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Posted
In fact like most NE and Midwest american and canadian towns, Chicago is where it is BECAUSE water (in the case of Chicago at the end of the shortest road to go from the Missouri bassin to the Great Lakes system). Problem is when towns were founded later in the West, water was no longer the easiest way of transportation and the natural environment was no longer important to choose where to built a new town.)

 

Actually, early French explorers like Marquette pushed for the original portage here off of Lake Michigan to be further east! Where present day St. Joseph/Benton Harbor Michigan is... Along the St. Joe... To Kankakee.. To Illinois river route... I think noting the favorable and warmer winter weather alee of the lake... Chicago is windward... Some say the historical "Chicago Portage" is at this very site I sit now... Not up on the Chicago river some miles to the NW... Much debate... One thing is for sure, the State of Illinois had the foresight to push the "CheeseEater" border to the north! People don't realize at one time the Wisconsin border was further down south... Almost to where the present day I-55 interstate is. Politically, this area and Chicago made themselves a player first with their engineering!

 

On another note... it is so easy here... This is where there was and ancient continental divide was... The MS was much further wast than where it is today... In fact, right here... There is only about 5 feet that Chicago had to get through to reach the Illinois river and sunsequently the MS-OH watershed. The elevation of this river at the river bottom is the same as the elevation at the bottom of the Niagara River as it goes over the Falls... Thinik of us as the "syphon" almost at the top of the "watering can" (Great lakes).

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Posted

Sorry for the endless posts... There is so much to say about all of this... On the topic of natural cycle and temperature and what GG said:

 

It is a none historical fact that this area around Chicago played an important winter home to Native American tribes that migrated in the winter from the Green Bay area and other northern areas... Call them your first "SnowBirds"... :lol::P

 

This place was stinky and swampy and very undesireable EXCEPT that even early Native tribes found out that the commercial, ecomomic, and geographical blessings out weighed the shortcomings (dirty and hot in the summer)... The Natives and following Europeans could easily drag a canoe and create manmade waterways which easily promoted trade between the various human elements in the region and the watershedds!

 

There is a reason why the US made a point to erradicate the Natives and chase them far away early on in our nation's history!

Posted
In fact like most NE and Midwest american and canadian towns, Chicago is where it is BECAUSE water (in the case of Chicago at the end of the shortest road to go from the Missouri bassin to the Great Lakes system). Problem is when towns were founded later in the West, water was no longer the easiest way of transportation and the natural environment was no longer important to choose where to built a new town.)

 

Today you can take a boat, a commercial vessel, say one toting 2500 bbls of a petro product from Tulsa, Oklahoma to Chicago... True easier with today's canals.

 

Betcha didn't know that?

 

Edit:

 

The Oregon trail followed the MS and Platte river west... On the other side was the Mormon Trail... Picture that back in the day! :P:wallbash: The one's heading to Oregon getting their licks in on behalf of the Mormons later to find out they wouldn't have the last crossing the Great Basin!

 

:lol:

Posted
Actually, early French explorers like Marquette pushed for the original portage here off of Lake Michigan to be further east! Where present day St. Joseph/Benton Harbor Michigan is... Along the St. Joe... To Kankakee.. To Illinois river route... I think noting the favorable and warmer winter weather alee of the lake... Chicago is windward... Some say the historical "Chicago Portage" is at this very site I sit now... Not up on the Chicago river some miles to the NW... Much debate... One thing is for sure, the State of Illinois had the foresight to push the "CheeseEater" border to the north! People don't realize at one time the Wisconsin border was further down south... Almost to where the present day I-55 interstate is. Politically, this area and Chicago made themselves a player first with their engineering!

 

On another note... it is so easy here... This is where there was and ancient continental divide was... The MS was much further wast than where it is today... In fact, right here... There is only about 5 feet that Chicago had to get through to reach the Illinois river and sunsequently the MS-OH watershed. The elevation of this river at the river bottom is the same as the elevation at the bottom of the Niagara River as it goes over the Falls... Thinik of us as the "syphon" almost at the top of the "watering can" (Great lakes).

 

 

Did not know about the Benton Harbor portage... it made sense... The South Bend area could have become a big metropolis instead of the Chicago area...

 

Where is your work situated exactly? At the end of the Calumet river?

Posted
Today you can take a boat, a commercial vessel, say one toting 2500 bbls of a petro product from Tulsa, Oklahoma to Chicago... True easier with today's canals.

 

Betcha didn't know that?

 

:lol:

 

the way the economy and transportations costs go if i had money to invest i'd put few dollars on the river and canal transportation business... Even us in the fashion industry we are working on transit plans to use some vessels on the Rhone from Marseille Fos to our warehouse near Lyon.

Too bad the French government has lost decades and decided 5 years ago to stop the Rhin-Rhone Canal project, i bet in about 5 years they gonna bring it back to the table...

Posted
the way the economy and transportations costs go if i had money to invest i'd put few dollars on the river and canal transportation business... Even us in the fashion industry we are working on transit plans to use some vessels on the Rhone from Marseille Fos to our warehouse near Lyon.

Too bad the French government has lost decades and decided 5 years ago to stop the Rhin-Rhone Canal project, i bet in about 5 years they gonna bring it back to the table...

 

I am in the process of locking a northbound tow right now and a light boat (tow boat with no barges)... Aren't the rivers in Europe much smaller projects?

 

Here shipping through the years has been steadily going up (and some down years due to rail expansion, specially on this stretch)... But, the talk is about more now that fuel is rising... I posted this link... Did you see it:

 

Compare

 

 

Container and more intermodal areas are also talked about...

Posted
Did not know about the Benton Harbor portage... it made sense... The South Bend area could have become a big metropolis instead of the Chicago area...

 

Where is your work situated exactly? At the end of the Calumet river?

 

They get much more snow in Southbend... On a much closer scale, kind of like when the communites of Black Rock and BFLO where competing for the terminus of the Erie Canal... Black Rock was much more established... But, BFLO put out the resources to hand dig the BFLO river area, that is where the canal ended up entering Lake Erie... You know what happened to Black Rock? It became absorbed into BFLO.

 

Yes...

 

Thomas J. O'Brien Lock and Dam... Mile 326.5 on the Illinois WaterWay... That would be 326.5 miles above Grafton, IL where the Illinois meets the MS river... It is on the Calumet just north of where it meets the Little Cal and Grand Cal... About 7 miles from Lake Michigan... Just south of Lake Calumet which is the Chicago international port and terminus of the SeaWay...

 

Put the name in here at:

 

TJO

Posted
I am in the process of locking a northbound tow right now and a light boat (tow boat with no barges)... Aren't the rivers in Europe much smaller projects?

It depends... lot of national differences... in northern (flat!) Europe, the traffic on rivers like the Rhein, the Meuse, the Thames, the dutch and german canals is huge ... In France only the Seine (till Paris) and Rhone (till Lyon) are used with important volumes; in Italy or Spain there's about no river traffic. (and few makable projects) Problem is lot of rivers that were used in the 19th century can not be used anymore because of dams... But sure we'll see projects coming back soon with the current boom on oil price... some are yet on the table... They gonna built a "train highway" (trucks on express trains) line from Lyon to Torino under the Alps, here in Basque country they are talking about a "sea highway" (express cargos full of containers) from the Santander/Bilbao/Bayonne ports to English/Dutch/LeHavre/Hambourg ports ...

Posted
They get much more snow in Southbend... On a much closer scale, kind of like when the communites of Black Rock and BFLO where competing for the terminus of the Erie Canal... Black Rock was much more established... But, BFLO put out the resources to hand dig the BFLO river area, that is where the canal ended up entering Lake Erie... You know what happened to Black Rock? It became absorbed into BFLO.

 

Yes...

 

Thomas J. O'Brien Lock and Dam... Mile 326.5 on the Illinois WaterWay... That would be 326.5 miles above Grafton, IL where the Illinois meets the MS river... It is on the Calumet just north of where it meets the Little Cal and Grand Cal... About 7 miles from Lake Michigan... Just south of Lake Calumet which is the Chicago international port and terminus of the SeaWay...

 

Put the name in here at:

 

TJO

 

Where was Black Rock? north of dowtown Buffalo on the river?

Posted
Where was Black Rock? north of dowtown Buffalo on the river?

 

 

Yes... Still there, the neighborhood that is.

 

It is just north of the Peace Bridge... Niagara St area... Notice steve's thread about the fire that just happened there... The Black Rock Lock is there (I used to work there for a stint)... Was defined early on by a big black rock out in the river (removed)... The federal lock at Black Rock today is the first lock (western portion) in the NYS Barge Canal (ie: Erie Canal)...

Posted
Yes... Still there, the neighborhood that is.

 

It is just north of the Peace Bridge... Niagara St area... Notice steve's thread about the fire that just happened there... The Black Rock Lock is there (I used to work there for a stint)... Was defined early on by a big black rock out in the river (removed)... The federal lock at Black Rock today is the first lock (western portion) in the NYS Barge Canal (ie: Erie Canal)...

 

Did you have any other thoughts on this issue? :lol:

Posted

Speaking for the entire Southwestern portion of the United States I am honored to say that we will welcome Buffalo water into our homes with open arms.

Posted
Did you have any other thoughts on this issue? :P

 

:lol::wallbash:

 

Ya... Send us some federal money! The project is almost 50 years old here and we have post war wiring, hydraulics, and the thing leaks like a pig... I just spent the last hour shutting one gate down due to a leaky hydraulic seal on one of the OilGear units... We are closed to commercial craft with only one upper gate working... Hopefully tommorrow night (my last midnight before a long weekend) will be totally uneventful!

Posted

What I have no takers on my above plea? :lol:

 

We as a nation can spend a ton of money in Iraq to help restore the "Marsh People's" habitat and way of life after SH drained their land... Yet we can't find a pitance to keep our Constitutionally mandated infrastructure from rotting away while companies have their product stalled awaiting market?

 

Like the Fram commercial... "You can pay me now, or pay me later."

 

:rolleyes::wallbash:

Posted
What I have no takers on my above plea? :lol:

 

We as a nation can spend a ton of money in Iraq to help restore the "Marsh People's" habitat and way of life after SH drained their land... Yet we can't find a pitance to keep our Constitutionally mandated infrastructure from rotting away while companies have their product stalled awaiting market?

 

Like the Fram commercial... "You can pay me now, or pay me later."

 

:rolleyes::wallbash:

 

 

Privatise that canal system, let the chinese buy it, restore it and make money out of it!

Posted
Privatise that canal system, let the chinese buy it, restore it and make money out of it!

 

Since the rivers have been "canalized."... This is to note also:

 

Not sure if you can??... You would have to charge a toll and going back to the Northwest Ordinace of 1787 (which is still held as a precedant in our Constitution carried over from the AoC (articles of Confederation:

 

The Northwest Ordinance of 1787, Articles of Compact, art. IV (reenacted in 1789), provides in relevant part:

The navigable waters leading into the Mississippi and Saint Lawrence, and the carrying places between the same, shall be common highways, and forever free, as well to the inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United States, and those of any other States that may be admitted into the confederacy, without any tax, impost, or duty therefor.

 

 

The free Rivers Doctrine

 

During the 13-year period from 1776 to 1789, the United States of America was governed by the Articles of Confederation and by other enactments, including the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. The Northwest Ordinance established the doctrine (the "Free Rivers Doctrine") that interstate commerce along rivers (the principal means of interstate commerce at that time) shall be "forefver free."

 

On March 4, 1789, our Government commenced operations under the Constitution. Despite the adoption of the Constitution, the Northwest Ordinance was (and still is) in effect with respect to interstate commerce.

 

Two hundred years of jurisprudence have continued the Free Rivers Doctrine. When the Constitution was adopted, the Free Rivers Doctrine was one of the reasons for the inclusion of the Duty of Tonnage Clause. When the Virginia Compact was enacted on December 18, 1789, the Free Rivers Doctrine was embodied in the provision that the use of the Ohio River would be "free." The Virginia Compact, like the Northwest Ordinance, is still in effect.

 

In Gibbons v. Ogden, 22 U.S. 1 (1824), the U.S. Supreme Court expanded the Free Rivers Doctrine by striking down a New York statute that excluded federally licensed boats from operating in New York waters. Congress expressly set forth the Free Rivers Doctrine when it enacted the Rivers and Harbors Appropriation Act of 1884 (now 33 U.S.C. [sections] 5), which prohibits the imposition of any "tolls and operating charges whatsoever" on the Ohio River and other waterways. In Helson v. Kentucky, 279 U.S. 245 (1929), the Court applied the Free Rivers Doctrine when it held that the imposition of a fuel use tax on the portion of fuel consumed in Kentucky by an interstate ferry was an unconstitutional burden on interstate commerce. The Free Rivers Doctrine continues to this day.

Posted
Since the rivers have been "canalized."... This is to note also:

 

Not sure if you can??... You would have to charge a toll and going back to the Northwest Ordinace of 1787 (which is still held as a precedant in our Constitution carried over from the AoC (articles of Confederation:

 

The Northwest Ordinance of 1787, Articles of Compact, art. IV (reenacted in 1789), provides in relevant part:

The navigable waters leading into the Mississippi and Saint Lawrence, and the carrying places between the same, shall be common highways, and forever free, as well to the inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United States, and those of any other States that may be admitted into the confederacy, without any tax, impost, or duty therefor.

 

 

The free Rivers Doctrine

 

During the 13-year period from 1776 to 1789, the United States of America was governed by the Articles of Confederation and by other enactments, including the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. The Northwest Ordinance established the doctrine (the "Free Rivers Doctrine") that interstate commerce along rivers (the principal means of interstate commerce at that time) shall be "forefver free."

 

On March 4, 1789, our Government commenced operations under the Constitution. Despite the adoption of the Constitution, the Northwest Ordinance was (and still is) in effect with respect to interstate commerce.

 

Two hundred years of jurisprudence have continued the Free Rivers Doctrine. When the Constitution was adopted, the Free Rivers Doctrine was one of the reasons for the inclusion of the Duty of Tonnage Clause. When the Virginia Compact was enacted on December 18, 1789, the Free Rivers Doctrine was embodied in the provision that the use of the Ohio River would be "free." The Virginia Compact, like the Northwest Ordinance, is still in effect.

 

In Gibbons v. Ogden, 22 U.S. 1 (1824), the U.S. Supreme Court expanded the Free Rivers Doctrine by striking down a New York statute that excluded federally licensed boats from operating in New York waters. Congress expressly set forth the Free Rivers Doctrine when it enacted the Rivers and Harbors Appropriation Act of 1884 (now 33 U.S.C. [sections] 5), which prohibits the imposition of any "tolls and operating charges whatsoever" on the Ohio River and other waterways. In Helson v. Kentucky, 279 U.S. 245 (1929), the Court applied the Free Rivers Doctrine when it held that the imposition of a fuel use tax on the portion of fuel consumed in Kentucky by an interstate ferry was an unconstitutional burden on interstate commerce. The Free Rivers Doctrine continues to this day.

 

Too bad they forget land roads in that 1787 ordinance, that'd have made interstate tolls unconstitutional!

Posted

You know they charge a toll on the Welland Canal around the Falls? The 6 locks and 2 guard locks that exist there?

 

You think being in Canada has something to do with that? And the push to forever keep it in Canada and not have an "All-American Canal" running from BFLO to Lewiston or abouts...

 

The SeaWay Commission is a joint commision between both Canada and the US... The AoC/NWOrd very well came into play politically with the building of the SeaWay in the late 1950's...

 

No way in hell would they ever build an "All-American Canal!" Even if it was bigger and better than the antiquated Welland which would enable product to get to market faster.

 

The SeaWay made BFLO a "dead-end." 30 years later you see the effect of shipping on the lakes IN THE US a similar decline... IMO, it was built to open TOR up to the world... Well, it in the end had that only redeeming quality... Like the other poster said in the other thread... The SeaWay was built on the cheap... Doing it differently and how our founders intended, be damn with the "weather bugaboo (and others like enviro) things would look and act differently commercially on the lakes.

Posted
Too bad they forget land roads in that 1787 ordinance, that'd have made interstate tolls unconstitutional!

 

They still impose a surcharge on commercial fuel to the tune of about $.20 a gallon to commerical businesses... This goes into the Inland WaterWay Trust Fund... For upkeep and other improvements/maint.

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