isn't going to play at FB? Seriously? Barnes is adequate for the position as it stands and I didn't think that the Bills were going to use the FB slot much in the short passing game anyway, at most 10-15 catches all season. To suggest that somehow my argument about the O improving all hinged on the FB is just ridiculous.

[krazykat]

Hardy- The least credible arguments you seem to make are the negative take you have on Hardy. Is he perfect? Nope? Do #2 WRs actually tend to produce numbers as rookies not unlike PP's last year? No they do not.

 

However, I think the summary produced on Bills' Daily about Hardy is pretty accurate IMHO > WR James Hardy Indiana 6-6, 217, 4.49 - Hardy is a tall receiver with a great reach. Gets open quickly and has good speed for his tremendous size. Can take a hit and has good hands. His size allows him to shield defensive backs from the ball. Needs to work on his route running abilities and may have trouble separating from top corners at this level. Hardy will step right in to help the red zone defense. He scored 36 touchdowns in three seasons and should be great for jump balls in the end zone. Likely a starter early in the season if not on opening day.

 

<

 

This perspective, his Combine numbers which support the view he has good speed and not the limited speed you site above, and the descriptions of his actual college games indicate to me that he should do a lot for the threat the Bills pose in the redzone and while opponents are used to facing two good WRs, they will have tough choices to make as the set their coverages, They will be virtually forced to put their tall guy or at least someone who can elevate on Hardy. If the Bills use more 3 WR sets because of their poor FB selection then Parrish has demonstrated the ability as a return guy and some surprisingly tough good work over the middle after his initial injury (he made all 16 two years in a row and improved his reception total each of his three years) the other team is virtually forced to put a fast good cover guy on the slot receiver. Now this leaves Evans who also demands speed from a DB and who now becomes difficult to double well if your tall guy and a somewhat fast guy are committed to the #2 and #3.

You too miss my points entirely. He could very well turn out like Burress. But the number of WRs that actually match even a respectable amount of their draft hype is so ridiculously low that the odds are against it. That's all. Otherwise he was a round 2/3 projection by many.

 

Here is last year's WR class for rounds 1/2/3:

 

2007 - Wide Receivers

Rd Sel # Player School Team

1 2 Calvin Johnson Georgia Tech Detroit Lions

1 9 Ted Ginn Jr. Ohio State Miami Dolphins

1 23 Dwayne Bowe Louisiana State Kansas City Chiefs

1 27 Robert Meachem Tennessee New Orleans Saints

1 30 Craig Davis Louisiana State San Diego Chargers

1 32 Anthony Gonzalez Ohio State Indianapolis Colts

2 44 Sidney Rice South Carolina Minnesota Vikings

2 45 Dwayne Jarrett USC Carolina Panthers

2 51 Steve Smith USC New York Giants

3 73 Jacoby Jones Lane Houston Texans

3 74 Yamon Figurs Kansas State Baltimore Ravens

3 75 Laurent Robinson Illinois State Atlanta Falcons

3 76 Jason Hill Washington State San Francisco 49ers

3 78 James Jones San Jose State Green Bay Packers

3 79 Mike Walker Central Florida Jacksonville Jaguars

3 80 Paul Williams Fresno State Tennessee Titans

3 99 Johnnie Lee Higgins Texas-El Paso Oakland Raiders

 

Here are the stats for last year's rookie WRs with 20+ catches and their rank (took out TEs and RBs):

 

Rank Player Team Pos Rec Yds Avg Yds/G Lng TD 20+ 40+ 1st 1st% FUM

1 Dwayne Bowe KC WR 70 995 14.2 62.2 58 5 13 2 51 72.9 0

2 Calvin Johnson DET WR 48 756 15.8 50.4 49 4 12 1 38 79.2 1

3 James Jones GB WR 47 676 14.4 42.2 79T 2 10 2 29 61.7 3

6 Anthony Gonzalez IND WR 37 576 15.6 44.3 57T 3 11 2 27 73.0 0

6 Laurent Robinson ATL WR 37 437 11.8 29.1 74T 1 5 2 14 37.8 1

9 Ted Ginn Jr. MIA WR 34 420 12.4 26.2 54 2 5 1 18 52.9 0

10 Sidney Rice MIN WR 31 396 12.8 30.5 60T 4 3 2 25 80.6 0

14 Craig Davis SD WR 20 188 9.4 13.4 18 1 0 0 12 60.0 0

 

Of 17 WRs selected in rounds 1-3, only 8 show up as having had 20 or more receptions. Of those, I would argue that four did anything significant; Bowe, Johnson, Gonzalez, and Rice. That's it of 17 WR selections in day one. Johnson was part of an aerial circus in Detroit in spite of its ineffectiveness. Gonzalez had Manning throwing to him on the Colt O.

 

It's even worse for 2006 and no new WRs stepped up in '07 either.

 

So the odds are against Hardy doing much. What that means is that there's probably less than a 25% chance that he does anything even close to what some are hoping and better than a 50% chance that he will bust. Now, the same is true for every other WR drafted in rounds 1-3 however.

[obie_wan]

You too miss my points entirely. He could very well turn out like Burress. But the number of WRs that actually match even a respectable amount of their draft hype is so ridiculously low that the odds are against it. That's all. Otherwise he was a round 2/3 projection by many.

 

Here is last year's WR class for rounds 1/2/3:

 

2007 - Wide Receivers

Rd Sel # Player School Team

1 2 Calvin Johnson Georgia Tech Detroit Lions

1 9 Ted Ginn Jr. Ohio State Miami Dolphins

1 23 Dwayne Bowe Louisiana State Kansas City Chiefs

1 27 Robert Meachem Tennessee New Orleans Saints

1 30 Craig Davis Louisiana State San Diego Chargers

1 32 Anthony Gonzalez Ohio State Indianapolis Colts

2 44 Sidney Rice South Carolina Minnesota Vikings

2 45 Dwayne Jarrett USC Carolina Panthers

2 51 Steve Smith USC New York Giants

3 73 Jacoby Jones Lane Houston Texans

3 74 Yamon Figurs Kansas State Baltimore Ravens

3 75 Laurent Robinson Illinois State Atlanta Falcons

3 76 Jason Hill Washington State San Francisco 49ers

3 78 James Jones San Jose State Green Bay Packers

3 79 Mike Walker Central Florida Jacksonville Jaguars

3 80 Paul Williams Fresno State Tennessee Titans

3 99 Johnnie Lee Higgins Texas-El Paso Oakland Raiders

 

Here are the stats for last year's rookie WRs with 20+ catches and their rank (took out TEs and RBs):

 

Rank Player Team Pos Rec Yds Avg Yds/G Lng TD 20+ 40+ 1st 1st% FUM

1 Dwayne Bowe KC WR 70 995 14.2 62.2 58 5 13 2 51 72.9 0

2 Calvin Johnson DET WR 48 756 15.8 50.4 49 4 12 1 38 79.2 1

3 James Jones GB WR 47 676 14.4 42.2 79T 2 10 2 29 61.7 3

6 Anthony Gonzalez IND WR 37 576 15.6 44.3 57T 3 11 2 27 73.0 0

6 Laurent Robinson ATL WR 37 437 11.8 29.1 74T 1 5 2 14 37.8 1

9 Ted Ginn Jr. MIA WR 34 420 12.4 26.2 54 2 5 1 18 52.9 0

10 Sidney Rice MIN WR 31 396 12.8 30.5 60T 4 3 2 25 80.6 0

14 Craig Davis SD WR 20 188 9.4 13.4 18 1 0 0 12 60.0 0

 

Of 17 WRs selected in rounds 1-3, only 8 show up as having had 20 or more receptions. Of those, I would argue that four did anything significant; Bowe, Johnson, Gonzalez, and Rice. That's it of 17 WR selections in day one. Johnson was part of an aerial circus in Detroit in spite of its ineffectiveness. Gonzalez had Manning throwing to him on the Colt O.

 

It's even worse for 2006 and no new WRs stepped up in '07 either.

 

So the odds are against Hardy doing much. What that means is that there's probably less than a 25% chance that he does anything even close to what some are hoping and better than a 50% chance that he will bust. Now, the same is true for every other WR drafted in rounds 1-3 however.

 

But - he is tall - so the fact that he can't separate from CBs and can't get off the line of scrimmage is not material

[VOR]

When I heard that Turk wanted to use a FB, I was understood it that he wanted one for short yardage/goalline situations (and I'm assuming not to always run the ball, which would have been predictable and something Fairchild would do). Not to run out of 1 HB 1 FB set on a consistent basis.

 

And the odds are useless in and of themselves. If you were to accept that there is a 75% chance that a rookie WR won't do much and as a result don't play him and miss out on something, you're doing yourself a disservice.

[VOR]

But - he is tall - so the fact that he can't separate from CBs and can't get off the line of scrimmage is not material

It's also false. If it's true, it's amazing he caught 191 passes for 36 TD's in college.

[Pyrite Gal]

Well, if that's true then, then Schonert is lying.

This fan hopes that Schonert and the whole Bills braintrust is lying to me and being quite effective at doing it. While some fans care so much about being told the truth about everything and knowing as much as they can know, this is one fan that is quite happy to have them lie to me and fool me if this means that the Bllls opponents are lied to as well. If in fact the are foolish enough to be snookered by a lie and this makes it easier for the Bills to win its a great thing IMHO,

 

The Bills winning is a lot more important to me than me being told the truth.

 

The great John Butler was not simply that he would not tell me the truth but that the team lost while carrying out his lies.

[Pyrite Gal]

Just as folks who out their faith in past statistical events draw conclusions about the present which can often be wildly wrong (for example, some folks insist that the Whitner pick was a bad one because statistically one need not draft a safety in the first seem to value this statistical truth over the fact that it is a different NFL than their granmother's league when these stats actually described reality:

 

1. In the modern NFK the safety is a far more pivotal player than in the old NFL (ex. Troy Polamalu) and in particular if your base D is the Cover 2 getting the best safety you can get is pivotal (ex. Sanders)

 

2. The greater import of the safety in the modern NFL is seen in the Whitner draft as he was not even the first safety taken in the first round and in fact not the last as a third safety was not only taken in the 1st but our archrivals the Fish took Allen at 15.

 

Yes, you are undoubtedly statistically correct about the utility of a WR taken in the draft, but one when asking why this happened it would make a lot more sense to conclude something else is going on here the Bills braintrust is simply out to lunch on this one.

 

However:

 

1. Even with the typical learning curve delay which occurs with most rookie WRs there likely is going to be an immediate benefit for Evans in the redzone as other teams will simply be forced to place their best DB at covering bigger players on Hardy in the redzone, If this good coverage guy would have dt'ed or had even taken the prime coverage responsibility then Evans will profit from Hardy's presence without Hardy even catching a pass.

 

2. The Bills had an obvious critical need for redzone improvement and getting a player who is freakishly tall who took in 30+ TD in college is quite likely to fill a different specific role than many of the players whose stats you rely on. There is no guarantee of course but one has to willfully put blinders on not to at least acknowledge that this is a significant difference which may be a good reason why the past statistical info may not determine this case. I know it may be tough for a believer in past stats to acknowledge their limitations but do you not see this as a reason why the simple past statistical recitation my not apply directly in this case? Instead you seem to make statements like the limited speed comment which actually seem to run counter to the stats produced by Hardy at the Combine.

 

3. The pick of Hardy was not a flawless piece of work as I too feel that the likelihood of a WR contributing significantly as a rookie are small and uncertain enough it puts a lot of pressure on the Hardy pick to work out. However, the solution to this problem is not necessarily picking another similarly regarded player who he odds stack up against the same as they do for Hardy but instead I would feel much better about the uncertainties regarding any 2nd round WE we could have chosen that picking yet another WR in the second or third rounds would have likely heightened this draft being a good one. Simply ragging on Hardy means little,

 

4. Any statistical analysis is pretty meaningless in terms of drawing specific conclusions (which you do not do but again any honest probability analysis needs to site how this specific draft differs from the norm) now as this draft was markedly different from past or recent talent pools. Unless you want to lay out criteria which define the talent in this draft (no WRs judged to merit a 1st, but yet tons of available WR talent which merit a second or a third this year and might have garnered a first in other drafts.

 

The risk here was not taking Hardy but in waiting until so late to take alternative Jackson.

 

We'll see but this case does not look as bleak as you seem to imply.

 

You too miss my points entirely. He could very well turn out like Burress. But the number of WRs that actually match even a respectable amount of their draft hype is so ridiculously low that the odds are against it. That's all. Otherwise he was a round 2/3 projection by many.

 

Here is last year's WR class for rounds 1/2/3:

 

2007 - Wide Receivers

Rd Sel # Player School Team

1 2 Calvin Johnson Georgia Tech Detroit Lions

1 9 Ted Ginn Jr. Ohio State Miami Dolphins

1 23 Dwayne Bowe Louisiana State Kansas City Chiefs

1 27 Robert Meachem Tennessee New Orleans Saints

1 30 Craig Davis Louisiana State San Diego Chargers

1 32 Anthony Gonzalez Ohio State Indianapolis Colts

2 44 Sidney Rice South Carolina Minnesota Vikings

2 45 Dwayne Jarrett USC Carolina Panthers

2 51 Steve Smith USC New York Giants

3 73 Jacoby Jones Lane Houston Texans

3 74 Yamon Figurs Kansas State Baltimore Ravens

3 75 Laurent Robinson Illinois State Atlanta Falcons

3 76 Jason Hill Washington State San Francisco 49ers

3 78 James Jones San Jose State Green Bay Packers

3 79 Mike Walker Central Florida Jacksonville Jaguars

3 80 Paul Williams Fresno State Tennessee Titans

3 99 Johnnie Lee Higgins Texas-El Paso Oakland Raiders

 

Here are the stats for last year's rookie WRs with 20+ catches and their rank (took out TEs and RBs):

 

Rank Player Team Pos Rec Yds Avg Yds/G Lng TD 20+ 40+ 1st 1st% FUM

1 Dwayne Bowe KC WR 70 995 14.2 62.2 58 5 13 2 51 72.9 0

2 Calvin Johnson DET WR 48 756 15.8 50.4 49 4 12 1 38 79.2 1

3 James Jones GB WR 47 676 14.4 42.2 79T 2 10 2 29 61.7 3

6 Anthony Gonzalez IND WR 37 576 15.6 44.3 57T 3 11 2 27 73.0 0

6 Laurent Robinson ATL WR 37 437 11.8 29.1 74T 1 5 2 14 37.8 1

9 Ted Ginn Jr. MIA WR 34 420 12.4 26.2 54 2 5 1 18 52.9 0

10 Sidney Rice MIN WR 31 396 12.8 30.5 60T 4 3 2 25 80.6 0

14 Craig Davis SD WR 20 188 9.4 13.4 18 1 0 0 12 60.0 0

 

Of 17 WRs selected in rounds 1-3, only 8 show up as having had 20 or more receptions. Of those, I would argue that four did anything significant; Bowe, Johnson, Gonzalez, and Rice. That's it of 17 WR selections in day one. Johnson was part of an aerial circus in Detroit in spite of its ineffectiveness. Gonzalez had Manning throwing to him on the Colt O.

 

It's even worse for 2006 and no new WRs stepped up in '07 either.

 

So the odds are against Hardy doing much. What that means is that there's probably less than a 25% chance that he does anything even close to what some are hoping and better than a 50% chance that he will bust. Now, the same is true for every other WR drafted in rounds 1-3 however.

[obie_wan]

It's also false. If it's true, it's amazing he caught 191 passes for 36 TD's in college.

 

The DBs in the NFL will be a slight bit better than the ones he faced in college where he could rely on big size and poor technique to get by.

 

If he works on his game, he can be productive.

 

Time will tell

[VOR]

The DBs in the NFL will be a slight bit better than the ones he faced in college where he could rely on big size and poor technique to get by.

 

If he works on his game, he can be productive.

 

Time will tell

The fact that he went to Edwards on his own to work on fade patterns suggests he wants to work on his game. And I recall the 5'11" 198# Evans working with Troy Vincent to learn to beat the jam at the LOS, which he did. It shouldn't be a major problem.

[krazykat]

As to the FB situation, I don't think that much has changed. Barnes isn't Lorenzo Neal, but he is a solid run blocker, with ok hands. I think it is unfortunate that Viti got hurt, though he may be back on the PS by the end of the season. I don't think this changes much at all. The Bills will still use a true FB in the offense which should help in the running game.

 

As for me being "one step closer to being wrong" how d'you figure? Because Viti isn't going to play at FB? Seriously? Barnes is adequate for the position as it stands and I didn't think that the Bills were going to use the FB slot much in the short passing game anyway, at most 10-15 catches all season. To suggest that somehow my argument about the O improving all hinged on the FB is just ridiculous.

Listen to you on spin cycle! LOL

 

You could hold your own ladies tea.

[krazykat]

This fan hopes that Schonert and the whole Bills braintrust is lying to me and being quite effective at doing it. While some fans care so much about being told the truth about everything and knowing as much as they can know, this is one fan that is quite happy to have them lie to me and fool me if this means that the Bllls opponents are lied to as well. If in fact the are foolish enough to be snookered by a lie and this makes it easier for the Bills to win its a great thing IMHO,

 

The Bills winning is a lot more important to me than me being told the truth.

 

The great John Butler was not simply that he would not tell me the truth but that the team lost while carrying out his lies.

Well my point is that it doesn't matter how we all hope. Quite a lot of you seem to think that just because you hope for something and ask for it like you do at Christmas, it's got a better chance of occurring.

 

How we hope doesn't make one bit of difference. Why is that so difficult for some to understand?

 

The Bills winning is a lot more important to me than me being told the truth.

 

Me too. But I'm telling you now, get ready for disappointment this season then just as I will once again be disappointed.

[krazykat]

Yes, you are undoubtedly statistically correct about the utility of a WR taken in the draft, but one when asking why this happened it would make a lot more sense to conclude something else is going on here the Bills braintrust is simply out to lunch on this one.

 

However:

 

1. Even with the typical learning curve delay which occurs with most rookie WRs there likely is going to be an immediate benefit for Evans in the redzone as other teams will simply be forced to place their best DB at covering bigger players on Hardy in the redzone, If this good coverage guy would have dt'ed or had even taken the prime coverage responsibility then Evans will profit from Hardy's presence without Hardy even catching a pass.

 

2. The Bills had an obvious critical need for redzone improvement and getting a player who is freakishly tall who took in 30+ TD in college is quite likely to fill a different specific role than many of the players whose stats you rely on. There is no guarantee of course but one has to willfully put blinders on not to at least acknowledge that this is a significant difference which may be a good reason why the past statistical info may not determine this case. I know it may be tough for a believer in past stats to acknowledge their limitations but do you not see this as a reason why the simple past statistical recitation my not apply directly in this case? Instead you seem to make statements like the limited speed comment which actually seem to run counter to the stats produced by Hardy at the Combine.

 

3. The pick of Hardy was not a flawless piece of work as I too feel that the likelihood of a WR contributing significantly as a rookie are small and uncertain enough it puts a lot of pressure on the Hardy pick to work out. However, the solution to this problem is not necessarily picking another similarly regarded player who he odds stack up against the same as they do for Hardy but instead I would feel much better about the uncertainties regarding any 2nd round WE we could have chosen that picking yet another WR in the second or third rounds would have likely heightened this draft being a good one. Simply ragging on Hardy means little,

 

4. Any statistical analysis is pretty meaningless in terms of drawing specific conclusions (which you do not do but again any honest probability analysis needs to site how this specific draft differs from the norm) now as this draft was markedly different from past or recent talent pools. Unless you want to lay out criteria which define the talent in this draft (no WRs judged to merit a 1st, but yet tons of available WR talent which merit a second or a third this year and might have garnered a first in other drafts.

 

The risk here was not taking Hardy but in waiting until so late to take alternative Jackson.

 

We'll see but this case does not look as bleak as you seem to imply.

First of all, the default here is that the Bills' brain trust is out to lunch on this one because they've pretty much been out to lunch since they got here and the biggest splashes of them all, Levy, is gone. Fairchild was also given the red carpet treatment by the same people on your side of this argument, as was McGahee, Bledsoe, Milloy, Vincent, etc., etc., etc. And if you think that the Bills' brain trust hasn't been out to lunch since they got here, well, I don't know where you've been, but it hasn't been paying attention to this team.

 

1. I think we've heard this a million times already. Is there anything new?

 

2. I'm not putting blinders on to anything, you are. I'll play along though. Matt Jones entered this league a lot higher prospect than Hardy and with significantly better measurables relatively speaking. Yet, in spite of being an inch taller than Hardy, hasn't even managed an an average of 5 TDs or 500 yards receiving. Now you will make up a list of more exccuses why that didn't happen, but there are probably equal arguments as to why he didn't than there are why he should have over Hardy on the Bills.

 

But the fact of the matter, is that Hardy may very well do nothing. It wouldn't at all in the least be unusual for him to struggle to the extent that simply isn't effective. Am I saying that that will happen? No, and nothing I've written supports the notion that I did. But what I am saying is that let's suppose he gets 5 TDs and 500 yards as a rookie, along with to whatever extent he "opens things up for the rest of the WRs," which you and others tremendously overrate, that alone won't be enough to help an offense that couldn't score more than 1 TD/game under Edwards as an offensive unit. Even if that doubles to 2 TDs/game from the O, it still will suck in spite of meaning an extra 16 O TDs on the season, with only 5 from Hardy. You don't seem to understand that and how bad we were last year. And if Hardy craps out then where will we be?

 

3. The pick of Hardy once again revealed to fans and media that this team thinks that both lines are solid. I disagree and last year's D and O rankings should support me on that. As well, it all believes whether or not you think that the start of any good football teams is the "trenches" or lines. If not, then that would explain much of the difference in our perspectives. But didn't the Donahoe era very much validate that you can have all the skill position players that you want, but without lines you can kiss success out the window. And how did the Giants beat the Pats in the SB and how does every SB winner annually win? By getting better line play which was obvious this past SB.

 

4. I have no idea what you're talking about with your statistical statements. It's very confusing. Otherwise, this WR class will in general play out exactly like every other one. Although there were no WRs taken in round 1, there were 15 taken in rounds 2 and 3. Of those 2-4 will do anything even remotely impressive this season as rookies and the other 10+ will do absolutely nothing noteworthy. The question is which group will Hardy be in. Then another one or a few more from rounds 4 and lower will do something that shows something, which in our case could very well be Johnson. But when I say that, the optimism of that statement is shot down. Go figure.

 

Either way, since we don't know which of those 15 2nd/3rd round WRs will "shine," the chances of Hardy playing such that he even approaches making the kind of difference that you say should be a given for all intents and purposes here, are less than 1 in 3. That's a fact based on past history. It's an absurdly greater reach to suggest that this year's WRs will not follow the pattern that has existed like clockwork year in and year out within a very reasonable margin of error.

 

We'll see but this case does not look as bleak as you seem to imply.

 

The chances of it occurring as you say are against it happening. Does that mean it won't? No. But Jones didn't do it and he was pretty much exactly the same as Hardy plus some since he also had the ability to stretch the field. So if anything, I'd say that that even increases, not decreases, the chances that Hardy's in that small group.

 

Either way, if he craps out, you won't admit that you're wrong. You and everyone else will continue to repeat what you do every year talking about how "this year" they're finally "headed in the right direction."

 

Meanwhile, where's the outrage on your part that the buffoons running this team cannot produce a winner for you and the rest of the fans with their erroneous strategies that change with you changing your undies? Why aren't you more irate at their perennially screwing the pooch?

[krazykat]

This fan hopes that Schonert and the whole Bills braintrust is lying to me and being quite effective at doing it. While some fans care so much about being told the truth about everything and knowing as much as they can know, this is one fan that is quite happy to have them lie to me and fool me if this means that the Bllls opponents are lied to as well. If in fact the are foolish enough to be snookered by a lie and this makes it easier for the Bills to win its a great thing IMHO,

 

The Bills winning is a lot more important to me than me being told the truth.

 

The great John Butler was not simply that he would not tell me the truth but that the team lost while carrying out his lies.

And I notice that you didn't address the notion that Schonert is likely then either lying, is already proving that he doesn't know WTF he's doing, or wasn't effective in lobbying his head coach to get the tools that he says will be necessary in the running of his offense.

 

Instead, it's off the races with vague, arbitrary, and unsubstantive statements ignoring the entire point that I made.

 

Again, Schonert said earlier, shortly after he was hired, that the FB would be a pivotal part of the offense this year and the set would often feature a two-RB set including a FB. Well, not we know that that FB will be Barnes more than likely and if another then may the sweet mother of mercy help us all.

 

Meanwhile, in spite of glimpses that something ain't right here, the excuses are flying like dollar bills around a titty bar.

[ax4782]

But - he is tall - so the fact that he can't separate from CBs and can't get off the line of scrimmage is not material

 

This is clearly coming from someone who doesn't know anything about the player or his ability. He runs a 4.45 40. More than fast enough to "get off the line." Against good secondaries in the Big Ten he caught 36 TDs in 33 games. I guess he must have done that with two CBs on him every time since he can't separate. Or when he had a 14-142-2 game against Penn State, I suppose he couldn't get enough separation to have an over 10 yd per catch average, or that he finished with an insane 79-1125-16 and a 14.2 yards per catch average, he must be covered constantly because he can't get away from coverage. Rather than taking Mort's word for it, try looking at some of his college game tape and his combine performance before you start spouting off information that clearly is just WRONG.

[ax4782]

And krazykat, I'd like your opinion of Schonert's comments today concerning the use of ML in the passing game. He explains a number of things concerning the use of ML last year, or the lack thereof. The fact that ML is lining up as a receiver and will be used as an everydown back, sometimes paired with Fred Jackson on third down. The link is below.

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=6197

 

As to Schonert, I went back and looked at some of his comments concerning the use of the FB in the offense. He specifically stated that he wanted to use the FB primarily in the Redzone on running plays and sometimes as a diversion or short option close to the goal line. He never said he would use one every down.

 

Your comments about Schonert show that you have given up on the team before you have even seen what they can do. I think that is a bit overly pessimissitic. I prefer not to pass judgment on coaches or players until I've seen them in action. Perhaps you will turn out to be right, and if you are, we're in for a long season, and perhaps a long three seasons as a new staff is brought in and will have to rebuild. Before seeing such a dark and horrible football future for Buffalo, I prefer to wait and see what these players have. From what I've seen, they are doing the right things this offseason. You may disagree, but we wear different colored glasses.

 

Note: I like the signing of Williams. I think he is an important piece to the DL and should help to solidify that position going forward. He is one player that is certainly likely to benefit from Stroud's presence. Feel free to share your thoughts here too.

[obie_wan]

This is clearly coming from someone who doesn't know anything about the player or his ability. He runs a 4.45 40. More than fast enough to "get off the line." Against good secondaries in the Big Ten he caught 36 TDs in 33 games. I guess he must have done that with two CBs on him every time since he can't separate. Or when he had a 14-142-2 game against Penn State, I suppose he couldn't get enough separation to have an over 10 yd per catch average, or that he finished with an insane 79-1125-16 and a 14.2 yards per catch average, he must be covered constantly because he can't get away from coverage. Rather than taking Mort's word for it, try looking at some of his college game tape and his combine performance before you start spouting off information that clearly is just WRONG.

 

Newsflash- most of the Big 10 is slow and overrated.

 

NFL defenses will be slightly tougher than the slugs he beat in college.

 

speed has nothing to do with "getting off the line". NFL corners will jam him and he has already shown he lacks technique in escaping the jam.

 

Since the NFL plays far faster than college and timing is critical, Hardy will be taken out of plays right at the line before he can use his height and speed.

 

Even after he gets into his pattern, his routes aren't sharp enough to create separation from NFL CBs. If JP was the QB, he would never see a passs due to lack of separation. However, Trent throws on timing more than JP so there is still hope.

[VOR]

As to Schonert, I went back and looked at some of his comments concerning the use of the FB in the offense. He specifically stated that he wanted to use the FB primarily in the Redzone on running plays and sometimes as a diversion or short option close to the goal line. He never said he would use one every down.

Just like I said. I knew I remember reading that somewhere.

[ax4782]

Newsflash- most of the Big 10 is slow and overrated.

 

NFL defenses will be slightly tougher than the slugs he beat in college.

 

speed has nothing to do with "getting off the line". NFL corners will jam him and he has already shown he lacks technique in escaping the jam.

 

Since the NFL plays far faster than college and timing is critical, Hardy will be taken out of plays right at the line before he can use his height and speed.

 

Even after he gets into his pattern, his routes aren't sharp enough to create separation from NFL CBs. If JP was the QB, he would never see a passs due to lack of separation. However, Trent throws on timing more than JP so there is still hope.

 

Sounds like you've seen Hardy play a number of NFL games already. Oh wait, no you haven't. He hasn't played against one NFL corner, so all of you statements about him being slow, not able to get away from his coverage, and running terrible routes is all a bunch of skeptical mumbo-jumbo. By the way, some of the corners in the Big Ten are also pretty good. Those tend to the ones covering a team's best receiver on Saturday's. Oh, yeah. THose were the guys that were covering Hardy, whom he roundly STOMPED week in and week out, not for one year, but for three years. From what I could see in OTAs, the guy ran very good short and intermediate routes.

 

As for whether he would get the ball if JP was the QB, this isn't a QB thread, but, you're right. JP would throw it at his FEET!!!!! Just like he did with the short receivers we have now. The fact is, you have nothing to back up your hypothesis on Hardy's capabilities. He played against the best the Big Ten had to offer, not the slugs, and he routinely beat them. He has good hands and runs good routes for what we need. A big target over the middle. Until you have some facts or actual game footage of Hardy in an NFL game doing what you say, it's just a bunch of hot air.

[obie_wan]

Sounds like you've seen Hardy play a number of NFL games already. Oh wait, no you haven't. He hasn't played against one NFL corner, so all of you statements about him being slow, not able to get away from his coverage, and running terrible routes is all a bunch of skeptical mumbo-jumbo. By the way, some of the corners in the Big Ten are also pretty good. Those tend to the ones covering a team's best receiver on Saturday's. Oh, yeah. THose were the guys that were covering Hardy, whom he roundly STOMPED week in and week out, not for one year, but for three years. From what I could see in OTAs, the guy ran very good short and intermediate routes.

 

As for whether he would get the ball if JP was the QB, this isn't a QB thread, but, you're right. JP would throw it at his FEET!!!!! Just like he did with the short receivers we have now. The fact is, you have nothing to back up your hypothesis on Hardy's capabilities. He played against the best the Big Ten had to offer, not the slugs, and he routinely beat them. He has good hands and runs good routes for what we need. A big target over the middle. Until you have some facts or actual game footage of Hardy in an NFL game doing what you say, it's just a bunch of hot air.

 

Based on Hardy's super-human stats, he SHOULD have been a rock solid 1st round selection in a weak WR class.

 

Gee- I wonder what the NFL GMs and scouts for 32 NFL teams saw that they all passed on Hardy in the 1st round.

 

not to mention that he still wasn't the first WR off the board

 

hard to believe based on the inflated stats he put up -

 

but hey - what do the experts know?

 

Factor in has questionable character traits - and the guy is no sure thing to produce in 2008.

 

He needs to improve a lot to make the transition to the NFL - being tall is not enough