Scouts Inc. Fantasy O-Line rankings

[Adam]

I'm not convinced. What are your arguments to support this claim? Indeed, it's rather easier to believe that Jauron, even if he was given a roster with several Pro Bowlers, would find a way to play rope-a-dope. The argument that Jauron knows what to do with great offensive players seems highly fantastic.

 

Out of curiosity, what would it take for you to change your mind about Jauron and believe that he is a marginal head coach rather than that all of his problems are simply "lack of talent"?

It would take seeing the team consistently play below what I feel the talent level is- regardless of record- you can win games on luck, but level of play speaks for itself most of the time

[Sisyphean Bills]

It would take seeing the team consistently play below what I feel the talent level is- regardless of record- you can win games on luck, but level of play speaks for itself most of the time

OK, but this is a circular definition, eh? If you believe the talent level is extremely low, then any sort of marginal success is not performing below that talent level and that implies the poor (as measured against successful teams) play has little/nothing to do with the coach. In fact, it seems far more challenging for a team with lousy talent to consistently perform below minimal expectations -- even blind squirrels find nuts once in a while.

[Adam]

OK, but this is a circular definition, eh? If you believe the talent level is extremely low, then any sort of marginal success is not performing below that talent level and that implies the poor (as measured against successful teams) play has little/nothing to do with the coach. In fact, it seems far more challenging for a team with lousy talent to consistently perform below minimal expectations -- even blind squirrels find nuts once in a while.

I think its pretty subjective. I will say that I expect the level of play to be higher than last year for the most parts, but I also expect more mistakes out of Edwards- as teams have more film of him, and a rookie WR with some potential enters the lineup.

 

Furthermore, I think the biggest improvement on offense will not be the playcalling- it will be based on more possessions and field position because of the defense and special teams. The defense should be better than last year based on health alone (if they stay healthy, of course)- and that isn't factoring Stroud in. I don't know what to make of Stroud yet.

[BillsVet]

"Highly Fantastic". That's great!

 

To answer your question, I'd say stick around and watch this year. Nobody IMO in the Bills' organization has more pressure on him than da coach.

 

Don't exclude John Guy, Jim Overdorf, and the other Donahoe holdovers in the FO. Jauron has a lot of pressure on him no doubt, but this franchise must hire a real GM soon. Modrak's director of scouting, and the Bills have no one with bonafide experience handling the duties of a GM. Brandon will always be a business/marketing type.

[34-78-83]

I guess that's an ironclad reason for not wasting any high draft picks on the OL.

 

But if you spend high enough picks, those players can play right away- unlike UDFA who take years to determine they are no good.

 

Like in '07 where there were 2 linemen worth taking where we picked and both were already gone (Thomas and Brown-maybe). What a wasted pick that Lynch was! And then in the 2nd round when we took that crappy Poz kid (starting MLB) Staley and Grubbs were already gone and would have been backups, atleast to start. Sears and Blalock went soon after that.

 

Most of you that I'm debating with have fallen victim to blaming the current regime for the failures of the past.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I think its pretty subjective. I will say that I expect the level of play to be higher than last year for the most parts, but I also expect more mistakes out of Edwards- as teams have more film of him, and a rookie WR with some potential enters the lineup.

Fair enough. Continuous improvement is a sign of good young players and good coaching working in concert. Edwards did have a decent year statistically speaking last year. * (I'm ignoring qualifiers like "for a 3rd round rookie".) He was truly dismal in the 4th quarter of games (rating of 34.2) and generally wore down over the course of games. He also struggled more the more he played. So, it is not unfathomable that he'll regress as defenses have more on him. A lot also depends on Turk Schonert's undemonstrated and unknown ability to change up the offense to make it passably effective but not so much it becomes a different variant of cluster.

Furthermore, I think the biggest improvement on offense will not be the playcalling- it will be based on more possessions and field position because of the defense and special teams. The defense should be better than last year based on health alone (if they stay healthy, of course)- and that isn't factoring Stroud in. I don't know what to make of Stroud yet.

Yeah, who knows about Stroud at this point. The Bills have put their 2008 marbles in his jar; but, that doesn't address why the Jaguars were perfectly content to part company with the big guy on what superficial seemed like pretty affable terms for the Bills. We need a lot more than a Tony Boselli damaged goods type or a Dana Stubblefield overrated system and surroundings player.

 

* This comment was strictly looking at passer rating. Looking at other numbers, such as his adjusted net yards per attempt, show that Edwards (and Losman for that matter) had little success in moving the offense through the air. That statistic is downright bad for both Bills QBs and in the company of Kyle Boller, Cleo Lemon and David Carr.

[krazykat]

I'll leave Kelsay out because I agree with you re: him based on his production

re: the other 2 -

-There is a new cap in the NFL and many fans are still shocked and surprised by the size of the contracts for free agents, but it goes across the board to all teams and not just the Bills.

-Walker played at a level far superior than most Bills fans expected last year. In my view he was our best lineman not named Peters.

-Dockery is a proven road grader and had a decent though maybe unspectacular year. Many fans know what we have in him already from seeing him play with the Skins.

-Lines are only as good as the continuity and chemistry of the 5 guys playing.

-The guys we have played better last year than any Bill's O-line since '96 as far as I am concerned, especially in the pass protection department.

As they play more together, they only are going to improve. This could only be looked at as a positive as I see it.

 

The point is, these guys ARE decent linemen and the guys upstairs finally did know what they were doing in acquiring them. There are always going to be guys we pick up that don't pan out though too. That's the nature of the sport. The current regime in place has made large efforts to address both lines since arriving.

Actually, salaries/contracts have been levelling off somewhat. They went bananas from like '01 or '02 thru like '06 or so, then began levelling off.

 

And no, the point is that we could be getting much more for the money we're spending. You guys defending this organization's moves seem to look at every move in a vacuum. You have to look at the whole "system" and ensure that you get as much as you possibly can for the money you lay out. That's what good Coaches, GMs, and Personnel guys do.

[krazykat]

We are improving in various aspects of the game. Stats won't show it, but I believe that our special teams have not peaked yet. We may have the best kicking game in the league. As far as pursuit, other coaches in the NFL said that our defense is the best they've seen in that aspect.

 

Various aspects of our offense have improved, although things have not come together yet.

 

They are playing hard for Jauron- they gave up on Mularkey, big difference.

 

As far as game planning, it will help when our coaches can stop needing to game plan around our talent level, and other coaches have to start. I don't blame our front office just yet, as I already cited many blunders by previous GM's that we still haven't recovered from.

 

I think what people REALLY don't like about Jauron is that he isn't a dominant personality and doesn't yell or scream. Many coaches with his demeanor have won before- Bill Walsh and George Seifert as prime examples. He lets the team speak for him and he is a great delegator. If Schoenert pan out, the improvement will continue.

LMAO

 

OK then, what parts of our game have improved then? So far Lynch hasn't given us anymore than McGahee did. Schobel clearly got worse from '06 to '07 and if that doesn't reverse itself the team will have to begin thinking about what to do with him as Ellis pushes up.

 

You and others keep saying things like "Various aspects of our offense have improved, although things have not come together yet."

 

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that they haven't come together yet as our O and D both regressed since Jauron took over. Call me crazy. But aren't these statements along the lines of the "check's in the mail."

 

As far as game planning, it will help when we finaly see our team pushing the other ones around the field instead of visa versa in spite of whether or not we can get a quasi-miracle Defensive TD and/or return TD to eek out a win against a scrub team.

 

I think what people REALLY don't like about Jauron is that he isn't a dominant personality and doesn't yell or scream.

 

See, that's the difference between people on your side and people on our side of this debate. I don't care if he eats nails for breakfast and hates every player on the team as long as we win. You and others keep talking about what a great guy he is, and how good the relationships that he has with his players are, and how they love, cherish, and respect him. They're not engaged, they work for the team and are getting paid handsomely to play well but aren't!

[krazykat]

You want more......over the same 10 drafts, the Bills selected 9 DBs in the first 4 rounds, with no less than 4 first rounders. This is slightly more than 20% of their best picks. Now, exactly how long is our playoff drought?

Btw, also in terms of the first 4 rounds, Jauron has used 5 out of 12 picks on defensive backs, for a whopping 41.666%!!! In the process, he turned down trade offers, and traded away 2 2nd round picks. Him, and of course his mentor, Levy.

 

What never ceases to amaze me is how people can think that this is a good thing.

Jauron and Fewell were both defensive backs and that's what they know. I suggested that when they took over their emphasis would be on the back 7 or even DBs just as it has been.

[krazykat]

I think it is simpler than that. Jauron just doesn't win football games.

 

Walsh revolutionized the game of football and had one of the most pervasive and extensive impacts on the game of football as anyone has ever had. Jauron is a grain of sand compared to that mountain.

You just have to love all of these comparisons between Walsh and other coaches when Jauron has had only one winning season and a less than spectacular one at that with a corresponding thrashing by the lowest seeded playoff team in the first round.

[krazykat]

I think its pretty subjective. I will say that I expect the level of play to be higher than last year for the most parts, but I also expect more mistakes out of Edwards- as teams have more film of him, and a rookie WR with some potential enters the lineup.

 

Furthermore, I think the biggest improvement on offense will not be the playcalling- it will be based on more possessions and field position because of the defense and special teams. The defense should be better than last year based on health alone (if they stay healthy, of course)- and that isn't factoring Stroud in. I don't know what to make of Stroud yet.

So then you expect the level of play to be higher than last year's near league low standards then?

 

You're really stepping out there, aren't you.

 

As to field position, that wasn't the issue last year, it was our inability to move the ball from wherever we were. We were the 32nd ranked team in ball movement. We ranked 18th, average, in starting field position.

[krazykat]

I think its pretty subjective. I will say that I expect the level of play to be higher than last year for the most parts, but I also expect more mistakes out of Edwards- as teams have more film of him, and a rookie WR with some potential enters the lineup.

 

Furthermore, I think the biggest improvement on offense will not be the playcalling- it will be based on more possessions and field position because of the defense and special teams. The defense should be better than last year based on health alone (if they stay healthy, of course)- and that isn't factoring Stroud in. I don't know what to make of Stroud yet.

So then you expect the level of play to be higher than last year's near league low standards then?

 

You're really stepping out there, aren't you.

 

As to field position, that wasn't the issue last year, it was our inability to move the ball from wherever we were. We were the 32nd ranked team in ball movement. We ranked 18th, average, in starting field position.

[krazykat]

We are improving in various aspects of the game. Stats won't show it, but I believe that our special teams have not peaked yet.

 

Over the past several seasons our special teams are what has carried this team and as of only two or so seasons ago led the league or were very close to it for several seasons straight.

 

Do you ever research anything before you post?

[krazykat]

Don't exclude John Guy, Jim Overdorf, and the other Donahoe holdovers in the FO. Jauron has a lot of pressure on him no doubt, but this franchise must hire a real GM soon. Modrak's director of scouting, and the Bills have no one with bonafide experience handling the duties of a GM. Brandon will always be a business/marketing type.

They can get rid of Modrak, Guy, Majeski, and a bunch of others too and gain simply by addition by subtraction. This team with a majority vote from its fans could draft better and do no worse in free agency. Hell, a blind monkey throwing darts could hardly do worse.

[Adam]

Over the past several seasons our special teams are what has carried this team and as of only two or so seasons ago led the league or were very close to it for several seasons straight.

 

Do you ever research anything before you post?

So you are saying there is no room for improvement on special teams? I think the improvement on defense PAIRED with our return and coverage game not only will lead to more possessions and better field position based on fewer first downs given up. This gives us more red zone opportunities in which we should at least get fieldgoals if we can't punch it in. By definition, we should get more touchdowns as well.

 

And as far as consecutive post IIIa-145b, the offense has improved, despite a lack of continuity. You may not exactly like the play calling under Fairchild, but those who call for this so-called innovation need to remember Inspector Gadget's botched halfback option pass by Travis Henry that derailed us against Miami- after a good start to the season. We never recovered from that call.

 

We need to settle down as far as making head coaching changes and the same goes for the quarterback position. It takes time for an offense to gel and changing QB's will disrupt the line and the skill position players. We need to get a Kent Hull or at least Jerry Ostroski type center who can hold his ground- then we will find out if Walker is good enough of not. Center hasn't really been a strength since Hull retired. The defensive line hasn't been a strength since Bruce and Ted Washington both were on it.

 

This year is about the core of the team continuing to progress.

[34-78-83]

Actually, salaries/contracts have been levelling off somewhat. They went bananas from like '01 or '02 thru like '06 or so, then began levelling off.

 

And no, the point is that we could be getting much more for the money we're spending. You guys defending this organization's moves seem to look at every move in a vacuum. You have to look at the whole "system" and ensure that you get as much as you possibly can for the money you lay out. That's what good Coaches, GMs, and Personnel guys do.

 

Salaries, in no way, have been leveling off. I'm not even refering to '02.... They didn't "go bananas" til the new bargaining agreement like 2 years ago. And new contracts are currently up atleast 50% if not more from where they were 2 years ago. Interior OL are getting atleast twice what they were getting 2 years ago. Wr's and Db's too. Look at a guy like Berrian. An average receiver getting that contract? It's crazy... or krazy :-)

[Bill from NYC]

We need to get a Kent Hull or at least Jerry Ostroski type center who can hold his ground- then we will find out if Walker is good enough of not.

 

Jerry Ostroski? Did you ever watch him play Center? He was slit your wrists awful; far worse than Fowler, who isn't good.

[VOR]

Salaries, in no way, have been leveling off. I'm not even refering to '02.... They didn't "go bananas" til the new bargaining agreement like 2 years ago. And new contracts are currently up atleast 50% if not more from where they were 2 years ago. Interior OL are getting atleast twice what they were getting 2 years ago. Wr's and Db's too. Look at a guy like Berrian. An average receiver getting that contract? It's crazy... or krazy :-)

I was going to respond to krazy's post on this, but you beat me to it. How anyone can claim that salaries "have levelled-off" since the 2002 is beyond explanation.

[Adam]

Jerry Ostroski? Did you ever watch him play Center? He was slit your wrists awful; far worse than Fowler, who isn't good.

I didn't mean to say he was good- I do think he was better than Fowler, but center has been far from a strength since Hull retired, and this destroys the performance of the line as a whole

[34-78-83]

I'm with Bill... Fowler is vastly superior to what Ostroski was as a center. The difference for me is I think fowler has the intellect, understanding and technique (especially pulling) to be good but he has a lot of trouble being a stand up pass protector or a hat on hat run blocker. Centers like him should not be given one on one assignments in those situations. They should be the ones who help out on double teams or delayed pass rushers like LB's.