Celtics/Lakers NBA finals...

[Buftex]

It will be interesting to see if the Lakers are getting the calls in LA that the Celts were getting in Boston.

 

There were some absolutely REDICULOUS calls on screens and post-ups that could definitely be called on every trip down the court if the refs wanted to nitpick. These are huge games and the refs should let the players bang a little bit for position. (Not just playing the "homer" angle either- they tagged KG for a horrible call when he was setting a screen for Allen coming around a curl.)

 

I'm not talking about foul shot discrepency or anything like that...It's more the 2 early fouls called on Kobe and the 2 at the end of the 1st quarter called on Odom. They were all 50/50 and nobody would notice if they weren't called, but instead, those two players have to come out of the game to protect against getting a 3rd foul early in the half.

 

I understand that the refs "protecting" star players is a beef a lot of people have with the NBA, but to call touch fouls and force a team to sit the players who actually got them to the finals is hogwash. A foul is foul, but at times the refs seem to want to impose their dominance on a game. Newsflash fellahs, nobody is paying $300 for a ticket to watch you.

 

That will always be a sticking point for basketball, because in no other sport (except maybe the home plate ump in baseball) does a ref have so much objective impact on the game.

 

Thing is, that goes both ways. Kobe rarely gets in foul trouble, even when he is comitting blatant fouls. Odom got called for a charge last night, that was called the other way in game one. I agree with your point about officiating in the NBA, but it has been that way forever. I think the Lakers have earned a reputation for being sort of "bitchy" so, yeah, they may get some ticky-tack fouls from time to time. But every team gets them. They also do committ a lot of fouls, because they are a lazy defensive team.

[Buftex]

Are you crazy? Look at how Kobe turned a blowout into a come-from-behind narrow loss!! Who else could do that???

 

 

I think Kobe is the best in the NBA. But I still don't think he is in the Jordan class either. As much hype as he gets about his defensive skills, he doesn't use them all the time. MJ was terrific with and without the ball. As impressive as the Laker comeback was, last night, did anyone really think they were going to come all the way back, with so little time on the clock? Falling behind by 24 pts is never a good strategy.

[Buftex]

It will be interesting to see if the Lakers are getting the calls in LA that the Celts were getting in Boston.

 

 

The Lakers will "get the calls" if they play hard, and don't resign themselves to settling for jump shots.

[LongLiveRalph]

The Lakers will "get the calls" if they play hard, and don't resign themselves to settling for jump shots.

 

No doubt the Celtics D has played a major role in Kobe settling for jump shots...They have that lane on lockdown, and are defending like they're playing for an NBA title. But Kobe can't shy away from the contact...As for the Jordan comparisons, anytime the analyst brings it up, the boys in the truck should just roll old playoff highlights of Jordan getting to the hoop against the Pistons and the Knicks if they want to show the difference between the two...I know KG is a monster in there, but Mike wasn't settling for one foul shot in an NBA finals game.

 

Kobe rarely gets in foul trouble, even when he is comitting blatant fouls. Odom got called for a charge last night, that was called the other way in game one. I agree with your point about officiating in the NBA, but it has been that way forever. I think the Lakers have earned a reputation for being sort of "bitchy" so, yeah, they may get some ticky-tack fouls from time to time. But every team gets them. They also do committ a lot of fouls, because they are a lazy defensive team.

 

I realize the refs aren't going to foul Kobe out of the game...But two ticky-tack fouls early certainly plays a big role in the game, namely: Kobe has to come out of the game immediately, can't risk a 3rd foul in the 1st quarter, and for the rest of the half he didn't guard Paul Pierce at all, even with Allen out of the game. It's also riskier on offense for him to drive, when Boston has three guys waiting for him in the lane. So it does directly impact the way the game plays out. (I forgott Odom's first foul- the charge- I would've called that a charge too, but his 2nd came immediately and was very soft.)

 

As much hype as he gets about his defensive skills, he doesn't use them all the time.

 

Have to agree, like any good defender it really comes down to desire, and sometimes Kobe's desires tilt towards the other end of the court. But when he wants to, he can smother...Not to harp on it, but two early fouls CAN change the way an aggresive player plays...At least until midway thru the 3rd.

 

Thing is, that goes both ways.

 

Tis often true, that's why it's not really worth getting fired up about.

 

I'm not sure if the league (or the refs) think that these guys can't play hard without getting into a brawl...When guys are fighting for position for a rebound, they pretty much let them go to war...So why can't you battle for position on a post-up or set a non-moving screen that is a cruncher? Let them play for a title, IMO! Fouls are fouls, but the knick-knacks happen every play...The players have a way of squaring that stuff on their own!

 

Should be interesting in LA...When's the next game, two Sundays from now???

[BuffOrange]

Only 3 teams in history have ever won the finals after being down 2-0, and none of them were in 6 games. And at least the 69 Celtics and 77 Blazers were much better constructed TEAMS than the 2008 Lakers. Not saying it can't happen, but I will say it won't happen.

 

The '06 Heat say hello.

Granted they got as much or more help from the refs than the C's did last night.

[ofiba]

The '06 Heat say hello.

Granted they got as much or more help from the refs than the C's did last night.

 

Ah yes. The phantom fouls when no one touched Wade...every time down the court. That series had to be fixed.

[ajzepp]

So, the Lakers showed a lot of "heart"? Maybe I am biased, but I think the Lakers are the team showing a lack of heart. And I think the Celtics are showing that they are the superior team. Now, I know, anything can happen, I wouldn't count the Lakers out either, but I think the Lakers look badly overmatched so far in these first two games. The Celtics had a mental lapse with six minutes to go last night, but they have been in control for most of the first two games. The Celtics seem to be able to "impose their will" on the Lakers, but the Lakers haven't been able to to the same. I will stick with my original prediction of the Celtics in 7, but I am less impresed with the Lakers than I thought I would be. Returning to LA might be what they need. I do think the Celtics will win at least one of the three, and close it out in Boston.

 

 

Maybe heart is the wrong word (though the Lakers did almost pull off a pretty big comeback), but I wasn't all that impressed with Boston's ability to close the door in either game...particularly last night's game, for obvious reasons.

[John from Riverside]

People who make the Kobe Michael comparisons make me laugh.......

 

Sure roll out that old film....and watch how if you BREATHED on Michael Jordan he was going to the free throw line......defensive players were afraid to touch him because they knew they were going to the bench shortly after....and THAT (along with great skills) is why Michael Jordon would never settle for getting the amount of free throws Kobe is getting.

 

Another thing.....if anyone is watching the NBA finals look how the lakers were driving in the lane in the first quarter....the celtics were GRABBING ARMS WITH NO CALL.......

 

When this happens a team will start shooting jumpers because they are not calling the foul.......sure the lakers should have kept trying......but had they dont that the game would not have been close in the first half. Keep in mind that they had a lead at a certain point in the game until that HORRIBLE third quarter despite a huge disparity in free throws and a lot of the lakers starters were in foul trouble. This is while the lakers were taking more shots IN THE PAINT and the celtics were shooting more jumpshots.

 

The thing is.....you just know that the officating is going to change going back to LA.....and people will talk about how the celtics down play well on the road and the lakers got the majority of the calls.....

 

This thing is going 7. The lakers will win all 3 games at home and the celts will tie the series up after that....and the NBA will reap in as much moola as it possibly can. I only hope that they just let them play in the 7th game.

[LongLiveRalph]

People who make the Kobe Michael comparisons make me laugh.......

 

I don't really care either way. They do it for Kobe, they did it for LeBron last year, they did it for Wade before that. It's just the way it is. Everyone who is a fan can make up their own mind about who is better, or the greatest, or the next...Whatever...I never get pissed at analysts, it just makes no sense. You know a guy like Jeff Van Gandy couldn't care less about choosing Kobe vs. MJ, but he has a producer yapping in his ear to play up that angle.

 

Sure roll out that old film....and watch how if you BREATHED on Michael Jordan he was going to the free throw line......defensive players were afraid to touch him because they knew they were going to the bench shortly after....and THAT (along with great skills) is why Michael Jordon would never settle for getting the amount of free throws Kobe is getting.

 

It's not debatable that Jordan benefited from the calls. "Breathed" on him? Hahaha too funny...Hand checks were legal in those days my friend...First he had to get past the molestations of Joe Dumars or John Starks on the perimeter, only to find Charles Oakley/Patrick Ewing/Bill Laimbeer/Rick Mahorn/Dennis Rodman waiting for him under the rim. He did not hesitate to mix it up in the lane and those guys mentioned were FAR from the touch-foul type. He put the refs under pressure to make a decision one way or another, and more often than not, he got the call. Kobe has not done that thus far in this series.

 

Kobe's fade away is one area where he falls well short of Jordan, and to continue to rely on it will get him nowhere.

[John from Riverside]

I don't really care either way. They do it for Kobe, they did it for LeBron last year, they did it for Wade before that. It's just the way it is. Everyone who is a fan can make up their own mind about who is better, or the greatest, or the next...Whatever...I never get pissed at analysts, it just makes no sense. You know a guy like Jeff Van Gandy couldn't care less about choosing Kobe vs. MJ, but he has a producer yapping in his ear to play up that angle.

 

 

 

It's not debatable that Jordan benefited from the calls. "Breathed" on him? Hahaha too funny...Hand checks were legal in those days my friend...First he had to get past the molestations of Joe Dumars or John Starks on the perimeter, only to find Charles Oakley/Patrick Ewing/Bill Laimbeer/Rick Mahorn/Dennis Rodman waiting for him under the rim. He did not hesitate to mix it up in the lane and those guys mentioned were FAR from the touch-foul type. He put the refs under pressure to make a decision one way or another, and more often than not, he got the call. Kobe has not done that thus far in this series.

 

Kobe's fade away is one area where he falls well short of Jordan, and to continue to rely on it will get him nowhere.

 

I agree that Jordon put the refs under the pressure to make the call....and they usually went his way....and I agree that Kobe is not doing that this series.

 

Why that is I do not know.

[Buftex]

Good game for the Lakers last night. The Zen master got his way the officials, but his team kept this closer than it should have been, with horredous free throw shooting. Kobe of all people, was someting like 9 of 16 from the fould line...very un-Kobe like. Odd, since they were shooting great from the floor.

 

Anyways, I sort of expected the Celts to lose this game. They looked tired, and out of synch all night. The Lakers amped up the agessiveness in their game, causing Pierce to get into foul trouble really early on. He only played 31 minutes as a result. Lakeres did a nice job. Vujacic was out of his mind...everything he put up was good. Kobe showed why, despite the nay-sayers, why his is the best in the game. He shot great, he created opportunities for his teammates, drew fouls (talk about overacting!) and set the tone for his team very early on.

 

Pierce was a non-factor, and KG was just off, most of the night. He just couldn't find his jump shot. I was happy, when the Celtics made their little "run" to take the lead, early in the third, KG started posting up, instead of shooting jumpers. For some reason, they got away from that as the game went on. Despite all that, it was a close game...I know Pierce and Garnett will have better games, and Vuyacic will not be so hot every night.

 

All and all, a very sloppy game by the both teams, especially the Celtics. Despite all that, it was a close game.

[KD in CA]

Anyways, I sort of expected the Celts to lose this game.

 

Big surprise, huh? This league is basically the WWF now, isn't it?

[LongLiveRalph]

Big surprise, huh? This league is basically the WWF now, isn't it?

 

It's not surprising that the NBA is run by it's Entertainment division. No question I could see them fixing things to ensure a series plays that Game 7 on the Sunday ratings day, or that the Lakers advance over the Utah Jazz.

 

Phil Jackson was incredibly candid in an interview with Michele Tafoya yesterday, saying basically:

 

"I don't really follow the news like I should, so I'm not sure of everything Donaghy alleged. But certainly in my time in this league, I have noticed things or calls that happened during a game that were more than suspicious. I just don't think any of us ever took it to that level (i.e. that the games were fixed.)"

 

The tone of his answers were very matter-of-fact and it didn't sound like he'd be shocked if the refs were "company men." They are NBA employees after all.

[ricojes]

Big surprise, huh? This league is basically the WWF now, isn't it?

Celtics played as poor as they could have played and only lost by 6. IMO they need to win one of these games in LA to wrap up the title, as they should be able to win one of two at home. I just see the Celts as a better team with a much deaper bench. Celtics in 6...

[Buftex]

The tone of his answers were very matter-of-fact and it didn't sound like he'd be shocked if the refs were "company men." They are NBA employees after all.

 

 

If you believe all of the conspiracy theories, Phil Jackson has been on the advantage side of as many as anyone. If I was him, I would probably keep my trap shut.

[LongLiveRalph]

If you believe all of the conspiracy theories, Phil Jackson has been on the advantage side of as many as anyone. If I was him, I would probably keep my trap shut.

 

Oh no doubt, that's why is candor was surprising and respected (by me at least.) The guy with the most NBA titles in history (and with MJ/Shaq/Kobe on his rosters) would be the last one I would expect to say that "refereeing has been more than suspicious" at times.

 

He's obviously not alluding to games being fixed, but his comments suggested the possibility that he and his assistants have sat around after games in private and said, "Jeez do you believe what they were calling out there? Hmmm....I wonder...."

 

It doesn't even have to be a series clincher or anything like that...Imagine the Cavs are up 3-1 in a series. I could see the NBA "urging" the refs to make it difficult on the Cavaliers in game 5 on Thursday (on TNT) so that they can have LeBron on TV (on ABC) in a game 6 on Sunday afternoon. They can whistle a few make-up calls then. Definitely wouldn't surprise me.

[Buftex]

Oh no doubt, that's why is candor was surprising and respected (by me at least.) The guy with the most NBA titles in history (and with MJ/Shaq/Kobe on his rosters) would be the last one I would expect to say that "refereeing has been more than suspicious" at times.

 

He's obviously not alluding to games being fixed, but his comments suggested the possibility that he and his assistants have sat around after games in private and said, "Jeez do you believe what they were calling out there? Hmmm....I wonder...."

 

It doesn't even have to be a series clincher or anything like that...Imagine the Cavs are up 3-1 in a series. I could see the NBA "urging" the refs to make it difficult on the Cavaliers in game 5 on Thursday (on TNT) so that they can have LeBron on TV (on ABC) in a game 6 on Sunday afternoon. They can whistle a few make-up calls then. Definitely wouldn't surprise me.

 

 

I loved Doc Rivers quote last night after the game, when being asked about the officiating:

 

"The Lakers got to the foul line more last night, because they earned their way there. They played good, agressive basketball. It's not a mystery, if you challange you will get to the foul line. Of course, if I was Phil Jackson, I could whine that Vuyacic got to the foul line more than Paul Pierce. It doesn't mean anything."

 

Very Phil Jackson like comment, on the surface, being honest, but really much more passive agressive than that. I think Doc is getting sick of hearing that the Zen master is "blowing him away in coaching" in coaching. Not in this series, IMO. Van Gundy was criticizing Rivers substitutions at the begining of the fourth quarter last night, forgetting the fact that Garnett had been in the game a lot more than normal, because of the foul trouble that Pierce was in. Doc was running out of options.

[SD Jarhead]

As much as I hate all things Boston, I hate the Lakers even more...Go Celtics!

[LongLiveRalph]

I loved Doc Rivers quote last night after the game, when being asked about the officiating:

 

"The Lakers got to the foul line more last night, because they earned their way there. They played good, agressive basketball. It's not a mystery, if you challange you will get to the foul line. Of course, if I was Phil Jackson, I could whine that Vuyacic got to the foul line more than Paul Pierce. It doesn't mean anything."

 

Very Phil Jackson like comment, on the surface, being honest, but really much more passive agressive than that. I think Doc is getting sick of hearing that the Zen master is "blowing him away in coaching" in coaching. Not in this series, IMO. Van Gundy was criticizing Rivers substitutions at the begining of the fourth quarter last night, forgetting the fact that Garnett had been in the game a lot more than normal, because of the foul trouble that Pierce was in. Doc was running out of options.

 

Yes, agreed about Doc...Hilarious that the media and Celtics fans thought he was a TOTAL buffoon three weeks ago when they were struggling with Atlanta, but apparently he "got smarter" in the last 20 days as his team took a 2-0 lead in the Finals. Just like he was the absolute worst coach last year when the Celtics won 15 games, and he's Coach of the Year now when they have three Hall of Famers on their roster. People are so short-sighted.

 

Phil is a good coach, if only for two things: His ability to keep his MEGA stars happy (every team has stars, but Phil has dealt with some players who have been sports and cultural phenomenons) and his ability to maximize the output and energy of mid-tier players that are CRUCIAL to a championship team. It's no conincidence that Lamar Odom is playing the best ball of his life with the Lakers (not yet in this series though.) Same for Rodman, Ron Harper, etc. with the Bulls.

[R. Rich]

Yes, agreed about Doc...Hilarious that the media and Celtics fans thought he was a TOTAL buffoon three weeks ago when they were struggling with Atlanta, but apparently he "got smarter" in the last 20 days as his team took a 2-0 lead in the Finals. Just like he was the absolute worst coach last year when the Celtics won 15 games, and he's Coach of the Year now when they have three Hall of Famers on their roster. People are so short-sighted.

 

Phil is a good coach, if only for two things: His ability to keep his MEGA stars happy (every team has stars, but Phil has dealt with some players who have been sports and cultural phenomenons) and his ability to maximize the output and energy of mid-tier players that are CRUCIAL to a championship team. It's no conincidence that Lamar Odom is playing the best ball of his life with the Lakers (not yet in this series though.) Same for Rodman, Ron Harper, etc. with the Bulls.

 

If you mean Harper had more titles (5 as opposed to zero) while playing for Phil Jackson, you're right. But, to say he was a better player under Phil is flat out wrong. Before he sustained a knee injury that robbed him of much of his athleticism, Harper was an outstanding scoring threat that was a tough matchup for anyone.